Large amount of Gold removed from Superstition Mountain in 1906?

[treasurejack]

I just came upon this in a book that was copyrighted in 1954 and revised in 1964. The book is titled: Superstition Mountain and its famed Dutchman's Lost Mine, it was written by Barney Barnard and he claims that everything in the book has been thoroughly researched.

In the book he claims that in 1906 Geronimo tried to bribe prison officials by promising to show them where one million dollars in loot was hidden in a cave in Superstition Mountain in exchange for his right to die in his beloved mountains. It goes on to say that the loot was recovered by the U.S. Government. Just passing this along.

 

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[cactusjumper]

TJ,

Not many Dutch Hunters are going to give much credence to Barnard's books. While he was liked and respected, his books are interesting to read, but he called Joe Deering "John Deering" and Jacob Waltz....."Jacob Walzer".

The story you related has been around a long time, and is repeated by writers trying to add a little "color" to their books. It begins like this: "Geronimo, the most treacherous of all Apache chieftains, died in a U.S. prison in 1906. He escaped several times but was always recaptured."

Geronimo died on the 17th. of February, 1909. He had ridden his horse into Lawton to sell some bows an arrows on Feb. 11. He had someone buy him a bottle of whiskey and got drunk. Trying to ride back to his farm, after dark, he fell off his horse just short of his home. He laid in the cold night air all night laying partially in a creek. He died from complications of pneumonia.

Some would call Fort Sill a prison, but it was like no prison I know of.

There was a lot of "color" in Barnard's books.

Joe

 

[treasurejack]

Thanks cactus,.....So you don't believe any "loot" was removed in 1906?

 

[cactusjumper]

TJ,

I don't disbelieve it, nor do I believe it. I doubt it is true.

I posted two pictures showing some (not all) of my books on the Apache. I am a fan of their history.....written almost entirely by white men and women.

Joe

 

[treasurejack]

TJ,

I don't disbelieve it, nor do I believe it. I doubt it is true.

I posted two pictures showing some (not all) of my books on the Apache. I am a fan of their history.....written almost entirely by white men and women.

Joe

Good point. There is an old saying that suggest something in the order of, "to the victors go the spoils, so written history is usually half right." I think that statement is probably accurate more often then not.

 

[cactusjumper]

TJ,

"to the victors go the spoils....". I agree completely with that philosophy.

Joe

 

[cactusjumper]

Randy,

Actually there was something that Geronimo wanted more. His greatest desire was to kill Mexicans and steal just about everything they had. Second to that, he wanted to kill the "White Eyes" and steal just about everything they had. Third......He just wanted to be free from both. In that, he failed miserably.

Joe

 

[Springfield]

TJ,

I don't disbelieve it, nor do I believe it. I doubt it is true.

I posted two pictures showing some (not all) of my books on the Apache. I am a fan of their history.....written almost entirely by white men and women.

Joe

Most of the available Apache lore of course is written from the perspective of the invaders, many by the military participants. While enlightening and well worth reading, it's kind of like watching Fox News.

Below are a handful of Apache-related sources that give another perspective of the historical period. Ball's esteemed books are compilations of interviews with the surviving Apaches who rode with Victorio, Nana, Geronimo, et al. Nino Cochise was a 'lost' Apache who remained in the Sierra Madre following the surrender of most of his people. If you only want one book on the topic, Roberts' book is possibly the best overview of the struggle. Sweeney's book profiles the greatest Apache chief of them all. Geronimo was a notorious liar and nothing said by him or attributed to him can be believed at face value. He was the white eye's poster child for "bad Indian", but interestingly, many, many Apaches hated him too for bringing so much grief into their lives. By the way, Geronimo's beloved mountains were certainly not the Superstitions - it was the Gila River headwaters area.

