✅ SOLVED Military buttons id and age?

[rayrayvegas]

I know sorry here we go again : / but as I was going thru my button cans I saw these, I dug these up12 or more years ago in Pioche Nv. Any help again please! I feel like I owe you all a steak dinner. : )

 

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[duggap]

I feel sure the navy button is a modern fashion button. They usually have the iron back that doesn't survive. The other is fairly modern from the back shank, or lack thereof. I don't recognize the face but feel it may be fashion also.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Duggap is correct on both counts... 20th-Century civilian-clothing "Fashion" imitations of actual US Military buttons. Note the "self-shank" back.

 

[rayrayvegas]

As always thanks for the knowledge and background. When you say modern, what year are you thinking?

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

As always thanks for the knowledge and background. When you say modern, what year are you thinking?

CBG would be better to answer your question but I will try.

The eagle is a fashion button as stated. Waterbury has this design listed under fashion. 25276 - Waterbury Button





This type self shank was patented in the 1920s approximately but it could be newer.




The second eagle is US Navy and was used during the Civil War. But the cheap thin rusted steel back would make it a more modern non military issue replacement. Again from the early 1900s.

The only steel back US Navy that I know of, and its a long shot, would be the CW tin back kepi cap button. You need to measure it. Its discussed here but unfortunately many of my pics were accidentally deleted. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/285285-verify-kepi-button.html

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

CORRECTION: I realized seconds after I posted the CW era tin back kepi button above that yours is not a match but I will not edit for educational purposes.

You will notice the Civil War era anchor flute tip is behind the wing. Yours is in front of the wing making it post Civil War. The button is also too large to be a kepi hat as compared to the Zincoln.. The rusted steel back means its a non-military replacement just as CBG said. Hard to tell without the back but thin steel back usualy equals 20th century. The old tinned steel backs were much heavier. Your second button is probably early 1900s

 

[rayrayvegas]

I have learned so much since I have joined this site thanks to everyone for providing pictures web sites knowledge ,stories and anything else they can give to make my finds easier to enjoy. Thanks!!!

 

[steelheadwill]

CORRECTION: I realized seconds after I posted the CW era tin back kepi button above that yours is not a match but I will not edit for educational purposes.

You will notice the Civil War era anchor flute tip is behind the wing. Yours is in front of the wing making it post Civil War. The button is also too large to be a kepi hat as compared to the Zincoln.. The rusted steel back means its a non-military replacement just as CBG said. Hard to tell without the back but thin steel back usualy equals 20th century. The old tinned steel backs were much heavier. Your second button is probably early 1900s

Nice work on the ID's,

I recovered one of the 'fashion' Navy buttons, iron back,
and displaying the same bulging drumsticks on the eagle, I like them just because of the rather curious appearance .
Not all 'Anchor in front of wing' Navy buttons are post CW,
many are, but you should check the backs . ie. Albert na113/Tice na230.
I had two of these in the 'seconds' box till I was informed and pleasantly surprised with a couple more CW keepers.
HH Everyone !!!

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Nice work on the ID's,

Not all 'Anchor in front of wing' