JESUIT TREASURES - ARE THEY REAL?

[deducer]

deducer,

Thank you for the correction. Of course I meant Rojas.

As for Jim Hatt making up stories, I have personal knowledge of people making up stories about me, out of whole cloth.
Not saying that Jim did that, but others here know more about those kind of things than I.

Take care,

Joe

Well that's regrettable, but the only thing that this discovery proves is that it demonstrates a pretty strong likelihood that I was wrong about the statue not being Serra, and was wrong to cast aspersions on St. Francis Xavier Parish. We must account for the fact that, however slight the changes are, something may have happened during those four years (1959-1963), or even during construction, causing a change of desire or plan, and a substitute may have hurriedly been made.

It absolutely does not prove that Jim Hatt made up the story, distorted it, or otherwise lied about it.

It also does not prove anything one way or another about what the priest told Wright. Who knows- that priest may have mistook the statue (bell et al.) for being Rojas, and let slip a story he wasn't supposed to share.

 

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[deducer]

The backside with the 1963 date.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies & Gentlemen, usual beverage first ? There is something that has been bothering me for some time. The exact definition of "A reliable source".

I have seen horrible examples to extremely close. from popular authors quoting each other as being a reliable source and vice verse.
'
I have seen things from WW II to the present that I personally experienced that are quoted from a 'reliable source' that I didn't even recognize until I had finished reading the article.

So I suggest a further categorizing of % of possible reliability, if such a thing could ever be achieved..

For example Myself on Tayopa, since I will not produce absolute proof of what I have said on It until further notice, I would assign perhaps a 50% reliability on it's postulated historical side, but 100% on it's physical side.

Dobie, perhaps 25% on the physical, 10 % on its historical side
.
So in the regards to past authors both popular and technical, each would have to be assigned a variable scale depending upon what phase, or point, of a subject they were presenting.

Since we are dealing in historical periods of time, the only absolutely reliable sources would be written plans of constructions such as ships, buildings. It is impossible to honestly quote from published and actual thoughts since many times we ourselves do not know. or tend to excuse or justify ourselves..

As you can obviously see only """ I """ am 100% above question and am a truly reincarnated Jesuit, a yet unknown Saint - for verification just ask Beth, Oro, Joe, or myself.

Seriously, we should never get too involved with a particular Author, unless it is ME, since his work is evolved from many factors that will influence his intended writing.

Remeber, the 'context' of a single word may modify a statement 100%.

Don Jose de La Mancha ( El Santito )

 

[sailaway]

For those that want to research the expansion into the Sonora, Mex.

Zacatecas, Zacatecas - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viceroyalty_of_Peru

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casa_Rosada

http://www.history2u.com/book1_discovery.htm

http://www.lonelyplanet.com/mexico/history

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesuit

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_missions_in_the_Sonoran_Desert

http://www.nps.gov/tuma/historyculture/eusebio-francisco-kino.htm

http://www.sfmuseum.net/bio/jserra.html

http://uair.arizona.edu/item/217865

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apache–Mexico_Wars

http://www.houstonculture.org/mexico/sonora.html

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yaqui_people

http://www.archaeologicalconservancy.org/images/Magazinefilesforindex/5.3Fall01singlesLR.pdf

http://www.archaeologysouthwest.org/pdf/scvnha/chapter04_f.pdf

http://books.google.com/books?id=-Z...EwBjgU#v=onepage&q=padre rojas sonora&f=false

what can you do?
http://www.savingplaces.org/treasures/great-bend-gila#.U0a-klVdXSs

http://www.preservationdirectory.com/HistoricalPreservation/Home.aspx

 

[cactusjumper]

Cactusjumper wrote


and


and


Thank you for providing that info on the linkage of that church to the Franciscans, however it seems rather tenuous; not a clear cut thing, as for instance, if the church had been Franciscan before becoming Jesuit run, as we see in some Franciscan mission churches which have some visual "nod" to the Jesuits whom preceded them. Actually it would have made more sense if the statue in question had been Rojas or any other Jesuit, rather than Serra, which is still peculiar.

Not however earth-shattering, nor will it settle anything of the debate in this topic. As I have limited time to spend in running down anything, this one does not appear to be justified, especially as it now is shown to be known as Serra at least as early as 1963, the church was then only four years old, I don't think we need to look farther.

As to Jim Hatt, the evidence does not point to him as an originator of the story, and he himself stated that he was unsure if it were history or legend. Whomever started this story of the statue being Rojas, it does not look to be Jim Hatt.

If anyone finds an image or depiction of father Rojas, we ought to return to this subject of the statue and do an eyeball comparison however.

