LDM why you cant get it !

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Here is a neet overlay of an 1800's Arizona map. I like the "placer diggins" by the Silver King alot. Also, there is a Sombrero Peak actually mentioned on this map (but not in area pictured). I wonder, 1800'S mentioning a Sombrero Peak seems the cartographers must have known of this years prior to the map and if so who the heck started that name.....could it be Mexicans??

Don,

Your map shows Mt McDowell as a flat table top. Very similar to the Spanish Sombrero. Ft Mc Dowell was established in 1865 I believe.

Is this "Tabletop" carried forward from another Map ?

 

[dpdkld]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Actually, the old map is overlayed on the google map for easier reference. The old map shows peaks and mountain ranges as flat top hills. The sombrero peak is also shown as a flattop peak, again just the way the mappers of the day did it. Sombrero isn't shown on this overlay map as I just wanted to include a historical map for everyone to see.

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Just a quick question here;

I noticed several mentions of the "worked sands" marked out on the satellite images. How do you know that it is worked sand, and not simply natural deposited sand? Thank you in advance.
Oroblanco

Thank You for this Question Roy,

Worked may be the wrong Word. Removed is more of what I can see.

Again, the American Southwest is the most Fragile land on the North American Continent. It takes hundreds of years to settle. These Arroyos are clearly Disturbed areas of Soil. Compare the close surrounding area, those areas that have not been disturbed. It should all match, with gentle flowing crevices leading into the Arroyos.

When I worked in open pit coal mining several years ago, as a front-end loader operator, I learned to read the face of the rock before me. I found impressions of huge plant life, like 15 ft dandylions. I found skeletal impressions of large animals. It took several years to develop this in-site and ability. There were operators who had worked in the coal for several years who never learned to read the rock, I was one of the first, it made the work more interesting. Mine was no toy loader, 475 Clark Michigan 177,000 pound machine, with a @ 12 yd bucket. You could slide a full size pickup into the bucket. Between 1800-2400 lbs @ yard of material. On a good day with damp top soil, and a good heap @ 13 1/2 yds or so, I could lift the rear wheels off the ground. Essentially, I could over load a tri-axle with one scoop.

The enclosed picture does not capture its size. The tires are @ 6 1/2 ft high, filled with calcium and water for stability. Sitting in the seat, your head is about 12-13 feet above the ground. I found this pic on line in the area 100 miles, for sale. It talks to me, really looks like my old machine back in 83. This kind of bucket is special.

One night I found a path of foot prints like deer, in a cut about 90 ft down from the top of a hill we were taking out. The prints were on a plate of slate about 2 feet above the coal seam. I jumped out to take a better look and maybe carry it to my truck, but you loose all reality of size, as this piece was bigger than the 4 x 8 bed of my truck.

So, do you stop what you're doing, and call the Smithsonian, or do you keep your job and keep working to feed your wife and new son ?

Eventually I had the same items at home the Smithsonian had in their museums, but a lot of us did who worked the coal.

Several strip mine workers have stones that look like prehistoric eggs, most about the size of a foot ball. I had a few.......Jack

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

American Southwest is the most Fragile land on the North American Continent. It takes hundreds of years to settle.

You're kidding, right?

If you walk out in the desert today - it will be different than yesterday. We have had a gold mine in the southwest for over 20 years - and I gotta tell you - every single year we have to "find" it. The washes change, the hills change, the dirts change - and they can change in front of you.

Coming from Pennsylvania coal country - the rock there is absolutely NOTHING like the environment in the southwest, and we learned that the
first year we went from Pa to the southwest.

Here, for your viewing pleasure, is an old Pennsylvania coal mine - as it is today.

Beth

 

[dpdkld]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

One thing in my short experience here is there are some mighty spiteful people ready to attack at any moment.... Hard nosed-sutckinthereway-you will bleed if you share your opinion...I just love it

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

American Southwest is the most Fragile land on the North American Continent. It takes hundreds of years to settle.

You're kidding, right?

