Manual ( no engine) Sluice

[Tom Emery]

I plan to prospect in California. I can't figure out if it is legal to place a sluice in a stream and use the natural flow of the water to rinse the dirt.
Also, can you use a hand operated "dredge". I am talking about the plastic tube with a plunger that socks up material when you pull out the handle.
Everything I have read so far doesn't mention non mechanized prospecting.
Thanks

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I plan to prospect in California. I can't figure out if it is legal to place a sluice in a stream and use the natural flow of the water to rinse the dirt.
.....
Everything I have read so far doesn't mention non mechanized prospecting.

Tom, this has me a bit confused. You're asking if something is "legal" to do. And you follow it up with an acknowledgement that you have studied all the laws/rules, and don't find anything that mentions it.

So I don't understand : If the rules/laws are "silent on the subject" (ie.: Not forbidden), then it seems to me that ... presto : Not disallowed. Right ?

Are you expecting to find an express allowance for this ? Eg.: a law or rule that says: "Yes you can sluice a stream with the natural flow ...." ?

On the contrary, you don't need express allowances to do something that's not disallowed or forbidden. In the same way that if you approach an intersection in your car, do you need an express allowance that "Right turns are allowed here" ? No. On the contrary : If you saw no sign that forbade right turns, then : You assume you can make a right turn. In the same way, our hobby does not need express allowances.

If there is nothing that forbids your intentions, the presto, it's not forbidden. Do not think you need to find a law that ALLOWS something (express allowances). Any more so than you'd expect to find a law that says : "Frisbee flying allowed here" etc....

 

[Tom Emery]

Tom, this has me a bit confused. You're asking if something is "legal" to do. And you follow it up with an acknowledgement that you have studied all the laws/rules, and don't find anything that mentions it.

So I don't understand : If the rules/laws are "silent on the subject" (ie.: Not forbidden), then it seems to me that ... presto : Not disallowed. Right ?

Are you expecting to find an express allowance for this ? Eg.: a law or rule that says: "Yes you can sluice a stream with the natural flow ...." ?

On the contrary, you don't need express allowances to do something that's not disallowed or forbidden. In the same way that if you approach an intersection in your car, do you need an express allowance that "Right turns are allowed here" ? No. On the contrary : If you saw no sign that forbade right turns, then : You assume you can make a right turn. In the same way, our hobby does not need express allowances.

If there is nothing that forbids your intentions, the presto, it's not forbidden. Do not think you need to find a law that ALLOWS something (express allowances). Any more so than you'd expect to find a law that says : "Frisbee flying allowed here" etc....

Hello Tom,
I haven't actually looked up the laws pertaining to sluicing. It's just any time anything is mentioned about the legality of prospecting streams/ rivers in California, the only mention of doing it is with a pan. It expressly forbids mechanized dredging/hibanking and as far as I can tell makes no mention of "natural sluicing". I was asking if anyone has any specifics regarding "natural" sluicing. I don't want to spend money on a piece of equipment that I won't be able to use in California.
I figure if you have been doing it for a while, you would know if there is going to be a problem. Living in California with all its do's and don'ts is confusing.
I don't want to run into an overzealous lawman who decides to confiscate my gear and hands me a summons just because his interpretation of a vague law is not the same as my interpretation.
If you have any useful information about whether it is okay to use a sluice powered only by the natural flow of a stream, I sure would appreciate it.
I guess I should just ask the question:
Have you ever had problems with law enforcement while using a sluice in a stream or river in the state of California?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Hello Tom,

Hmmm, on the one hand you say : " ...I haven't actually looked up the laws pertaining to sluicing...."

But on the other hand you say: ".... any time anything is mentioned about the legality of prospecting streams/ rivers in California, the only mention of doing it is with a pan. It expressly forbids mechanized dredging/hibanking and as far as I can tell makes no mention of "natural sluicing".

So do you see how the 2nd statement appears that you HAVE IN FACT looked into the laws. Lest how else would you have been appraised of those other things you "can't do" ?

You say : "...I don't want to run into an overzealous lawman who decides to confiscate my gear and hands me a summons just because his interpretation of a vague law is not the same as my interpretation...."