To try to tie this back in to topic, I had found contemporary confirmation of the Jesuits owning and operating silver mines in Argentina, which had been referred to some time ago in a study done well after their expulsion, however I forgot to post it that night (it was late already) and this sort of evidence does not seem to help change opinions. If you like I could hunt up the old post which had the story of the Jesuit silver mines in Argentina, and add the reference which was published while the Jesuits were actively operating the mines. In that example you can now have the legend/story of lost silver mines, some found which you can visit, and contemporary confirmation that these mines were owned and run by Jesuits.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, great posts BTW and I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

Roy,

When every argument for the statue being Rojas seems like (tenuous) unsure opinions and conjecture, I think my own arguments are, at least, viable. I have shown a direct link between the church in question and the Franciscans. Beyond that, the church itself states that the statue is of Father Serra.

Once again, I would like to see some evidence of animosity between the Jesuit Order and the Franciscans in........1959.

As for Jesuit mining in South America, I have known that to be true for decades. IMHO, that is the very reason for the crown making such a big point of it in Mexico. Once again, I repeat that the Jesuits in Sonora, as well as the rest of Mexico were just men. Where a man can make a mistake, it will eventually be done. Looking for Jesuit treasure is a great hobby, but I don't think it will put many beans on the table. On the other hand, it will take many off the table.

Just one man's opinion.

Take care,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Little known facts connecting Jesuits and Franciscans:
___________________________________________

[Funnily enough, it was Francis who prompted Ignatius, at least in part, to his conversion. When in 1521, Ignatius, then a vainglorious soldier, was wounded in a battle after some needless derring-do, he was carried home to his family’s castle in Loyola. With too much time on his hands, he asked for some books. But there were none of the chivalric tales he preferred, only—to his dismay—a book on the life of Christ and another on the lives of the saints.

But as the wounded Ignatius, his dreams of military success shattered, read on, something strange happened. When he thought of his old life, of trying to impress others with his exploits, he felt dry afterward. But when he imagined living as simply as the saints did, and devoting his life to God, after his reading was over, he felt happy. Slowly he realized this was one way that God was leading him to choose a more life-giving path. He wrote, “What if I should do what St. Francis did, or what St. Dominic did?

Thus the life of St. Francis of Assisi, with its dramatic renunciation of wealth and loving embrace of “Lady Poverty,” appealed to the wounded soldier as he mused on the path that his life might take. What a favor Francis did for Ignatius.

Last week, almost 500 years later, one of Ignatius’s spiritual sons, Jorge Mario Bergoglio, repaid that favor in part, by taking the name of Francis to begin his pontificate.]

Ignatius also had great respect for St. Dominic, who founded the Dominican Order. He actually went to a Dominican school.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ah Joe, sigh. One must make a clear division between the Mission Jesuit and the corp Jesuits on the mining factor.

Effectively, the Mission Jesuit did not have large treasures or mines, however the Corp Jesuit did and to a huge amount,

This is what I became interested in and eventually proved, to my satisfaction at least.

It also revealed how far and how insidiously the Tentacles from Rom reached.

It is still unfolding.

Cred. 50 %

Your post -->it will take many beans off the table.

100% cred.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Ah Joe, sigh. One must make a clear division between the Mission Jesuit and the corp Jesuits on the mining factor.

Effectively, the Mission Jesuit did not have large treasures or mines, however the Corp Jesuit did and to a huge amount,

This is what I became interested in and eventually proved, to my satisfaction at least.

It also revealed how far and how insidiously the Tentacles from Rom reached.

It is still unfolding.

Cred. 50 %

Your post -->it will take many beans off the table.

100% cred.

Don Jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

Rome's reach is indeed prodigious, but you will need more than your opinion to tie them to Jesuit mining in Sonora. Yes, I do know of some, very few, cases, but they did not produce vast treasures. That will remain my position until you open Tayopa and find the proof that Jesuits were involved.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Roy,


When every argument for the statue being Rojas seems like (tenuous) unsure opinions and conjecture, I think my own arguments are, at least, viable. I have shown a direct link between the church in question and the Franciscans. Beyond that, the church itself states that the statue is of Father Serra.

Certainly your evidence supports the argument that statue is, and always was intended to be of Junipero Serra, however where did this story come from? Why is not Serra's name engraved below it, to remove all question? Why did this church decide to honor a Franciscan, Serra? Can you show other Jesuit churches with statues honoring Franciscans? This in itself is odd.


Cactusjumper also wrote

Once again, I would like to see some evidence of animosity between the Jesuit Order and the Franciscans in........1959.

The evidence points to some level of rivalry from the very beginnings of the various Orders to this day. Not always rancorous for sure, yet some contention continues even in the elections of Popes.

Cactusjumper also wrote

As for Jesuit mining in South America, I have known that to be true for decades. IMHO, that is the very reason for the crown making such a big point of it in Mexico. Once again, I repeat that the Jesuits in Sonora, as well as the rest of Mexico were just men. Where a man can make a mistake, it will eventually be done. Looking for Jesuit treasure is a great hobby, but I don't think it will put many beans on the table. On the other hand, it will take many off the table.