In the Days of Victorio, Eve Ball, ISBN 0-8165-0401-6
Indeh, Eve Ball, ISBN 0-08061-2165-3
The First Hundred Years of Nino Cochise, Ciye "Nino" Cochise, ISBN 0-0200-71830-4
Once They Rode Like The Wind, David Roberts, ISBN 0-671-88556-1
Mangas Coloradas: Chief of the Chiricahua Apaches, Edwin R. Sweeney, ISBN 0-8061-30636

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

And Mexico wasn't even in his territory. In fact the early Apace just lived by killing nad robbing. He was a preditor that preyed upon all of his neghbors. Today I have many Apache friends, our Surveyor is full blooded Apace and lives in Chihuaua. Chih.

Don Jose de La ancha

 

[BudP]

'Apache' is a Mexican word that tries to give the same feel as.....white words like 'Honkey' or 'N@$^*r' (funny, the site blocked the typed word). The 'People' were limbs of the 'Dineh' tree. Granted, these 'Savages' were not house-broken to white-man standards and certainly part of a long line of 'Conquerors' of the area. They were merely trying to hold what they had taken many generations before.

It tickles me when I read or hear stories of the 'Red Man' who keeps quiet about riches of gold, silver and turquoise for spiritual reasons. Folks.....That was true five generations ago. At this date we have, long since, arrived at a state of greed that matches anyone. Do not believe that these stories of 'lost treasures' that 'Indians' hold sacrosanct are anything but crap. We love money as much as anyone!!!

In case you wonder, My Dad was 1/4 Scott-3/4 Cherokee. My mother was full-blood Yaqui(cousin to the Dineh/Apache). I was raised in central/South AZ. I spent my youth in close proximity to full-blood 'Apache's' who remembered or were told by their parents of a better time. I look at myself, not as a half-breed but a hybrid. There is a difference.

A little FYI. At times when the full-blood 'injun' kids would be on my ass, my Mother would tell me a story. Dineh never beat their kids. Instead, when they were bad, they would be told that if they did not be good, the 'Yaqui would come in the night and take them'. I used that one more than once; seems the Yaqui were supposed to be a bit.....cannablistic. Don't know if thats true but it worked for me.

I usually don't participate in ethnic garbage but I thought you might find a half-breed's take on Indian Treasure and whether you can depend on our not finding it, before you get there, interesting.

Bud

 

[treasurejack]

"Slave markets"....it amazes me that so much has been documented, published, and even "movied" in regards to the black slavery era, and yet there has been very little told in regards to the horrendous Indian slave markets that took place in the southwest during the Spanish occupation of that region.

 

[the blindbowman]

i find this topic interesting for a few reasons . one its always nice to hear of legends in the area . but i also keep in mind the 1959 story about the man that broke his leg and latter died from it . if what he stated was true and the guardain or statue was still in the tunnle .. than its most likely so is the treasure trove ....if it was the same gold as the topic .. as for the apache i dont judge intellagenets by how a preson reads or writes ...the apache may have been defending what they beleave . maybe in some way they beleaved they had won the holly place in battle and this gave them the right to clam it ...i have little room to talk about these things i am part mohawk and eating the hearts of those that were beat in battle is nothing new to ...

 

[arkhunter]

good one bob

 

[the blindbowman]

thats funny you say it like that . from your piont of veiw the white man won ...lol they did not , Geronimo did . he died with honer and you have no idea of what honer is if you beleave he would not go to his grave with the wisdom of where the treasure cave was .. that was the whole piont of his surrender, he did not surrender, his white hair ask him to ! can i prove that yes . i have finaly finished my research and i can prove with out any dout that there is a treasure cave ...and that Gerinimo was protecting it even at the cost of his own decreass and dis honer ,he was ask to take the location of the treasure cave to his death .. i beleave he did just what he was asked by his chiffs ...on expedition 3 i will prove what i have stated is fact ....

 

[cactusjumper]

The Apache lived what they knew and, in that sense, they lived a life of honor. Living in honor depends on the generations of history that you are a product of. The Apache of the seventeen and early eighteen hundreds were at the pinnacle of that history.

They were never the best warriors, many tribes beat them on a regular basis, but they were survivors in a land where they were outnumbered and outfought. That is how they were moved out of parts of New Mexico and into Arizona. They were chased out of the better places by....others. Those "better places" were in buffalo country.