Couple of observations on that : If there had ever been a case of anyone "getting their gear confiscated " for this type sluicing, then YOU CAN BET that there would be links passed around about it. So have you key-word searched it ? I'll bet you dollars to donuts that you are not going to find any such incident. And that no one can ever recall such a thing. You are even saying that it's a "vague law" and "up to interpretion". As if to acknowledge that there is NOT any "black and white disallowance". So where does this fear of confiscations arise ?

Whenever this fear of "confiscations" (and jail, and tickets, etc...) arises in the discussion of someone asking about innocuous benign md'ing locations and types, I always ask them if they have ANY examples of jail, confiscations, etc... And all you ever hear is the sound of crickets. And if they CAN cite any example of confiscations etc..., it will always be for someone night-sneaking obvious historic sensitive monuments. Or someone who is being obnoxious and can't take a warning. Or someone doing a site that, with an ounce of common sense, could have easily found an explicit law to the effect (which you're saying is not the case here).

So why do we keep fearing "confiscations" so much ? Easy: It's the psychology of shark attacks: No matter how rare, no matter how many thousands of people swim every day without incident, yet if a SINGLE attack occurs somewhere in the world, guess what will appear on the next day's headlines ? And then guess what everyone will fear the next time they go swimming ? So too is it with md'ing.

Thus people tend to want express allowances. Ie.: a "yes you can" is much more smoothing and comforting, eh ? So they go asking forest service people "Can I?" type questions (as if they're asking permissions, and as if our hobby were somehow harmful or evil that it needed sanctions and approvals). And thus, presto: Another law or rule safe-answer is born to "address the pressing issue". And we end up being our own worst-enemies

So again I say : If there is no law or rule that says you can't, then presto, it's not forbidden or disallowed.

 

[Tom Emery]

Hmmm, on the one hand you say : " ...I haven't actually looked up the laws pertaining to sluicing...."

But on the other hand you say: ".... any time anything is mentioned about the legality of prospecting streams/ rivers in California, the only mention of doing it is with a pan. It expressly forbids mechanized dredging/hibanking and as far as I can tell makes no mention of "natural sluicing".

So do you see how the 2nd statement appears that you HAVE IN FACT looked into the laws. Lest how else would you have been appraised of those other things you "can't do" ?

You say : "...I don't want to run into an overzealous lawman who decides to confiscate my gear and hands me a summons just because his interpretation of a vague law is not the same as my interpretation...."

Couple of observations on that : If there had ever been a case of anyone "getting their gear confiscated " for this type sluicing, then YOU CAN BET that there would be links passed around about it. So have you key-word searched it ? I'll bet you dollars to donuts that you are not going to find any such incident. And that no one can ever recall such a thing. You are even saying that it's a "vague law" and "up to interpretion". As if to acknowledge that there is NOT any "black and white disallowance". So where does this fear of confiscations arise ?

Whenever this fear of "confiscations" (and jail, and tickets, etc...) arises in the discussion of someone asking about innocuous benign md'ing locations and types, I always ask them if they have ANY examples of jail, confiscations, etc... And all you ever hear is the sound of crickets. And if they CAN cite any example of confiscations etc..., it will always be for someone night-sneaking obvious historic sensitive monuments. Or someone who is being obnoxious and can't take a warning. Or someone doing a site that, with an ounce of common sense, could have easily found an explicit law to the effect (which you're saying is not the case here).

So why do we keep fearing "confiscations" so much ? Easy: It's the psychology of shark attacks: No matter how rare, no matter how many thousands of people swim every day without incident, yet if a SINGLE attack occurs somewhere in the world, guess what will appear on the next day's headlines ? And then guess what everyone will fear the next time they go swimming ? So too is it with md'ing.

Thus people tend to want express allowances. Ie.: a "yes you can" is much more smoothing and comforting, eh ? So they go asking forest service people "Can I?" type questions (as if they're asking permissions, and as if our hobby were somehow harmful or evil that it needed sanctions and approvals). And thus, presto: Another law or rule safe-answer is born to "address the pressing issue". And we end up being our own worst-enemies

So again I say : If there is no law or rule that says you can't, then presto, it's not forbidden or disallowed.