Addressing the last part of these statements first, do you consider 70 million gold escudos to be not worth pursuing? Or even 7500 pesos in silver dating to colonial times? Is treasure hunting not a type of business venture, high risk and high gain potential? All business ventures are a gamble are they not? From treasure hunting to selling shoes - none are a sure thing. Besides, in my own case at least while we have not become wealthy, neither have we starved. I know of a good many businesses which are of less risk than hunting Jesuit treasures, which left the proprietors in bankruptcy.


To add to this, I don't think the discoverers of the Salero, Wandering Jew, Ostrich, Vekol etc became impoverished due to having spent their time hunting "legendary" lost Jesuit mines.


You state that you have acknowledged Jesuit mining in South America for decades? This seems to be at odds with your earlier statements, like this one:

Not one of the historians who has ever repeated the mining stories they have heard from others, has ever produced a single piece of evidence. Not one.

Dec 08, 2009


The Jesuits certainly owned and operated mines in Sonora - the college of San Jose de Matape as a shining example, Pozos which you dismissed out of hand despite the gigantic smelter works constructed by the Jesuits there and the statement by the Pozos city officials that the very first mines claimed in the area were by Jesuits. Even when father Nentvig lists mines belonging to the various missions, and father Segesser complains that he cannot work in the gold and silver mines safely, you stand by this position?


Don Jose de la Mancha wrote, replying to our mutual amigo Joe,

Ah Joe, sigh. One must make a clear division between the Mission Jesuit and the corp Jesuits on the mining factor.


Effectively, the Mission Jesuit did not have large treasures or mines, however the Corp Jesuit did and to a huge amount,


This is what I became interested in and eventually proved, to my satisfaction at least.


It also revealed how far and how insidiously the Tentacles from Rom reached.


It is still unfolding.


Cred. 50 %

I must respectfully disagree, entirely. You should not separate the 'fatherly' padres from either the Coadjutors or any other part of the Order. The padres were in complete control of ALL operations at the missions, as just recently documented in the letters of father Segesser. No operation took place at the missions without the oversight and control of the padres - the priests! At higher levels, as Segesser himself later became Procurator for his area, the control of commerce was simply at a higher level. Not disconnected at all!


Cactusjumper Joe also wrote, in reply to our mutual amigo Don Jose;

Don Jose,


Rome's reach is indeed prodigious, but you will need more than your opinion to tie them to Jesuit mining in Sonora. Yes, I do know of some, very few, cases, but they did not produce vast treasures. That will remain my position until you open Tayopa and find the proof that Jesuits were involved.

Your definition of the area where we MUST show absolute proof is far too slender, and Sonora was not a separate world from Mexico nor Mexico from Spanish colonial America - you have dismissed several Jesuit mining sites in Sonora and apparently only include Pimeria Alta, which region father Nentvig lists several gold and silver mines attached to missions which were not being worked too well due to the danger from enemies, and Segesser mentioning about his being in the silver mountains and yet had few silver eating utensils. The same area with the impressive silver altar and ornaments seen by visitors in San Xavier del Bac, so where exactly are those silver ornaments today Joe? If you can not tell us, then does that not amount to a respectable lost treasure, worth searching for?


On the other hand, are you claiming that the gold mine near Guevavi and other mines mentioned in Arizona by Nentvig, were really Spaniards not Jesuit properties of their missions? If that is your position on these mines, then why did father Nentvig list a LOT of mining sites in a separate chapter of Rudo Ensayo, as being specifically worked by Spaniards?


What do you say the gold and silver mines mentioned by father Segesser and Nentvig produced? Where do you think that output is located? Can you show us where it was spent, or some accounting of exactly where it was disposed of? Why do you suppose the Spanish were SO set on finding the hidden treasures of the Jesuits? Just jealousy and greed mixed with fantasy stories?


I want to understand the pillars of your belief on this topic, which seem very unshakeable indeed. Does it not raise doubts about the veracity of such sources as father Polzer, when we have shown that the Jesuits were actively mining, when he claimed there was practically nothing? Thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

Little known facts connecting Jesuits and Franciscans:
___________________________________________

[Funnily enough, it was Francis who prompted Ignatius, at least in part, to his conversion. When in 1521, Ignatius, then a vainglorious soldier, was wounded in a battle after some needless derring-do, he was carried home to his family’s castle in Loyola. With too much time on his hands, he asked for some books. But there were none of the chivalric tales he preferred, only—to his dismay—a book on the life of Christ and another on the lives of the saints.

But as the wounded Ignatius, his dreams of military success shattered, read on, something strange happened. When he thought of his old life, of trying to impress others with his exploits, he felt dry afterward. But when he imagined living as simply as the saints did, and devoting his life to God, after his reading was over, he felt happy. Slowly he realized this was one way that God was leading him to choose a more life-giving path. He wrote, “What if I should do what St. Francis did, or what St. Dominic did?

