LDM why you cant get it !

[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Travis---

EE,

Which "two sets" of stories are you referring to?Thanks,
Travis

I was going from recollection, but I went to The Lost Dutchman Gold Mine site's map page, and here is what I was talking about. This will take more than one post.

First, here are some maps which show cactus markers, certain trees, corrals, and other landmarks which they appear to have in common. As a hunch, I group these together, because there is something about them that just doesn't seem right.

Maybe I'm imagining things, but here is what I have noticed---

The following three all mention the LDM specifically.








The following two are for Spanish mines. While they are not for the LDM specifically, they have interesting similarities. I'm wondering if there is some reason for this?






This group is notably different than another, larger, group which all have similarities, which I'll post.

Going through all these, and resizing the ones which most fit this point, takes a little time.

 

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[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Before I post the second group, here are two other maps, which are only to show that people have been all over the ground there.

To me, this says that they didn't have specific instructions to an exact location.

Or if they did, their instructions were simply wrong. After all, when you find something, do you still keep looking for it?







Working in the larger group may take awhile.


I should add that one of the reasons I noticed the apparently different groups, is that I was interested in all this LDM mystery, so I decided to play the odds. I was looking for corroborating evidence from different sources.

If, as CJ pointed out, all the different sources got their info from the same fiction, then this won't mean much of anything.

However, stories can be altered, but once a map is made public, it can't be changed without being noticed. So the origin of these maps is significant, not merely pertaining to whether whoever drew them, actually knew where the LDM was, but whether they were merely hoaxes to begin with, no matter how early they were published. After all, treasure maps are a dime a dozen.

But many of the maps also have stories to them, and those stories were told by someone, and sometimes those authors are known. So the integrity of some of the maps may be weighed with knowledge of the authors who published them.

That certain groups of maps are very similar, also says something, I think.

While other groups seem to indicate the same general areas, also sends a message of some kind.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Travis and EE,

I just went to my topo program and ran the line again.

Brown's Peak is where it starts and is farthest north. The other three peaks are just under 5,000' in total, to the southwest.

The line runs between Black Cross Butte and the west end of Coronado Mesa. It continues along the base of the east side of Malapais and goes, pretty much, through the center of today's Squaw Canyon. It continues through the northwest end of Bluff Springs Mt. before crossing the east side of Weaver's Needle.

I will try to post pictures of the map this evening.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

CJ---

That would be great.

Thanks for your help.

 

[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Before I post further maps for comparisons, I would like point out something very significant that I have noticed over the years, about verbal or written directions, and also about hand drawn maps.

I took a couple art classes in high school, which covered architectural and mechanical drawing. I liked it because it made sense to me, so I did pretty well at it. After that, whenever I gave verbal directions to someone about a location, I didn't realize it at the time, but I would form a visual image of the route in my mind, and include all the points necessary for them to get there. I just thought everyone did that.

But I have gotten some verbal directions that were so bad, that I got lost worse than I was when I asked for directions. And I always wondered why in the heck they had said what they did, because it turned out to not make any sense. So, the point being, I discovered that some people really, really, could not give directions at all. And many were somewhere in between that and being able to give good directions.

Later, I had a job where a small team of people would travel to different sites to do repair work there. Sometimes traveling several counties. We all had road maps, but there were always some places which were nearly impossible to find, for various reasons.

So, we got to drawing maps, to leave in the customer's file folder, to help each other get there as fast as possible. And I found the same thing applied to hand drawn maps, that did to verbal directions. Some people just can't draw a map worth a hoot! The idea for a hand drawn map is to indicate the best route, emphasize obvious landmarks, point out easily missed turns, and any other things, like precautions in certain areas, and so forth. These things enable a person to go directly to the location, quickly, easily, and safely; and be certain the whole time that they are going in the right direction.

With some of these Superstitions maps, it would appear the they weren't even intended for the reader to actually find the target location! But maybe it's just that "not everyone can draw a map!"

I noticed that, upon further inspection of these, that some of the maps tend to indicate the same place or at least the same close area. But it is indicated in very different ways. It seems that each person had a different idea of what was important, either scale distances, significant landmarks, insignificant landmarks, or representation of those landmarks.

So, it may be important, that maps which appear to be very different, yet really do indicate the same target or area, may truly be from different sources (corroborative). While those which are very similar, might just be reproductions from the same source, and could thereby all be wrong (or all close to right, too).

The fact that the same thing is represented very differently by someone, from his own viewpoint, at least shows that the person was there, and didn't just dream up the map. It doesn't, however, say that it's not a hoax.

This is just a heads-up on what I've been looking for, in weighing the validity of these maps, (when I have the time, anyway). And why I'm saying what I'm saying about the grouping and so forth.

 

[somehiker]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

With reference to a couple of the maps posted by EET,This is one mountaintop I hope to get a closer look at soon.