I have been living in California for forty years. I have some real funny stories about the laws, rules, regs, taxes, fees, assessments, codes, restrictions, prohibitions, fines, jail terms, confiscation, probations and the absolutely hilarious 48 hour arrest with no charges. Ever hear of "ignorance of the law is no excuse"? Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. See what living here does to you?
Let me repeat my paraphrased question:
Has anyone had any trouble from the "authorities " for running a sluice powered solely by non mechanized (the flow of the stream) means?

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I have been living in California for forty years.

You say : " .... I have been living in California for forty years. I have some real funny stories about the laws, rules, regs, taxes, fees, assessments, codes, restrictions, prohibitions, fines, jail terms, confiscation, probations and the absolutely hilarious 48 hour arrest with no charges...."

I do not deny that there are "hilarious" events. Eg.: Persons roughed up for things that "fell into a grey area of law" (ie.: up for whimsical interpretation). Ok ? So we agree on this, right ?

But at what point do we take flukes like this , and think this means we should cower all the time ? At what point can we leave our front door in the morning ? (might get hit by a truck). I mean, at what point do we not let the flukes of life worry us silly, waiting for express "yes you can" edicts ?

You say : "....Ever hear of "ignorance of the law is no excuse"? Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...."

Sure. No one here is advocating not looking it up. And sure, if something said "no", then by all means: Don't do it. But it appeared you'd looked it up . And found it to be silent on the subject . And all I'm saying is that "silent on the subject" would mean : Not disallowed.

And if you ask me, in this wonderful digital day & age we live in : If you find nothing that says you can't , and "zero examples" of any confiscations or summons: Then ... Why isn't that satisfactory due diligence ? What could be more law-abiding than that ? It seems to me that you're looking for express allowances. As if, you have to find something written that says you can. Lest otherwise you assume you can't.

 

[Tom Emery]

You say : " .... I have been living in California for forty years. I have some real funny stories about the laws, rules, regs, taxes, fees, assessments, codes, restrictions, prohibitions, fines, jail terms, confiscation, probations and the absolutely hilarious 48 hour arrest with no charges...."

I do not deny that there are "hilarious" events. Eg.: Persons roughed up for things that "fell into a grey area of law" (ie.: up for whimsical interpretation). Ok ? So we agree on this, right ?

But at what point do we take flukes like this , and think this means we should cower all the time ? At what point can we leave our front door in the morning ? (might get hit by a truck). I mean, at what point do we not let the flukes of life worry us silly, waiting for express "yes you can" edicts ?

You say : "....Ever hear of "ignorance of the law is no excuse"? Just because I can't find it doesn't mean it doesn't exist...."

Sure. No one here is advocating not looking it up. And sure, if something said "no", then by all means: Don't do it. But it appeared you'd looked it up . And found it to be silent on the subject . And all I'm saying is that "silent on the subject" would mean : Not disallowed.

And if you ask me, in this wonderful digital day & age we live in : If you find nothing that says you can't , and "zero examples" of any confiscations or summons: Then ... Why isn't that satisfactory due diligence ? What could be more law-abiding than that ? It seems to me that you're looking for express allowances. As if, you have to find something written that says you can. Lest otherwise you assume you can't.

I bought a 45 foot Kelly Peterson center cockpit diesel auxiliary cutter for $7500.00 a few years back. Spent 2 years rebuilding it. Spent the next 6 years cruising the planet. I didnt seek permission from anybody. Funny thing though; when I launched the boat in Mission Bay (Driscoll Boat Yard) and motored it down to my slip in San Diego Bay (Marina Cortez)I was met by 3 different agencies(Coast Gaurd, San Diego Harbor Police and Customs Enforcement). They spent 3 hours trying to find something to arrest me for. I never left the country and I had Customs doing their best to find something I might have smuggled into the country, Coast Gaurd counting the number of life jackets and Harbor Police praying for a roach.
I guess you can extrapolate all night on what you can do or think you can do. I have lived in this Police? State long enough to know Bizarroland when I see it. So I'll keep asking the questions which will keep you asking why am I asking the questions.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

. So I'll keep asking the questions which will keep you asking why am I asking the questions.

Tom : I totally understand why people look for "express yes's". Ie.: They assume they maybe CAN'T do something, until given a princely blessing to the contrary. That way, if anyone gripes, you can merely "whip out your permission" . Right ? And the nosy-parker will then slink away. Embarassed for ever having questioned you. Right ? Hence what's not to love about express "yes's" ? And thus "silent on the subject" is to be shunned. Right ?