Thus the life of St. Francis of Assisi, with its dramatic renunciation of wealth and loving embrace of “Lady Poverty,” appealed to the wounded soldier as he mused on the path that his life might take. What a favor Francis did for Ignatius.

Last week, almost 500 years later, one of Ignatius’s spiritual sons, Jorge Mario Bergoglio, repaid that favor in part, by taking the name of Francis to begin his pontificate.]

Ignatius also had great respect for St. Dominic, who founded the Dominican Order. He actually went to a Dominican school.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

You should cite the source for the above passages which came from this site.

The rivalry today is probably more friendly than anything, but one must remember that Pope Clement VIX who suppressed and very nearly finished off the Jesuits, was himself a Franciscan. That kind of thing doesn't really go away. Even in this century, the Vatican has come down on the Jesuits every now and then, for instance, on Fr. John Sobrino, Fr. Jacques Dupuis, and others (although not for mining!).

 

[cactusjumper]

You should cite the source for the above passages which came from this site.

The rivalry today is probably more friendly than anything, but one must remember that Pope Clement VIX who suppressed and very nearly finished off the Jesuits, was himself a Franciscan. That kind of thing doesn't really go away. Even in this century, the Vatican has come down on the Jesuits every now and then, for instance, on Fr. John Sobrino, Fr. Jacques Dupuis, and others (although not for mining!).

deducer,

I didn't think anyone was keeping track of what I was writing.

Like many others with ancient hatreds, the Catholics have left behind those little tiffs. Now days, they are just like you and I.........well, maybe better than you and I.

Are we all done with the statue theory?

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Cactusjumper wrote

Are we all done with the statue theory?

Until or unless someone can find an image of father Roxas/Rojas, I don't think we can proceed further on it, as it stands I think your contention that it is and always was intended to be Junipero Serra is the best answer. However as to why the builders chose to honor a Franciscan whose main achievements were in a different state from Arizona, this remains puzzling.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

deducer,

For a slightly different view of modern Jesuit views of the Franciscans, I would recommend reading "The First Jesuits" by Father John W. O'Malley, who is probably the foremost authority on Jesuit history. In his book, he writes about the influence of the Franciscan Order on Ignatius of Loyola.

I doubt there is any rancour left among the Jesuits of today, against the Franciscan Order.

As a side note, the cover of his book, is a picture of a painting that is very reminiscent of one done by Ted DeGrazia showing priests going up a winding trail to the Superstitions.

Father O'Malley was kind enough to inscribe my copy at Georgetown University.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Cactusjumper wrote


Until or unless someone can find an image of father Roxas/Rojas, I don't think we can proceed further on it, as it stands I think your contention that it is and always was intended to be Junipero Serra is the best answer. However as to why the builders chose to honor a Franciscan whose main achievements were in a different state from Arizona, this remains puzzling.
Oroblanco

Roy,

Father Serra was not an unknown commodity in Mexico. He spent around nine years with the Indians in the Sierra Madre and seven or eight years in Mexico City. On the other hand, it's true he is best known for his work in the current state of California. It may be, that folks have not forgotten his earlier work in Mexico.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Very long post, extra coffee alert

For our readers, whom do not post often or not at all - thank you to those whom have posted your opinions and conclusions over our lengthy debate, and I wish to bring something more to your attention. The post is very long so I must beg your indulgence, thank you in advance.


Several of our friends here have posted statements which, while granting that there was SOME mining activity by the Jesuits, in their words it was "modest" at most, and while not saying the term "negligible" it is implied as in the hints that it was the efforts of one or two or three Jesuit padres whom were "straying" from the personal vow of poverty and the Royal edicts banning priests and nuns from mining activities.


To contradict this view, we need only look again at the Rudo Ensayo of father Juan Nentvig, SJ, a Jesuit priest whom was working in northern Mexico and the frontier area in the time period just previous to the Jesuit expulsion of 1767; in his book describing Sonora of his day, he broke down the descriptions into various chapters, titling one chapter to cover the Jesuit missions and their properties, and another one for the Spanish mines and settlements, another for the geography etc. The reason I am posting this large extract is to highlight that there were a large number of Jesuit mines, some of which produced large amounts of silver and gold, it was not some marginal operation nor little holes where a man might dabble in mining on weekends. For your consideration, read on:

Mátape is a principal mission under the direction of Father Jacobo Sedelmayr at 29 degrees, 20 minutes latitude and 265 degrees, 8 minutes longitude and is twenty leagues north of Tecoripa. Its parishioners are Pimas, Eudebes, and Jovas. It has two dependent missions: Nácori two leagues to the southwest and Alamos seven leagues to the northwest. (It was at Mátape that the first Negro slaves were brought into the Sonora province in 1672–73 by Daniel Angelo Marras, S.J.)