If nothing else,I would like to get some better shots of the arch itself.

Regards:SH.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Travis and EE,

Here are the pictures of the topo I promised:

As you can see, if the line is drawn from Brown's Peak and directly through the fourth peak down, it runs into Weaver's Needle......East side.

By moving the line to pass between the last two peaks, it comes very close to Superstition Peak.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Springfield]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

..... But I have gotten some verbal directions that were so bad, that I got lost worse than I was when I asked for directions. And I always wondered why in the heck they had said what they did, because it turned out to not make any sense. So, the point being, I discovered that some people really, really, could not give directions at all. And many were somewhere in between that and being able to give good directions ......

Having experienced trying to ferret the truth from an ardent protagonist with a great story to tell, I can assure you that the communication skills of both the teller and the listener are critical. A memory so clear to the teller is not so simple to relate accurately. Details are forgotten, descriptive words are not appropriate, important things are not emphasized. The listener may multiply the above error potentials in reverse from his perspective, doubling the chances for inaccuracies. And all this from the guy who was there telling the story for the first time. A seemingly bulletproof narrative in reality is full of holes - enough to spoil the pudding. Hypnosis can provide truly amazing results, but unfortunately you can't hypnotize Waltz. If you could, you might be surprised at the results. All the books on the shelf might end up in a yard sale.

 

[cactusjumper]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Unless I am way off here, Four Peaks can only be seen......maybe, as one peak from the southwest. That would be from, approx., Weaver's Needle to Superstition Peak. Even though I did look into it some time ago, it's not something that seemed like a legitimate clue to me. Something someone dreamed up.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Gentlemen, Ladies,

First of all, I want to thank those who have supported my Conclusions with references of others past who have thought the same.
I have not ignored your entries, but have the "Fever", not for self wealth, but to share my in-site. I have learned at this point in my life that being accused of being Analytical is a compliment. Sure, I am not correct in Most ? of my investigations, but I have been able to open some eyes in the past.

Somewhere in this photo I believe is your Valhalla. Center of photo is the funnel I have referred to.

On another thread the question if the LDM is being occasionally mined ? I have a few reasons to believe that.

The Pima-Maricopa have shut Red Mountain down. How many years ago was that ? I started this investigation 3 years ago this month, yet I was probably a year or so late to file a claim anywhere in Arizona that was available to do that.

My point is: Take a look at the fresh ATV tracks in this photo. These photos are usually no older that 1 year as they are done annually. You can see where it stops. The area is heavily worn, let alone the trail to this spot from Ft Mc Dowell Rd. Notice the proximity to the Funnel (just right of center) I refer to. Another curiosity, take the trail before you get this far, and follow it up to the other stop point. Why there ? is that not a dead end well up into that area on foot ?

From the Apache Junction Museum: I find that Treasure Map 17 keeps me coming back to it for this area. It is labeled "The Waltz Map". It may be but the writings are of the Peralta Era as you well know. Those of you who are familiar with this map notice a lot of activity with inscriptions near a deep cavity.

Another Map #5, I like the most, Peralta ? If I may take some liberties, as we all have on this subject, El Sombrero is Red Mountain. Caverna Con Casa is buried under the cut out below the rock face I have previously referred to. Escarbadia has come down. I had mistakenly referred to it a El Sombrero. I shelved this Subject a few years ago, and used this term loosely. S. Cima one of the outcroppings in the area of concern. Bottom of drawing is the Salt. The Heart still escapes me, but was maybe 70 ft high, only exposed from the sun as the result of a shadow, somewhere above or left and above Caverna Con Casa.

I must say this: Most of these conclusions are not my own, but from sources that have lead me here. I have taken their info and readdressed it......J

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Treasure Map # 17

I find that Treasure Map 17 keeps me coming back to it for this area. It is labeled "The Waltz Map". It may be but the writings are of the Peralta Era as you well know. Those of you who are familiar with this map notice a lot of activity with inscriptions near a deep cavity.

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Treasure Map # 5

Another Map #5, I like the most, Peralta ? If I may take some liberties, as we all have on this subject, El Sombrero is Red Mountain. Caverna Con Casa is buried under the cut out below the rock face I have previously referred to. Es Carbadia has partially come down. I had mistakenly referred to it a El Sombrero. I shelved this Subject a few years ago, and used this term loosely in the previous post. S. Cima one of the outcroppings in the area of concern. Bottom of drawing is the Salt. The Heart still escapes me, but was maybe 70-100 ft high, only exposed from the sun as the result of a shadow, somewhere above or left and above Caverna Con Casa.



due to a computer down load issue, the bottom of this illustration is not opening up. No matter.........J

 

[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

...I can assure you that the communication skills of both the teller and the listener are critical.

8) When I relate my own experiences, I have a tendency to leave the listener's skills out of it. Great point!