Geronimo was feared by many Apache. He had Power.....and that swayed many of his people. They would not necessarily seek him out, but they would not resist him when he forced them to join his fight. If you consider getting drunk, falling off his horse into a creek, causing pneumonia which killed him a few days later in a white man's hospital an honorable death, I believe you would be setting a pretty low bar for the early Apache.

As for gold, it's pretty well known that Cochise had a gold mine....which was worked by his son and other Apache.

My personal belief is that if Geronimo had knowledge of hidden gold or treasure he would have used it, along with anything else he considered of value, to bribe those who could be bribed. In those days.....they were legion. In his later years he made his money from the produce his wife and kids could grow on his farm, personal appearances and the bows and arrows he made for sale.

Much of this is based on personal opinion formed by casual research over the years. Much of the early history is conjecture, but logic dictates that it is likely accurate. I found few things in Apache history that were admirable, by modern standards, other than their ability to survive in a totally hostile environment and their devotion to their family.

Many people today want to lionize that history and find some greater meaning in the Apache "mystique". Perhaps they are right, and the old ways deserve veneration. I suppose you could say the same thing for Attila's hordes, or the Vikings of old. I prefer to look at history through modern-day eyes and understand their reasoning and what took place through the eyes of the "old ones".

I could, of course, be wrong.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

BudP link=
. Granted, these 'Savages' were not house-broken to white-man standards and certainly part of a long line of 'Conquerors' of the area. They were merely trying to hold what they had taken many generations before
.********************
HI does this include the states of Sonora & Chihuahua which never were any part of their territory.?
They sysematically killed all over those states. From the 1500's on to the late 1800's it was unsafe to venture into the Sierras of Mexico to look for the Lost Tayopa Mines among others. They are credited with killing countess hundred of Tayopa seekers. No ranch was safe from their depredations.

I t has been estimated that these states were set back 2 - 300 years in development solely because of them.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

It tickles me when I read or hear stories of the 'Red Man' who keeps quiet about riches of gold, silver and turquoise for spiritual reasons. Folks.....That was true five generations ago. At this date we have, long since, arrived at a state of greed that matches anyone. Do not believe that these stories of 'lost treasures' that 'Indians' hold sacrosanct are anything but crap. We love money as much as anyone!!!
****************

Agreed 100%
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

In case you wonder, My Dad was 1/4 Scott-3/4 Cherokee. My mother was full-blood Yaqui(cousin to the Dineh/Apache). I was raised in central/South AZ. I spent my youth in close proximity to full-blood 'Apache's' who remembered or were told by their parents of a better time. I look at myself, not as a half-breed but a hybrid. There is a difference.
****************
I spent almost 5 years living with the Yaqui in Sonora. They consider the Apache as sort of second cousins and of lesser fighting ability I have the bible in the Yaqui Language which they gave me for services rendered and friendship.

I know every square ft of the Bacatetes.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


A little FYI. At times when the full-blood 'injun' kids would be on my ass, my Mother would tell me a story. Dineh never beat their kids. Instead, when they were bad, they would be told that if they did not be good, the 'Yaqui would come in the night and take them'. I used that one more than once; seems the Yaqui were supposed to be a bit.....cannablistic. Don't know if thats true but it worked for me.
********************
Possibly, but since they had plenty of protein along the Yaqui river, they had no reason to indulge. I have never heard of it.

They used the term "YORI" - white man - as the bogey man.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I usually don't participate in ethnic garbage but I thought you might find a half-breed's take on Indian Treasure and whether you can depend on our not finding it, before you get there, interesting. Bud
*******************
I agree, I am an itty bit Mohican due to a loooong cooold winter. I went on many an expediton with Yaqui's looking for Treasurers & mines. However in most cases there wasn't enough data from the survivors of the last revolt in the 30's. There were still a few holdouts until the early 50's. They showed me 4 mines, but I cannot touch them for now.