Note that NO mention is made of the silver mines owned by the college of Matape, but Nentvig did bother to mention that the first Negro slaves were brought into Sonora here by a Jesuit, Danial Angelo Marras. What labor do we suppose those African slaves were put to? Sheep herding, perhaps?

Huásabas is a main mission with Father Juan Nentvig in charge who is also rector of this group of missions. San Ignacio de Oputo, the dependent mission, lies ten leagues to the north. Both are peopled by Opatas and have in their neighborhood numerous deserted mines, such as San Cristóbal five leagues to the east and San Patricio at nearly the same distance to the west.

Nentvig mentions "numerous" deserted mines in HIS mission area. He does not list them as Spanish. Continuing,

Toward the north, three leagues away,is the abandoned mining settlement of Nori, and nine leagues beyond is San Juan del Río. The village of Guachinera lies fourteen leagues northeast, and the mining settlement of Nacozari fourteen leagues to the northwest. The Fronteras presidio is twenty leagues north-northwest of Oputo.

Again, these mining settlements are NOT listed as Spanish. To continue, Nentvig proceeds to tell us of still more mines owned by the missions:

The dependent mission of San Ignacio de Oputo is located ten leagues north on the right bank of the Río Grande and is much exposed to the incursions of the Apaches. Its soil is better than that of the main mission of Huásabas, yielding besides the products already mentioned, corn, 300 fanegas for one of seed, and wheat, twenty-five to thirty for one. Of the former, less than one fanega is sown for the mission, and of the latter, eight to ten fanegas of seed are planted for the two pueblos, Huásabas and Oputo. More extensive food-producing fields are available that remain untilled because of the scarcity of natives to work them, difficulties with dams, irrigation canals, and the Apache menace.


For similar reasons the mission had to abandon a beautiful truck-farm watered by a spring. This truck-farm was located half a league west of Oputo at the foot of a mountain and kept the mission supplied with greens, legumes, and various fruits throughout the year.


In the vicinity of Oputo there are many silver mines which are abandoned because of the many outrages committed by the Apaches, such as what happened at Nori, three leagues north of Oputo, and at San Juan del Río, nine leagues beyond in the same direction. Numerous veins with good metal showings have been located southeast, southwest, and northwest of Oputo at distances of from four to fifteen leagues. The color of the mass as well as the night flashes visible during the rainy season are indicative of mineral deposits, but the utter poverty of the residents and the constant enemy danger hamper their being worked. Similar flashes occur in the environs of Huásabas, and the deposits remain untouched for the same reasons. Two rich mines that had been very productive when the Apaches were not coming in so large numbers or so often are now abandoned. One is the San Cristóbal, five leagues to the southwest near the Culebrilla Pass in the vicinity of Tonibabi and within sight of the road. Although it was not easily worked because of the hardness of the rock, it used to yield, and would yet, about half silver. The other mine, the San Patricio, an equal distance to the west, is also idle.

Talk persists among the natives that in the neighborhood of the Culebrilla Pass there is a deposit of virgin silver from which an old man dug up what he needed. He carried no mining tools, only a chopping knife to cut off the portion that he deemed sufficient to cover his immediate needs. Then he melted the mass into slugs in order to disguise the richness of the ore. The old man was accompanied by a boy who served as a sentry to warn of the approach of anyone by throwing a rock, but the old man left the boy at a point where the location of the deposit could not be seen. It has not been possible to learn the location of the deposit from either the old man or the boy.


Another such silver deposit is said to exist on the skirts of the eastern mountain opposite and within sight of the Huásabas Mission. It was thought that the exact location was known to an Indian who died in 1760. However, there is a belief among the natives that he who reveals the site of a mine will soon die. Therefore, a native will not show a mine to a Spaniard for any price, regardless of how advantageous it may be to him, the native, even if the missionary pledges the fulfillment of promises made and the assurance that his life will not be shortened but the Almighty will prolong it if he has the courage to ignore a superstition more fit for old women than brave, sensible men.


The Indian who died in 1760 was half persuaded to show a Spaniard the location of a vein so abounding in silver that the sample he brought flattened when pounded, but while on the way, the Indian must have changed his mind, because when they reached the spot where the sample had supposedly been found, there was no sign of such a vein. After digging all over the hill and finding nothing but dead earth, the Spaniard realized he had been deceived and gave up the search.


During the last two years placer gold has been found on the right bank of the Río Grande in three different locations not far from Oputo, but the nuggets were small. Also, the natives are inexperienced at washing the alluvial deposits and unwilling to do so. Rather, they are fonder of roaming about than seeking wealth. They depart for distant places and return poorer after many days away, and by then their scanty crops have been lost. Richer placers producing larger flakes or grains have been found in the vicinity of El Alamo north of Tepache, and although the residents of Tepache have wealth so close at hand, they prefer to subsist on roots and wild fruits rather than travel three or four leagues to obtain the means to live not only decently but lavishly.


