Latin Letters in a Cave

[FadelMS]

Hi everyone. Can anybody help me with these Latin letters? What do they mean? I found them in an old cave in Jordan. Thanks.

 

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[Blind.In.Texas]

Looks like a wierd version of Greek.

 

[starsplitter]

I sent a copy of this pic to a local college. They think it is Greek and gave me an ancient language prof's email. I'll follow up, but suggest that you might do the same where you are located. Usually, local college people are very helpful - inquiries like these give them something easy and entertaining to do.

 

[FadelMS]

I sent a copy of this pic to a local college. They think it is Greek and gave me an ancient language prof's email. I'll follow up, but suggest that you might do the same where you are located. Usually, local college people are very helpful - inquiries like these give them something easy and entertaining to do.

Thank you starsplitter: I would have done the same if colleges in my area were interested in ancient languages like Greek or Latin.
Thanks again.

 

[Goodyguy]

FadelMS,

This is what I use to identify ancient writing: http://www.ancientscripts.com/ws_atoz.html
*I sent them an e-mail for help on ID and translation.

Do you have a photo or tracing of the actual writing? Your example appears to be a photo of a hand written copy.

GG~

 

[starsplitter]

If I may ask, where are you? Jordan? Palestine?

 

[FadelMS]

If I may ask, where are you? Jordan? Palestine?

This script has been found in a cave in Jordan. Jordan and Palestine are neaghbors, separated by The River Jordan.
The region was invaded by Alexander The Great in 332 BC followed by the Romans who conquered the region in 63 BC.
I wonder whether this script is a mixture of Latin and Greek since it contains Latin letters like the "W" which is not one of the Greek alphabet. Any comments?

 

[starsplitter]

I will let you know what the professor says (I am assuming he will respond). I was wondering where YOU were located, as you mentioned Jordan. Visiting Palestine (Jerusalem, Bethleham, so on) and Petra are on my bucket list (things to do and see). Okay... I'll reply when he gets back to me.

 

[FadelMS]

I will let you know what the professor says (I am assuming he will respond). I was wondering where YOU were located, as you mentioned Jordan. Visiting Palestine (Jerusalem, Bethleham, so on) and Petra are on my bucket list (things to do and see). Okay... I'll reply when he gets back to me.

I live in Jordan and Petra is 120 KM away from where I live. If you haven't visited Petra before, I think you should this time. If you need any help, just ask.

 

[Blind.In.Texas]

According to Wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Latin_alphabet
"The Latin alphabet, also called the Roman alphabet, is the most widely used alphabetic writing system in the world today. It evolved from the western variety of the Greek alphabet called the Cumaean alphabet, which was borrowed and modified by the Etruscans who ruled early Rome, whose alphabet was then adapted and further modified by the ancient Romans to write the Latin language."

Reading the entire article can help date the characters. It seems that there are obsolete characters in that script. After you read the article you may get an idea of the date.

 

[Goodyguy]

This is the E-mail I sent...........

Hi I am trying to help a friend identify and translate this text found in a cave in Jordan.
(see attachment)
I could not find an exact example in your database, although Coptic came close. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Sincerely,
Buddy C.

This is the response I received............

Your guess seems to be on the right track. It definitely has elements of Greek script plus a few letters found only in Coptic. Jordan is certainly close enough to Egypt for Copts to easily migrate there in the past and leave inscriptions. There are some letters that I couldn't identify, but then again I'm not a specialist in Coptic script. There were bound to be different variety of scripts.

Larry

 

[Blind.In.Texas]

This is the E-mail I sent...........

Hi I am trying to help a friend identify and translate this text found in a cave in Jordan.
(see attachment)
I could not find an exact example in your database, although Coptic came close. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Sincerely,
Buddy C.

This is the response I received............

Your guess seems to be on the right track. It definitely has elements of Greek script plus a few letters found only in Coptic. Jordan is certainly close enough to Egypt for Copts to easily migrate there in the past and leave inscriptions. There are some letters that I couldn't identify, but then again I'm not a specialist in Coptic script. There were bound to be different variety of scripts.

Larry

That was very nice of you. Now if only we could get someone to transate it, then we will know for sure. It is peculiar.

 

[FadelMS]

This is the E-mail I sent...........

Hi I am trying to help a friend identify and translate this text found in a cave in Jordan.
(see attachment)
I could not find an exact example in your database, although Coptic came close. Any help or suggestions would be greatly appreciated.


Sincerely,
Buddy C.

This is the response I received............

Your guess seems to be on the right track. It definitely has elements of Greek script plus a few letters found only in Coptic. Jordan is certainly close enough to Egypt for Copts to easily migrate there in the past and leave inscriptions. There are some letters that I couldn't identify, but then again I'm not a specialist in Coptic script. There were bound to be different variety of scripts.

Larry

Thanks Buddy for your sincere effort.