I totally get this mindset.

And maybe this doesn't apply to the prospecting end of our hobby (your specific niche nuance here). But I can tell you for a fact, that when it comes to normal md'ing, persons have had your same sentiments. For all the same reasons you list. So they are not content when they can't find a "no md'ing" rule, in a city or county's park's codes. That's not good enough. So they go knocking on doors, sending emails, and making phone calls. Looking for express "yes" (what's not to love, eh ? Can't be too safe, eh ?)

And then guess what happens ? They bump into the "no one cared UNTIL you asked" psychology Because, the mere fact that someone thinks they need to ask, implies that something is wrong with your activity (lest why else would you be asking ?). Thus merely dictating/steering someone's "safe" answer. And trust me : They can say "no " EVEN ON ANCILLARY GROUNDS ! (Eg.: alter & deface, harvest/remove, etc....) And these "no's " have come from areas where, quite frankly, no one ever had a problem before. See how that works ?

I'm not as familiar with sluicing/prospecting. But it would seem to me that, like md'ing, laws & rules are "no secret". And in this digital day & age that we're in, this should be available info. And if it *were* totally "silent on the subject", then : So be it.

 

[Tom Emery]

Tom : I totally understand why people look for "express yes's". Ie.: They assume they maybe CAN'T do something, until given a princely blessing to the contrary. That way, if anyone gripes, you can merely "whip out your permission" . Right ? And the nosy-parker will then slink away. Embarassed for ever having questioned you. Right ? Hence what's not to love about express "yes's" ? And thus "silent on the subject" is to be shunned. Right ?

I totally get this mindset.

And maybe this doesn't apply to the prospecting end of our hobby (your specific niche nuance here). But I can tell you for a fact, that when it comes to normal md'ing, persons have had your same sentiments. For all the same reasons you list. So they are not content when they can't find a "no md'ing" rule, in a city or county's park's codes. That's not good enough. So they go knocking on doors, sending emails, and making phone calls. Looking for express "yes" (what's not to love, eh ? Can't be too safe, eh ?)

And then guess what happens ? They bump into the "no one cared UNTIL you asked" psychology Because, the mere fact that someone thinks they need to ask, implies that something is wrong with your activity (lest why else would you be asking ?). Thus merely dictating/steering someone's "safe" answer. And trust me : They can say "no " EVEN ON ANCILLARY GROUNDS ! (Eg.: alter & deface, harvest/remove, etc....) And these "no's " have come from areas where, quite frankly, no one ever had a problem before. See how that works ?

I'm not as familiar with sluicing/prospecting. But it would seem to me that, like md'ing, laws & rules are "no secret". And in this digital day & age that we're in, this should be available info. And if it *were* totally "silent on the subject", then : So be it.

I'm asking the question here so I don't have to ask it "there". So far so good. I'm pretty sure that by the time I actually set the thing up 6 months from now I won't have any ambiguity about it.
. I haven't had such a Socratic exchange in quite some time.
I've mellowed with the years. In my younger incarnates I would never have asked the question. I would just do it. It has suited me well. I've done more living then any five people. My cousin keeps telling me to write a book. Maybe later. Too much to do.
Thanks for your insights. I'm in Escondido. If you ever get the opportunity to visit, drop me a line. There is usually a cold one or six in the refer.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

I'm in Escondido. If you ever get the opportunity to visit, drop me a line. There is usually a cold one or six in the refer.

Ok. And then we can continue the conversation on the definition of "ambiguity", and if md'rs have responsibility to get it "unambiguous", haha

Escondido, eh ? I've pulled reales and gold coins within 15 to 30 miles of you

 

[Tom Emery]

Ok. And then we can continue the conversation on the definition of "ambiguity", and if md'rs have responsibility to get it "unambiguous", haha

Escondido, eh ? I've pulled reales and gold coins within 15 to 30 miles of you

Where are you? It may take a while to learn this "hobby", but when I do, I want to prospect with you. I'm guaranteed a lively conversation...
Or just send me the GPS coordinates to the location of that Gold coin. Ha ha