Upon looking over all the maps in the link again, I was soon overwhelmed with all the possible ways to present what I was saying. But I've finally got it in mind how to say it. I think I should just relate to the maps by number, to keep from filling up so much of the page.

There are the same maps, in the same order, also at The Apache Junction Public Library Website's Map Page.

I think I will just put up a couple that show my main points.

I did some sorting and categorizing, now I need to choose the most relevant, and re-size them, and so forth. And I have a couple chores to take care of today.

But, Travis, I will answer your question with that.

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Map # 17

could the end of the ATV trail on the high side, be where arrows are pointing into the big cut into the east face.......J

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

A Curiosity in the Information provided here within the photos (satellite), ATV tracks and East Face of Red Mountain and the arrows pointing inward and right, Map # 17. Although their may be some Liberties taken here, we must understand there were no aircraft during the Peralta, Gonzales or Waltz time line.

Map # 17: near the bottom (circle w/3 rabbit ears) the 'Funnel' & 3 shafts? Legend has it that Peralta came back a few times to the same Mine, the Last Mine. With as many as 400 in his Legion, did not the Legend describe more than one shaft in the same mine entrance.

On a personal note: I believe General Peralta had the 400 sweeping thru the Superstitions and would account for his Spanish Trail thru. Based on the Legend, Peralta was on a mission from the King of Spain. Not so much finding the Oro, but how efficiently and collectively he could accomplish those Missions. The most effective mine would be the one we all refer to as The Lost Duchman based on the grade & ease of mining it. I also believe Peralta covered over and left behind the less producing mines (within the Superstitions) to concentrate on the most Productive. With the Mine (LDM) Peralta did not need the Legion of 400 as too many would get in the way of productivity for Red Mountain. And this analogy may be why they were overwhelmed on the last Expedition when each time coming back with a smaller more efficient Unit. Unfortunately General Peralta wasn't prepared for the Great Yavapai Nation of Tribes descending upon them based on the Legend.

[Yavapai are an indigenous people in Arizona. Historically, the Yavapai were divided into four geographical bands that considered themselves separate peoples: the Tolkapaya, or Western Yavapai, the Yavapé, or Northwestern Yavapai, the Kwevkapaya, or Southeastern Yavapai, and Wipukpa, or Northeastern Yavapai - Verde Valley Yavapai. Another Yavapai band was the Matakwadapaya. This group is believed to have mixed with the Mohave and Quechan and no longer exists, but several Mohave and Quechan families trace their family history to Yavapai roots.]


The 'Legend', if I remember correctly: Waltz described walking thru a narrow passage wide enough for a "Pack Animal" (my words ?), and descending on down by foot. I see no area near (where I refer to) the Funnel area where this fits with the Pack Animal. But there seems to be a passage thru the East Face above where the high ATV was parked corresponding with the arrows of Map #17. It is a stretch, but what if "Waltz was describing (2) two areas within Red Mountain. 1) Funnel, 2) Narrow Passage with a Pack Animal ? The ATV tracks are only interested in (2) two Distinct areas on the East side of Red Mountain. The lower ATV track avoids going any further but stops short of the Funnel. Why ? The upper ATV track seems self explained.......J

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

(1) Map # 59:

: 3 RED HILLS
: DEEP CLIFFS (Caverna Con Casa)
: KIDNEY SHAPED X PIT (FUNNEL)


(2) view of: 4 Peaks looking W SW to Red Mountain

(3) view of: RED MOUNTAIN (3 RED HILLS)

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

What you really need, is some real "boots on the ground" time. (and permission has been granted by the reservation from time to time).

B

 

[EE THr]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

Travis---

If you ever need to know how long it takes for a person's eyes to un-cross after studying hand drawn maps for a couple hours at at time, just ask me. I now have solid data on that. Jeeez, I need to take a walk!

Any way, I had an idea which quadrant of the Supers, that most of the maps which made any sense at all, were indicating. And that was the Northeast area. But today I started noticing that some of the maps which didn't seem to really show much, and even some which didn't seem to make any sense, or agree in any way with any other maps; started to make sense! Or maybe I just need some sleep.

It goes like this. Some of the maps that just don't look like much, are, within the boundaries of logic, actually showing the same thing as several of the others which appear to be more specific in their depictions. The key point is, how many ways do different people have of showing the same geologic formations? I'm now thinking it's a whole lot of different ways!

For one thing, there seems to be more people with spatial representation difficulties than I thought. I don't know if it qualifies as full blown dyslexia, but many people do tend to put an object in a drawing on the wrong side of another object. I think it has to do with the left-right confusion of, "is it on your left or my left?" kind of thing. When a person draws something from a different viewing angle, people tend to get mixed up in transposing left for right, when necessary. I've seen people do that, and not even notice that they reversed them in the drawing.