Five leagues north of Huásabas and slightly more than a gunshot east of the road to Oputo there is a vein-like deposit over six yards wide that encircles the base of a small hill which runs from north to south on the eastern side. This vein produces round, stone objects that vary in size from a hen's egg to a cocoanut. The stones are red streaked with white veins and resemble jasper10 in the rough. Many stones are loose on the surface of the ground; others are entirely submerged. Some of the smaller ones are in clusters of three, four, and six or even more and attached to one another. All of them, large and small, have a pocket in the center filled with a white somewhat yellowish substance which is almost transparent except for a film that covers it like a coating of turpentine. The substance sometimes becomes detached from the walls of the pocket. When this happens, the stone will rattle when shaken. When opened, the cores in most of them are found crystallized in angular patterns so well united, so resplendent and perfectly finished, one would think they had been made by a lapidary. These crystals are set in a hard, flint-like, pearl-bluish, or purple colored substance, difficult, if not impossible, to detach for experimental purposes without defacing them. It has been said that in the beginning this core was of a consistency similar to the white of an egg, and in 1752 I had in my hands a specimen in which the core had not entirely hardened. But upon exposure to the air, it soon petrified. It is evident that this is a rare and new product of nature which, although it brings no revenue to the royal treasury, could be of interest to investigators who, rising above materialism, ascensiones in corde suo would admire and praise the power, wisdom, abundance, and beauty of Him who controls all.


Furthermore, around the Huásabas Mission there are abundant deposits of alum and chalk and two hot springs. One is half a league north, and the other is one and a half leagues west. In Oputo there is a similar hot spring half a league west which contains quantities of red ochre of excellent quality.

This is a rather detailed report of the mines and mineral deposits of the mission and dependent areas, all of which are mission property as no Indians were allowed to own property, and as pointed out, Nentvig listed the Spanish mines in a separate chapter or makes it a point to state when a mine belongs to the Spanish rather than the missions. As an example,

The main mission of Bacadéhuachi lies at 30 degrees, 53 minutes latitude, 266 degrees, 46 minutes longitude and has two dependent missions: Nácori ten leagues east, and Mochopa two leagues further in the same direction. Father Manuel Aguirre is in charge of the mission, and its inhabitants are Tarahumara and Jova Indians.


The Tarahumara ranch of Sátechi twelve leagues farther away is also under the jurisdiction of Bacadéhuachi. Twelve leagues beyond in the depopulated town of Guainopa there used to be rich silver mines that were worked by a few Spaniards. Another silver mine with its own smelter existed about three leagues northeast of Bacadéhuachi.

We might also take note of the rather remarkable story Nentvig includes about lost mines and the padres direct involvement in trying to learn the secrets thereof. Note too that Nentvig was taking notice of any and all mineral deposits like alum or salt, which might be turned to a profit for the missions, and Jesuit Order.


to continue;

There were some silver mines being worked near Bavispe when the Apaches were not so much the masters of the country. Now, because we are in the adjacent mountains and at the last mission of this rectorate, we see the Apache fires almost every night.


<snip>


Once at the pass, we must travel six more leagues to Bacoachi, dependent mission of Arizpe where the renowned gold placers are located. These placers have produced nuggets of two, three, and four pounds but are not so productive at present because the prospectors have been frightened away by the death-dealing Apaches.


From Bacoachi we will follow the course of the Sonora River to another dependent mission of Arizpe: Chinapa, eight leagues to the southwest, leaving the real de minas of Basochuca five leagues away to our left and the real of Bacanuchi four leagues away to our right. The Cananea mines are eight leagues to the northwest. Traveling in a southwesterly direction, we will pass the cattle ranch of Guepavérachi which is owned by gente de razón, and three leagues beyond we will reach the main mission of Arizpe which is located on the right bank of the Sonora River at 31 degrees, 30 minutes latitude and 264 degrees, 55 minutes longitude. Its missionary is the Visitor-General Father Carlos de Roxas, with whose gracious permission we may rest a couple of days, and being in a more populated area than that through which we have been traveling, we can move about with less apprehension.

Note the ranch specifically stated as owned by "gente de razon", also the mention of our padre so recently discussed Roxas, and the then-famous silver mines of Cananea, whose current city govt states were first opened by the Jesuits - and note that Cananea is NOT listed as owned by Spaniards nor gente de razon.

West of Arizpe six or seven leagues is Santa Rosalía, a site that once had very rich gold mines.
Continuing our journey, we enter the abandoned real of Tetoachi three leagues south, and three leagues still farther by a watery road we reach Sinoquipe, a dependent mission of Banámichi which is five leagues south. About halfway between Banámichi and Sinoquipe we pass the abandoned real of Motepore.