If you walk out in the desert today - it will be different than yesterday. We have had a gold mine in the southwest for over 20 years - and I gotta tell you - every single year we have to "find" it. The washes change, the hills change, the dirts change - and they can change in front of you.

Coming from Pennsylvania coal country - the rock there is absolutely NOTHING like the environment in the southwest, and we learned that the
first year we went from Pa to the southwest.

Here, for your viewing pleasure, is an old Pennsylvania coal mine - as it is today.

Beth

Beth,

What part of my youth spent in the arroyo's & foothills of southern California, didn't you understand ?

What part of soil composition, also in earlier posts didn't you understand ? Around Red Mountain !

The area around Red Mountain has not changed for hundreds of years, other than natural disasters or man's influence !

Plant life in the desert southwest is indicative of the movement of soil. It has to have a foothold to survive and mature.

The more plants, the more settled. Take some of the Arizona avatars used around this Forum, that soil has not moved for a long time to mature in its own way.

I have seen documentaries that some of the oldest living things scrub (?) in the United States, are on high crests, and the plants are several thousands of years old. It would not supprise me if the plants/scrub around Red Mountain are hundreds of years old, living on that same spot.

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

dpdkid wrote

One thing in my short experience here is there are some mighty spiteful people ready to attack at any moment.... icon_scratch Hard nosed-sutckinthereway-you will bleed if you share your opinion...I just love it

Maybe it would help to re-read what she posted; there is no attack just a disagreement. Spiteful people, ready to attack at any moment? Wow. If you fellows have wondered why you are not getting as much "audience participation" in your threads here, THIS IS WHY. Should anyone disagree or question what is stated, it is perceived as some kind of personal insult or assault. It is not possible to have a discussion if anything that is not in agreement with or questions a theory is taken that way. Over-reacting to simple disagreements is not going to change any minds.

I will add this; if any of us were wanting to make 'attacks' on any other member here, it would not be so veiled as to require interpretation, it would be crystal clear and unmistakable. So far as I can tell, no one has yet merited that kind of response. In other words if you have to read things into a post, ie "between the lines" in order to see it as a "spiteful attack" then it probably wasn't an attack. Most everyone here is pretty direct and straightforward.

Good luck to you both, I hope you find the treasures that you seek. By all means please do continue.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

good morning: It was posted --> Hard nosed-sutckinthereway-you will bleed if you share your opinion...I just love it
**************

Somewhere I must have missed something, but this isn't supposed to be an Obama advisers session, i.e. a group of yessies, ?? It is a discussion group to see if what you have presented is correct, or even logical.

Just go look at the Tayopa sessions. I expected, asked for, and received many posts of questions and criticisms, a few down right nasty. But this is what I had actually asked for, and thanked them for their help.. If I couldn't answer simple questions, then I had to do my homework over again.

As it turned out they were of a tremendous help in finalizing the picture surrounding Tayopa. In fact, many gave me clinching data which I did not even suspect existed.

Sooo, if you can't, or won't, answer, or even consider simple questions, such as Beth posted, then you have a serious problem in your projected pattern of what, where, and when something happened in the past.

Let's not get personal here. Insead realize that it is just a form of sitting around the campfire BS'ng and drinking coffee.--->


Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

good morning : join me gang?

I am a bit on the fence on this, much depends upon the type of vegetation and the region. The Desert life is remarkably resilient, having developed this over time. The soil everywhere generally has untold numbers of plant seeds just waiting for the conditions to be correct to germinate and grow. These in turn are often scattered by the wind, water, and animal life. Many of the larger species, such as the Saguaro, Hecho, Pitaya, etc. do remain in one spot, and sometimes for centuries. Their seeds are scattered by animal life via the fruit.

In fact, it was a common practice to pass on the ownership between family generations of individual Mesquite, Pitaya, Hecho, and other larger desert plants that were utilized for food. Tribal wars were fought over this ownership, since life in those days was not as idyllic as our historians, authors, and movies love to potray it. It was basically a famine or feast life.