Hey what about my grandkisddies?? Mohican, French, Irish, Scot, Wales, Spanish, Michoacan Indian and ?. sheehs .

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[BudP]

Geronimo means Jerome in Mexican. His name was Goyat'le. It means 'The Yawner' or He Who Yawns'. The man was nothing more than a holy-man until the Mexicans killed his family. Then he turned angry.

The facts of his so-called 'humiliation' are; it took five thousand soldiers of the greatest(?) army on earth, at the time, five years to bring in Geronimo and his 'hoard' of savages. There were less than fifty of the People, all told and half were women and children. AND this would have taken much longer if it were not for turncoats of the Nednhi, who hated Bedonkohe. Clan rivalry is what took him out, not the white man.

I'm kind of curious where this info about his lying and deceit to his people came from. Perhaps you have found one of his diaries or ledgers in the Library Of Congress, or maybe it is just horse manure written by decendants of his.......great captors.

And.....(I'm on a rant) The Spaniards found we could not be enslaved! The encroaching 'Powers That Be' of the U.S. Military found that we could not be turned into farmers! We did not learn to say 'Yassa Massa' so they either killed us with guns or smallpox blankets or put us in concentration camps(read reservations)!!!

But.....there is no one alive today who is old enough to have been the one that did it, so.....I married a red-headed German from Missouri and have lived happily ever-after. But, boy it rubs my fur the wrong way when I hear people talk like they are superior to someone who worked so hard to give his people a place to live free.....But that's just me.

Bud

EDIT; I just looked in my 'Red-Man' dictionary. The words 'immigration' and 'colonization' are interchangable. They mean 'You have something I want, You don't leave I'm going to kill you a little bit and take it...because you are a savage and I am not.'

 

[BudP]

Sorry Randy and All Others.

I guess some of us are still 'Crazed, Savage and Primal' when we or 'our own' are persistently prevailed against. Just ain't house-broke, I guess.

Bud

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi Bud, Peeps:

Geronimo was certainly no saint nor a genius, he was simply a product of his times. Neither side was known for being nice

The Apache raided down into Sonora and Chihuahua, neither of which were Apache territory, but of the Pimas and other Indian tribes, later the Spanish. The Apache had no moral reason for being there except to kill and steal, which he did with a vengeance. It has been estimated that the Apache raids and murdering set back Sonora and Chihuahua 2-300 years.

As for being a genius simply because the cavalry could not catch him, sheesh have you ever been in that country? I have spent months at a time exploring it with only my mule for company, Even today you can easily pass a week without seeing anyone. It is as lawless in many areas today as it was in his time. That country fits Cortez' explanation to the King by crumpling up a piece of parchment then throwing it upon the table saying "That is northen Mexico".

There is no comparison logistically or mobility in moving a small band on foot and a large military group, especially when using horses. At times I have traveled up and down, cross country all day long , and that night I could look back and see my campsite of last night only some 1000 meters away horizontally.

Go to my posts in Legends, Tayopa to start to see how some of that country looks like. today the Mining industry is opening much of it with access roads.

NO, the various Indian tribes did NOT live in harmony with nature nor each other, it was a case of pure survival, feast or famine. In times of famine you attacked your weaker neighbor for his food, women and children were fair game to augment your losses.

According to my Yaqui, Pima friends, and old military records, the Apache were not particularily good figters, they never fought a frontal fight as shown in the TV or movies, but always from ambush. He would fire a volley of arrows or bullets, if the victims were wounded or killed he would then come out in the open and have fun with the survivors for a few days drawing out their spiritual energy by torturing them to death. Personally I agree this is the only logical way to fight, but the torture is out, although it was almost universal among the Indians.

As for the Yaqui being cannibals, I have never heard of it from either records or legends.. they had plenty of protein available along the river, no need to.

Here is the Yaqui bible that I menitoned.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[BudP]

Good reply Jose,

Your objective Caucasian opinion and an English version of a Greek New Testament, translated into Yaqui by a Mexican.

I'm out of here. You are clearly just baiting now and I don't think I will bite. You have a good day.

Bud