Banámichi, the principal mission, is located on the left bank of the Sonora River at 31 degrees, 2 minutes latitude and 264 degrees, 56 minutes longitude and is administered by Father Francisco Javier Villaroya, S.J. Three leagues farther south we pass through Hüépac, also a dependent mission of Banámichi, and about three leagues beyond we pass by the real of Sonora. One league farther brings us to Aconchi, a main mission administered by Father Nicolás Perera, S.J., at 30 degrees, 56 minutes latitude by 264 degrees, 56 minutes longitude. Then we continue our journey in a southerly direction and reach Babiácora four leagues farther on. Three leagues beyond on our left we pass a small place named Concepción, a dwelling place of Spaniards, and still farther down the river we reach the house of Núñez where he and his family and servants reside.


From here the Sonora River turns westward and follows a winding course through mountain cuts and narrows which we must cross and recross more than thirty times, traveling over rocky slopes for more than ten leagues before we reach level ground. Finally we arrive at Ures, the head mission in charge of Father Andrés Michel since the death of Father Felipe Ségesser [September 28, 1761]. Its geographical position is 30 degrees latitude by 264 degrees, 20 minutes longitude. Its dependent mission, Santa Rosalía, is twelve leagues to the southwest. The real of San José de Gracia is seven leagues west, and the deserted real of Antúnez is six leagues northwest. San Miguel de Horcasitas is about ten leagues west of Ures, and Nacameri, the dependent mission of Opodepe, is six leagues northeast of Antúnez. Nacameri is inhabited by Eudebes, while the Indians in Opodepe are Pimas. Opodepe,31 where we are going out of curiosity, at 30 degrees, 40 minutes latitude and 264 degrees, 3 minutes longitude, is six leagues almost due north of Nacameri. One league north is the real of San José, and two leagues beyond, there used to be a settlement of gente de razón, breeders of cattle. The mission of Opodepe, ministered by the Rector Francisco Loaiza, has silver and gold mines within its district, the latter having the reputation of producing ore with the highest fineness, and I have seen a piece of gold without rocky mixture weighing seven ounces.

Do we need to keep pointing this out - thus far the number of mines is certainly NUMEROUS and belonged to the Jesuit missions, NOT to the Spaniards nor gente de razon. Does anyone wish to take the position that Nentvig really meant that all these mines listed under his chapter on the Jesuit missions are Spanish and NOT Jesuit owned? If so, why bother to list the Spanish mines in a completely separate chapter? All of these listed above, are in the chapter titled and about the Jesuit missions in Sonora/Pimeria. We might also take note of the census info, which shows VERY few Spaniards or gente de razon living in the various missions' districts.


I am not throwing stones at anyone for NOT picking up on this separation of the Jesuit mission mines being listed in a completely different chapter from the Spanish mines, for I did not pick up on it for some time either. Nentvig does not tell all about the Jesuit mines either, for example he mentions nothing about la Esmerelda, an important silver mine of San Xavier del Bac and which probably helped provide the impressive silver seen in the mission church by later visitors, only to be hidden away by the Indians when the padres left, which dates to Kino's day as he was shown a piece of the ore on his very first visit there.


My reason for posting this huge extract is to point up that this is not an inconsiderable amount of mining activity. It does not match the sheer number of mines of the Spanish, but is certainly more than negligible or the efforts of one or two Jesuits whom were "straying" from the personal vow of poverty. These missions were expected to become self-supporting, not needing the Royal subsidy, though the Jesuits managed to keep that subsidy going and getting exemptions from paying taxes on properties for many decades; with that goal of self-sufficiency in mind, the Jesuits put their efforts into every and any kind of commerce or agriculture to try to make the operations financially sound.

You can read this entire chapter online at:
The Jesuit Missions
The entire book is online as well, just follow the link on that page, it is one of the best books on Sonora and southern Arizona of the colonial period in my opinion.




Sorry for the long-winded post, good luck and good hunting amigos I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

I don't really need to go online to read Rudo Ensayo, as I have had the book for many years now. I have read it a number of times and missed the parts where Father Nentvig states that the missionaries were actually working the many mines he mentions.

Is it your contention that a district in which a mission is located, is owned (exclusively) by the mission?

Thanks,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

Roy,

I don't really need to go online to read Rudo Ensayo, as I have had the book for many years now. I have read it a number of times and missed the parts where Father Nentvig states that the missionaries were actually working the many mines he mentions.

Is it your contention that a district in which a mission is located, is owned (exclusively) by the mission?

Thanks,

Joe

My last post was not addressed to you specifically, many people do not own a copy of Rudo Ensayo. I own a copy too, but it is much easier and faster to copy from online sources than to hand-type everything, and our readers cannot very well read MY copy nor yours. Where did I state that Nentvig made such a statement, which is hardly needed anyway? If not the padres, whom do you say was working those mines listed under the title The Jesuit Missions which are not specified as worked by Spanish? For that matter, Nentvig does not state the padres were herding cattle and sheep either - are you saying that they then must not have been ranching livestock?