Now if you have ever seen a 7 -10 foot wall of water crashing down an arroyo, you realize that it can easily wipe out the former course of the arroyo and the existing plant life. But, while the arroyo changes will remain until the next flash flood, or heavy rain, the plant life will immediately start to germinate and grow, generally in time to flower and seed in turn before it grows too hot and dry.

Under these conditions yes, the lower areas can change radically in effectively a short time, but, on rocky areas such as high on a mt.,. it can be at a far slower rate.

Once, when looking for the La Tarasca, I found the portal of Las Pimas in an outcropping on the high side of an arroyo. A year or so later, I returned to take some photographs and couldn't find it in two days?? Yet, when I returned a third time, it was soo obvious ?? It was right where it was supposed to be.

What impresses me mostly, is the tremendous sizes of the erosion on the slopes, That had to come from somewhere, something must have had to change. The only question is the amt and rate..

sabe mis amigos, solomente Dios sabe.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Roy & Don Jose,

You are on the money here. In order to validate our own conclusions......to ourselves, it helps to open the top of your head and let others pour in their doubts, theories and ideas. That is often a messy process, but the results are often mind-blowing.

Take care,

Joe

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Thanks to all.

May I add, to the "desert" discussion, JackH, that, I (we, Roy and I), also lived in Southern California. I wasn't speaking from a position of only a
"visitor". We have also lived in the Arizona desert. (a point that most people who have been here awhile - know).

Beth

 

[ancientones]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

The Peralta Sketch map of the Sombrero Butte is the same mine that the Peralta Stone map leads to.
This picture, I call it El Corazon, was a central point to the mines in this area, including The Sombrero.
From this rock one can see the symbols used to mark the trails to the mines.
With a good HD monitor and knowing how/what to look for, you can pretty much locate most all of the
Spanish/Mexican mines in Az.
ancientones

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Hello Ancientones,

Great shot of your El Corazone, thanks for coming in with your Contribution. Would have been nice to have experienced that with you ! But some experiences are better when you turn around to remark to someone, to find you are the only one there !

Bye the way, does the Sun shine through those Peaks during the day ?

=============================================================================================

And I do Envy Every Single one of you, who has had tremendous experiences out in the Desert primarily our subject (in and around the Superstitions). Paid for by the Hardships through bodily damage, exhaustion, dangerous natural as well as roving natural elements. And there is the co$t factor of these experiences. Some have no doubt, changed their lives normal activities just to participate.

Don Jose, your knowledge of the way of Survival in the day is Priceless. (I was a Biology Major, General Biology. The Physical and Chemical Aspects. It was the most credits for Biology, where I attended after discharge). As well as yours Roy and Beth's experiences in the Wilderness, let alone the many who are reading who have had their own.


Quote:
Maybe it would help to re-read what she posted; there is no attack just a disagreement.

Reply:
Lets take a step back !

Quote:
You're kidding, right?

If you walk out in the desert today - it will be different than yesterday. We have had a gold mine in the southwest for over 20 years - and I gotta tell you - every single year we have to "find" it. The washes change, the hills change, the dirts change - and they can change in front of you.

Coming from Pennsylvania coal country - the rock there is absolutely NOTHING like the environment in the southwest, and we learned that the
first year we went from Pa to the southwest.

Here, for your viewing pleasure, is an old Pennsylvania coal mine - as it is today.

Reply:
I thought we were discussing this Thread, Red Mountain ! But we always get off track about Life's Experiences in the Wilderness. I am to Blame as well ! So, are you following My Lead, or am I following Your Lead ?, somewhere in or near the Superstitions vs Red Mountain ? Some want to express their hardships, not directly related to Red Mountain, and I want to share my experiences which gives some in site of where I am coming from and include that which has nothing to do with Red Mountain.

Quote:
Here, for your viewing pleasure, is an old Pennsylvania coal mine - as it is today.

Reply:
Beth, Roy I read this, and read this, and I keep coming back to: "You're kidding, right?" Followed by: Here, for your viewing pleasure, is an old Pennsylvania coal mine - as it is today. Preceded by: Maybe it would help to re-read what she posted; there is no attack just a disagreement !