So now, I'm trying to sort out the ones that are the same, then the similars, then the "probably means the same" ones. While trying not to just imagine things just to prove a particular point.

Of course, the whole map thing falls under the category of "legends." So any conclusions would merely be "a coincidence of legends." Which doesn't necessarily mean much.

But if all the maps came from the same original source, like lots of the Waltz stories may have, then why would they have such dissimilar ways of depicting the same information? Although some of them are very similar, too.

Travis---

What is your theory about what kind of "miner" would look there?

EE,

Which "two sets" of stories are you referring to?

The "two sets" of stories and maps, are first the ones that talk about marks and stones on cacti, and so-many paces in one direction, then so-many in another, and corrals, and stuff like that. These tend to indicate a spot in the area of Weaver's Needle. Lots of people have searched there, even some big names.

The second set of stories and maps don't mention any of that stuff, but involve the Four Peaks, seeing a tall needle in a southerly direction from the Peaks, the pit and tunnel with the cave house/church across the creekbed, the setting sun shining into the pit, and stuff like that. These all indicate the Northeast quadrant of the Supers.

One clue that always interested me was - Waltz sitting on a rock in Tortilla Creak when he confronted the dude trying to follow him...

And that would be in the Northeast quadrant....




So, what is your theory about what kind of "miner" would look there?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

"Deep Cliffs" (caverna con casa)?

That's not the translation there - depending on who is doing the translating (Spain spanish or Mexican spanish) you are talking "cave with house"
or "house cave"

I just don't see ATV trails on your map (google).

One thing I have found with Google maps, is that they are mis-read on a regular basis. Unless you have been there, you cannot always tell a trail from a wash, or a rock from a know article (like the wagon).

If you look at the case of the 3 Utah missing men (the ones that have been found), you will know that they had several google maps, and they mistook a
creekbed for a trail. And, what it looks like when that google photo was taken and what it looks like today is probably very different, not to mention that the desert changes its looks on a regular basis. One rain can change the look of it.

If you call the reservation, you will find that they have "tours" that you can take up to and around Red Mountain. If you were to take this little
"tour", some of your topography questions might well be answered.

If you look at the government reports of that area, you will see that there was some mining here and there in that area, but, since the casinos opened, it has changed mostly to service jobs, with mining only about .03% of income. So, it is possible there are some trails to a mine or two, but, just my opinion, if they thought they had the LDM, they'd make it into an income-producing tourist destination, and selling "sample" nuggets.

B

 

[JackH]

Re: LDM why you can't get it !

EE THr......

Although I am new to TH, I am not new to this kind discussion/format.

What is confusing as hell is, are you addressing this to me (JackH), because I have not seen Travis in here for a while. And I don't have any reason to throw a switch or know how to cancel him out of what I can read in this thread. That being said, I will give an answer to this question for Travis---

What kind of miner would look there?

1) Peralta? left a good trail which started at the gateway near Apache Junction and moved thru leaving a trail behind him. Probably a wide trail, with a Legion of 400.
2) Peralta Stones for what I can see, indicate that, or someone before him. Why would Peralta head out of Mexico into Arizona specifically, unless he had fore knowledge.
3) Waltz Map #17 is one out of many. And the symbols match the carvings left by Peralta ? I don't really buy any map drawn by Waltz after Red Mountain, as this is too easy to find, unless it was to steer people away. On that thought, maybe he could help them find another mine to uncover left by Peralta ? and then everyone would be off his back. After all, Waltz had the Mother Lode. I think Peralta's mission ended at Red Mountain, not by his choice. So follow Peralta's trail north thru the Superstitions.

Treasure Map: something on paper leading to the ultimate goal. I now live in Pennsylvania, I could start a treasure map from my back door leading to anywhere and that would be a treasure map because I said so. NOT. A Treasure Map is one that you hold while standing on top of the treasure. Map in one hand, treasure in the other. Anything else is just a map.

Waltz at Tortilla Creek confronting the dude following him:

I believe every time someone saw Waltz cross the Salt coming south, he already had what he wanted, just enough. Going north they thought he was headed to Ft Mc Dowell and stopped there to make it credible. Waltz confronted the dude because Waltz was confident, had what he wanted but not someone on his back while he was carrying. Empty, I don't think he cared much laughing all the way . What a better place than the Superstition's to lead people away from your Secret. Waltz had people following him all the time, on that particular time frame Jacob had other things to do and did not want to walk deep into the Superstition's. (Time frame: in those days nothing was done by the hour, unless you lived in town.)

I do believe the Dutchman had a hobby once he had found the mine (s) at Red Mountain. Following the Peralta trail in reverse. As I had mentioned before, Peralta was on a mission, Gold was an assignment, not personal wealth. I feel JW was looking for other mines that were covered up as well for future use by Peralta........Jack