 

[FadelMS]

This is a photo of the original script:

 

[starsplitter]

Fadel... here is the reply that I received:

This is very interesting. It is Greek, but there are some letter forms here that I don't recognize. (I'm not really an epigraphist; its quite likely that someone better at reading epigraphic texts would recognize them immediately.)


The first three letters are a mystery; some kind of prescript? Could that first letter be not a letter but a Christian cross?


The things that look like "H"'s with slanted cross bars seem to be nu's. That gives us several recognizable words. But there are several combinations of letters that are a complete mystery to me.


Another problem is that there are several letters that I would like to be lunate sigmas -- but there's clearly a non-lunate capital sigma in the 3rd line, which is troubling, since I would expect the scribe to be consistent. I would transcribe it as follows:

tΨΩ (?)
NΙΚΥ ΕΠΙ Τ-
ΩΝ ΥΔΑΤΩΝ
ΟΘΣ (?) ΤΗΣ ΔΟΣΗΣ
ΕΒΡΟΝΤΙΣΕ ΝΚΣΕ
ΕΠΙ ΥΔΑΤΩΝ
ΠΟΛΛΩΝ


Which gives us:


___


____ on the


waters


___ of the (some odd form of δόσις, "gift" here? Should be δοσέως in Attic Greek)


he thundered (?) ____ (Again, the form here should be εβροντησε, but this seems close enough)


on many waters.


(I've underlined letters that don't seem to me to make words, and left those passages blank in the translation).




All a bit mysterious, I'm afraid -- especially the clumps of letters that don't seem to make up words that I can recognize/ think of. Sorry not to be more help...

 

[FadelMS]

Thanks starsplitter: That helped a lot. Even though the translation is not complete but it gives an glimpse about the idea it talks about which is water and thunder. Some people thought that this script had to do with Alexander the Great and his treasure in the area. They think that Alexander had hidden his trophies in well protected caves. According to those people, these caves must have a script which warns those who would come close to the hidden treasure. Since the script does not contain any warning of death, this cave has nothing to do with Alkexander. According to those people, the warning must be in this form: "Those who are more Knowledgeable than us, can go ahead and take the treasure", which implies death to anyone who would tamper with such caves. They claim that those caves have seven barriers of death traps and nobody can solve these death traps unless he is more Knowledgeable than those who had designed the caves. These stories go around for ages but I think they are just fiction.
By the way, this script is accompanied by a sign similar to the one below: (Once I get a picture for it, I'll post it here)

 

[starsplitter]

Fadel... a couple of things come to mind:

a. The unintelligible (make no sense) portions or "letters" of the script may be a code of some sort - taken altogether, the script may be a set of directions or "map' (dating the script may help)
b. The sign you posted with the drill hole reminds me of a templar cross - whether or not templars (of other crusaders) got that far east, only you would know

Please keep me posted as this is intriguing, besides I may need a tour guide to Palestine someday

 

[FadelMS]

Fadel... a couple of things come to mind:

a. The unintelligible (make no sense) portions or "letters" of the script may be a code of some sort - taken altogether, the script may be a set of directions or "map' (dating the script may help)
b. The sign you posted with the drill hole reminds me of a templar cross - whether or not templars (of other crusaders) got that far east, only you would know

Please keep me posted as this is intriguing, besides I may need a tour guide to Palestine someday

You might be right, in fact a similar idea came to me when I saw the cross, but I was confused by the script which I thought it was some old form of Latin. Regarding templars, the cave lies 20 KM away from kerak castle which had been rebuilt by crusaders. I still think the script had been written by priests who came with the crusaders. Another explanation to the unintelligible portions of the script is that the native language of those priests wasn't Greek and making mistakes is understandable. After comparing the script with the Greek alphabet, I found out that the script contains modern form of letters, for example the third letter in the first line, the (Omega letter) is not ancient Greek.

By the way, I can help you in your tour in Jordan only since it is not easy for Jordanians to go to Palestine for reasons you know.

This is a photo of Kerak castle.

 

[starsplitter]

Fadel..

Intersting on the omega - how "modern" is it? Your idea on the local priest being ignorant of ancient Greek makes sense. It is more logical/probable than it being some sort of code. Still, I'd exhaust all possibilities.

Thanks and keep me posted. You and your family stay safe.

 

[FadelMS]

Fadel..

Intersting on the omega - how "modern" is it? Your idea on the local priest being --deleted-- of ancient Greek makes sense. It is more logical/probable than it being some sort of code. Still, I'd exhaust all possibilities.

Thanks and keep me posted. You and your family stay safe.

Thanks starsplitter,
It seems the ancient Greek included only the capital form for the Omega letter and the small letter might have been introduced later ( I coudn't find a date). That is why I think the script is not ancient since it has the small letter form for the Omega letter.
This site has some information on this topic: http://www.ancientscripts.com/greek.html

This is a snapshot from the same site which shows that the small letter for the Omega wasn't used in ancient Greek.