🔎 UNIDENTIFIED Large antique ladle. Silver?

[Mr. Digger]

I've inherited a large quantity of sterling and coin silver pieces from my parents, and this large ladle is the only one with this marking on it. Does that say 800M? I know 800 means 80% silver, but there are no other identifying marks or silversmith hallmarks on it. Is this definitely silver? Best guess on age? Thanks for looking!

 

[pepperj]

800 also means continental silver

 

[Red-Coat]

Nice piece.

Yes, it's silver, but .600 fine. The 'M' is for 'Mil(lesime)' meaning 'a thousand', so it's 800 parts of silver per 1,000 parts total.

It's for sure from continental Europe and likely from Germany, prior to 1888.

 

[pepperj]

Nice piece.

Yes, it's silver, but .600 fine. The 'M' is for 'Mil(lesime)' meaning 'a thousand', so it's 800 parts of silver per 1,000 parts total.

It's for sure from continental Europe and likely from Germany, prior to 1888.

but .600 fine. so it's 800 parts of silver?

Not quite getting your explanation.

 

[Red-Coat]

but .600 fine. so it's 800 parts of silver?

Not quite getting your explanation.

Yes. 800/1,000 parts of silver and 200/1,000 parts of another metal (usually copper) ie 80% silver (=800 fine).

Silver content is usually expressed in parts per thousand, so 925 (Sterling) silver is 925/1,000 (92.5%) for example.

 

[pepperj]

Yes. 800/1,000 parts of silver and 200/1,000 parts of another metal (usually copper) ie 80% silver (=800 fine).

Silver content is usually expressed in parts per thousand, so 925 (Sterling) silver is 925/1,000 (92.5%) for example.

I understand that part-but not the .600 fine and you also stated .800 parts.

 

[Mr. Digger]

Thank you Red-Coat and pepperj. Into the "not plated" bin it goes!

 

[Bucket Lister]

I can't cite my source without breaking forum rules, but what I find is that it's likely German, 1884 or later--not earlier.

 

[Red-Coat]

I understand that part-but not the .600 fine and you also stated .800 parts.

sorry for the confusion. I was typing without my reading glasses and the '6' looked like an '8'

 

[Red-Coat]

I can't cite my source without breaking forum rules, but what I find is that it's likely German, 1884 or later--not earlier.

The German hallmarking system was unified in 1888, adopting the "Crescent and Crown" (Halbmond und Reichskrone) as the national mark for silver, which should appear alongside the fineness mark, or within a cartouche that contains both elements. That’s why I believe prior to 1888.

I believe some Belgian makers also used the ‘800M’ mark without any maker registration and no national mark from around 1869 in order to compete with imports from Germany.

I could be wrong about the dating (wouldn't be the first time 😊)

Could you kindly send me the link by PM? I’d like to see what was said.

 

[pepperj]

I can't cite my source without breaking forum rules, but what I find is that it's likely German, 1884 or later--not earlier.

If it's from a detecting forum then it would.
If it was from a silver or spoon forum I don't believe you'd be breaking any rules.

 

[Red-Coat]

I can't cite my source without breaking forum rules, but what I find is that it's likely German, 1884 or later--not earlier.

Thanks for the links you sent me. The second link gives nothing helpful about dating, .800 silver apart from saying: “Historically, it was commonplace in Germany…”

In the first link, someone says; “Whatever country, 800 means late 19th century. Millesimal fineness expressed in units of silver parts per 1,000 was not used before last decades of 19th century.”

With that I would agree. The earliest reference I can find for ‘800M’ marking is from c.1869 as I said above.

That link you provided relates to a discussion about a piece from Martin Mayer of Mainz, Germany, which has an ‘800’ mark (but not ‘800M’) in addition to Mayer’s own mark, but no national mark. Someone responded with an ID of: “Martin Mayer from Mainz, Germany. 1884 or later, not earlier.” It’s not clear if he bases that date on the ‘800’ mark, the Mayer mark, or a combination of the two. Another responder provides a link to another silver website which incorrectly says Mayer was founded in 1888 (in fact they were founded in 1838). As far as I know they never used an ‘800M’ mark:

My understanding of the chronology for silver marking in Germany is as follows:

- Prior to 1884, German silver usually had town mark symbols and the silver fineness was usually indicated in "Loth." Pure silver was 16 Loth and various standards were in use such as 12 loth (corresponding to .750 fine), 13 loth (corresponding to .812 fine), 14 loth (corresponding to .875 fine and 15 loth (corresponding to .937 fine.)

- I don’t think this was the only type of marking for German silver in the second half of the 1800s, and particularly not on items for export to other countries where Loth represented an unfamiliar standard (ie outside Germany/Austria).

- In 1884 a law was enacted in Germany, making .800 fine the minimum national standard for silver.

- In 1886 the use of individual city marks was abolished and replaced by the national mark of a "Crescent and Crown" (Halbmond und Reichskrone) for a unified hallmarking system.

- There was a transition period before the national mark became compulsory in 1888, accompanied by a millesimal fineness mark and a maker mark.

What we have here, is an ‘800’ mark with an ‘M’ but no national mark and no maker mark. I would still contest that it can’t be after 1888 and probably relates to the period immediately before that when Germany was flooding other countries with imports (notably Belgium) or possibly (but less likely) from a Belgian maker at the time they were fending off imports from Germany.

JMO