I did not make that second statement either - do you hold that the district in which a mission was located, belonged to Spaniards? Clearly the mines are linked to the missions, and the Spanish mines and settlements are listed in a separate chapter. The exceptions where Spaniards were working mines in the vicinity of the missions, Nentvig makes it a point to specify. Remember, the Indians were not allowed to own property in that time, and ALL commerce from and to a mission had to go through the padres. This includes cattle, sheep, wheat, corn, hides and precious metals. We know from Segesser's letters that the Spaniards were in the habit of visiting the missions to eat and take livestock without ever offering to pay for it, which flies in the face of the supposed main income to the missions from sales of such things to the Spanish. Besides, the land grants with each mission were pretty impressive in size, and note that Nentvig lists missions and dependent missions located up to thirty miles away from the 'Main" mission in some districts. How can a dependent mission be located ten or more leagues away from its main mission, if it is all Spanish property and settled by Spaniards?

It appears that you may be 'reading between the lines' some statements which are not there nor intended. Perhaps the way I phrased things is misleading - the point attempted to show was to list some examples of mines owned by missions, and that they are fairly numerous - much more than "modest" or casual. Nothing ​more, nor less than that.

We could point to an example where a discovery of silver, was granted to Spaniards rather than the mission nearby in the same district, namely the Planchas de Plata. Apparently this ruling was not viewed happily by the padres. The mines played out in a few years and the Spaniards left.

Perhaps a comparison of the census info which I think you have, done in or shortly after 1768, along with Nentvig's description of the missions versus the Spanish settlements might help point up what areas are "Indians" and thus not owned by Indians but by the Jesuits as the legal "guardians" of the Indians. You will see a number of mines in the Indian/mission areas with few or no Spaniards present.

I notice that you neglected to answer any of my questions posed earlier, an oversight? It does not matter, have to hit the sack so will leave you in peace for the night.

Good luck and good hunting to you all, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[deducer]

deducer,

I didn't think anyone was keeping track of what I was writing.

Like many others with ancient hatreds, the Catholics have left behind those little tiffs. Now days, they are just like you and I.........well, maybe better than you and I.

Are we all done with the statue theory?

Good luck,

Joe

The Roman Catholic church has most certainly not let go of all of its "ancient hatreds" especially its religiocentrism and intolerance of differing worldviews.

Until some new discovery comes to light, the statue theory is shelved for the time being. The postcard discovery settles the issue for 1963 and beyond, but we still have no information about the first four years or the construction. If the statue was never intended to be Rojas, then why is the church shutting out my inquiries?

It is still mystifying why a church from one order should celebrate an individual from another order whose accomplishments happened in another state, and who is associated with an object (bell) which was not a significant part of his life. Nothing Serra did ever benefited the society of Jesuits.

Seems to me a far better candidate for the 3rd statue would have been Fr. Sedelmayr for his exploring prowess (he was in the Phoenix area after all), or even better, Juan Bautista de Anza I or his son, for their substantial contributions to the society.

 

[sailaway]

I believe Oro has proved the mining of the Jesuits.Yet I ask what was their greatest treasure they would have hidden? Would it be the Black ORB, the Chimera? Are they related?
Chimeras and Mosaics | Science | Strange Days | Fortean Times

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Fellow coffee slurpers and addicts: First, I would like you to clarify just what would be considered a large treasure in 'those' days, not our present, extremely inflated, values.

50 centavos was considered a normal monthly wage in the 1800's, in the 1500's ?

Second, Yes the various missions did mine, a conspicuous example was Baroyeca in Sonora. Check on it.

Third, I disagree with my normally infallible ORO in that while the mission Priest did normally have full control of his area, he always was subject to higher authority sent by Rome on mining matters, or 'any' subject in furthering the Jesuit society.

Remember. They were originally a Military order, and as such the area commander is always subject to higher command.

So the more valuable mines were operated outside of the Areas immediate command, many times without his supposed knowledge, in fact, he many times was not in the need to know lineup.

However, unfortunately for him, he was also in the line of visible wealthy business people when his area finally got to full production. Since he personally had a vow of poverty, all values were destined for his church etc, As usual this managed to be a bit exaggerated hence the hunt for Red October thingie when they were expelled.

As for Jesuit mining openly in South America, but supposedly not in North America, this was due entirely to the rulings of the council of the Indies who were the direct representatives of the King , they made the rules and advised him directly.

Why the two different groups had such divergent basic ideas on the Mining is questionable. For example why did the king order against mining, not once but various times when the Jesuits were freely mining everywhere else in the known world except North America, and continued to do so ?.

Will save the rest for later.but think for a moment, by mining the Society had the means to advance their group - the one and true group - over the other that had a bit of a problem in seeing the truth and continued in their slightly twisted versions of the Truth ?

Would you hesitate for a second, since both the King, and opposing religious orders believed a mistaken doctrine, not the 'true' data that your group teaches

The classic "the end justifies the means ".

Don jose de La Mancha