just a couple "little",points .....

[kuger]

Here is what I would call a Bird point....

 

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[GatorBoy]

Ask Larson to show you some scrapers.. I could show you many myself.. small as a dime is nothing new.

 

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[kuger]

....one other thing you will learn about archeologists(I have know MANY)they are seldom allowed to "rock the boat",or to down show something that their Proffessor or some other well known archie has "found".....research that guy in Egypt you always see on TV...look into what his rep. with other archies are,read up on the Red Headed Giant people of the Great Basin and Love Lock Cave,read into the mystery dog lke animals found in Love Lock cave and see how hey were dismissed by archeoplogist as coyotes.I have HELD the pelt of the animal found(made into a quiver)and have killed coyotes proffessionally for over 35 years....its by no means a COYOTE...yea,I am impressed by archies!!!!

 

[kuger]

Ask Larson to show you some scrapers.. I could show you many myself.. small as a dime is nothing new.

..stemmedBreak em out my friend....serrated?Lets see em!!A scraper that sized(I have one or hundred too)is held between the thumb and forefinger.....a hafted scrapr is hafted to exert down weight....your theory is majorly flawed

 

[kuger]

....since you like reading .....read the Archeological Report of the Love Lock Cave Excavations,and the Book,"In the Shadow of Fox Peak",those are two good starters....see how fact differs from the Archi report,then we can talk about the Indians in my area

 

[GatorBoy]

I'm not going to ague about this any longer.
You must be right...everyone but you is wrong.
Nice bird point!

 

[GatorBoy]

..stemmedBreak em out my friend....serrated?Lets see em!!A scraper that sized(I have one or hundred too)is held between the thumb and forefinger.....a hafted scrapr is hafted to exert down weight....your theory is majorly flawed

That's why I think it was a cutting tool.
Have a nice day

 

[kuger]

....a cutting tool less than the size of a dime?Now what then would the use be of hafting itThink dude!!!!Talk about know it all,not once can you show me where I have acted like I know anything about about anywhere but where I have spent my life....you cant say that

 

[kuger]

Sometimes sinew and pitch was waded on a blank shaft..sometimes the shaft was made for the purpose

View attachment 863561

There's some good reading about all of this in many archaeological documents.
You're free to believe what you like.
The term "bird point" is just a misconception started by collectors.
The Lizard hunting is also explained specifically in several writings.
Did you ever think about the fact you would break every point with every missed shot if using tiny stone points basically aiming them at the ground?

#1 as I told you before they are often used as adornment and that has been archioligically proven,and #2 the Great Basin is largely sandy.....


GB...I did what you advised and came across this....interesting!
http://www.fieldandstream.com/blogs/gun-nuts/2013/04/bird-points-werent-birds

 

[1320]

one other thing....I have never ever in 30 years seen a hafted scraper in any collection ncluding mine from this area where this came from....and the stem wouldnt be smaller than a pencil,a small amount of pressure would snap it immediatly

First of all, I come not to argue nor take sides on this matter....If we assume that this piece was hafted in the traditional manner, straight up and down (shaft and stem in aligment) then yes, an arguement could be made against being a hafted scraper. On the other hand, if it were hafted laterally, the stem stresses shift (physics) and if embedded into the hafting medium far enough, stem stress is eliminated completely and moves to the shoulders of the tool. There is one simple test that proves this and it's been done time and time again so don't waste anything from your respective collections to prove it to yourselves! LOL.

The test is this: Attempt to break a stem by up and down force.....easily done. Now, try breaking a stem using side to side force....no so easy. In simpleton terms, the stem of the tool becomes more a part of the structural integrity in a side to side attempt.

Now, to further deduct or include possible uses of this tool, one must not overlook the obvious...the flake pattern on the business end. Most would argue that a small, barbed edged tool would be used for cutting/scoring soft wood. If this was the intended purpose of this tool, it likely would have been hafted laterally, 'cause that is just the best dang way to cut (saw) wood.