As my friend Roy would say, "Please Proceede !"

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

OT Jack, so you are a biologist, does that include Herpetology.??

Don jose de La Mancha

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

OT Jack, so you are a biologist, does that include Herpetology.??

Don jose de La Mancha

Don Jose,

I would think anyone who has experienced the elements of the American Southwest including such as the areas of the Superstition's, as have been reflected on here, would be more of a Herpetologist, than I am a Biologist........Jack

 

[Old Dog]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Shameless tag

 

[ancientones]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

www.thesombreromine.com
Has anyone been in this part of the Sups?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Yes.


Beth

 

[Oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

<Quote from site "The Sombrero Mine">

If you would like to go see, from Tortilla Flat, hike to Peters Canyon up Tortilla Wash. Take Peters Canyon to the site, about 4 hours one way. This is a moderate to extreme hike, and take it easy jumping boulders or your knees will pay the price.

Besides this being a bit vague on details to locate the 'mine'; the route recommended is not the easiest way in to Peters canyon nor the safest. There is a waterfall and some very steep climbing, with no real trail by this route until you are practically at Tortilla ranch. Just a personal opinion but take Tortilla trail to that point then follow these directions for an easier and considerably safer hike. If you are hiking up Tortilla wash and get caught in a flash flood, you will become another subject of a difficult search and rescue operation. Anyone who thinks I am exaggerating this, ask Jim Hatt; he made several trips up and down Tortilla last year while looking for Jesse Capen.

Not to discourage anyone but that author (Bill Schmidt?) seems not to have actually entered the "Sombrero mine" himself, so it remains a question whether it is even a mine or just another old prospect hole. There are several in Peters canyon.

Good luck and good hunting, I hope you find the treasures that you seek.
Oroblanco

 

[ancientones]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Oroblanco
I am the author and will update the website with clearer directions. The picture on the webpage shows the Mule trail, not the hiking trail.
From Tortilla Flat, take the Tortilla trail into Tortilla Wash, up the wash to Peters Canyon. There are 'stacks' of 3 rocks that have been placed along the Washes(Totrtilla and Peters) that show the best way. As you start up Peters Canyon, on the Left a stack of rocks shows
the trail around the Large Boulders in Peters Canyon. The trail is against the rock wall on the left. Continue up to Peters Cave and the Falls. About 75 ft. before the Falls, there is a 10 ft. high ledge on the Right. A 2 ft. rock is leaning against this wall. By stepping on this
rock you can gain the lift needed to get on top of the ledge. The ledge passes to the Right of the Falls. About 100 yds. past the falls there is a 'Triangle' shaped boulder blocking the wash(see attached pic). At the spot of this picture there is a ledge on the Left, about 15 ft. at highest point, that gets you past this pool/rock. The rest of the way to the site has no obstacles, just boulders to jump across.
You do not need a rope and you can get by these with no help, although a partner makes is easier. It is a tuff hike, that is why I advised 'moderate to extreme'. Most washes in Az. are a risk during flash flood and I would hope those taking the hike are aware.
I approached Jim H. over a year ago with my 'evidence'. Unless I provided 40lbs. of Ore, he AND the SMHS are not interested. Per legal authority as well as the Forest Service, rockhounding, caches, or any other limited prospecting will not apply to removing Ore from a vein in a mine, even to 'prove' it is the LDM. Only others going to the site and making their own decisions will 'authenticate or disprove' what I claim. This is not a prospect, most all of the clues describing this mine(Indian, Mexican, LDM) are here, all visable and easy to recognize, in the locations described. I have many pictures of the clues and the site, but as Jim advised, these don't mean anything.
Because I would tell my story(go public) I decided to stay out of the mine. I have not advised what others in my group did or their pictures. I need some protection from others that may make the same claim.
If you have any interest in the Sombrero/LDM I strongly encourage you to make this trip.
ancientones