Don't get me wrong, my mind is open to the blunt theory as well, seems logical in a lot of respects.....

 

[kuger]

......I removed that statement I made....because it is not entirly true.....I have seen hafted scrapers and even have a few......just none,stemmed...serrated,or as small as dime.

 

[old digger]

Wonderful assemblage of small points! If my wife would let me I would trade you one of ''her small points for that 1853 seated dime, but then I would really be sleeping in the doghouse.

 

[monsterrack]

I can't say I know it all or who is wrong are right, all I can go by is the info I have from life and books. The best book that I know of on native American plains Indians is The Mystic Warriors Of The Plains by Thomas E. Mails I consider it the bible on plains indian tribes, and that is just me. This is a page from that book on arrows.View attachment 863850 K and L is what they used for small game.

 

[kuger]

I can't say I know it all or who is wrong are right, all I can go by is the info I have from life and books. The best book that I know of on native American plains Indians is The Mystic Warriors Of The Plains by Thomas E. Mails I consider it the bible on plains indian tribes, and that is just me. This is a page from that book on arrows.View attachment 863850 K and L is what they used for small game.

Fantastic book,I have it as well ...after taking my Buffalo (story already posted)I beleive differently from what the book says about all small points



Old Digger....if you PM me your adress I can maybe see what I can do

 

[kuger]

Ughhhhhh!!!I have pics of those too!!!!The ones I know of are near Alder Mont. and are known as the War Lodges,unfortunatly they seemed to have advanced decay in the last 15 years,but are for sure over 120 years old and possibly much older...and still standing.Now I gotta remeber where I have those pictures!!

I recently heard somebody from New York bought the surrounding land(They are on National Forest)and shut off access to the road up there......that is becoming real common and burns my butt!!

I will tell ya in PM where they are

 

[old digger]

I know I am getting a little off track here!

''I recently heard somebody from New York bought the surrounding land(They are on National Forest)and shut off access to the road up there......that is becoming real common and burns my butt!!''

YES! It is getting a lot out of hand with all these out of stater's coming out here with all their big money and buying up these larger properties and paying off the county commissioners to close down the local county roads that have been legal access roads for 100 years.

 

[unclemac]

times they are a changing....you need to read The Adventures of Captain Bonnevillewritten in 1837 by Washington Irving (I kid you not). easy to find book on Amazon or the library (I get the large print version sos I can actually read the darn thing)

If you have tramp the west like I have (and I expect you have) you will recognize the places he describes. But what is so darn amazing is he is describing places you have been to....but....let me tell you....it was a different world.

here read this blurb about it... The Adventures of Captain Bonneville: Washington Irving: 9780792237433: Amazon.com: Books

 

[kuger]

Mac,or anybody else for that matter if your ever back in Klammath Falls and have not....you must go to Gene Favvell's Museum(if its still open)hands down the most incredible,and fantastic assemblage of arrowheads ever seen anywhere.Gene was a good friend of my grandfather and they spent more than a few hours looking for points

 

[unclemac]

I will make the effort....Klammath Falls is not too far out of my way on the way to Reno...always wanted to drive 66....and right back atcha....the museum in Cashmere WA (where those nasty applets and cotlets come from) is worth the trip too. And one of the best displays of Columbia River gem point is in (I kid you not) a restaurant in Yakima called Miner's drive in!

 

[kuger]

I will make the effort....Klammath Falls is not too far out of my way on the way to Reno...always wanted to drive 66....and right back atcha....the museum in Cashmere WA (where those nasty applets and cotlets come from) is worth the trip too. And one of the best displays of Columbia River gem point is in (I kid you not) a restaurant in Yakima called Miner's drive in!

.....yep and the Wigwam Restaraunt in Fernley Nev.Much of the display was private owned and I heard a lot of the folks came and got em,but I havent been by in a few years so I dont know??Fantastic display.....nothing match's Favvells though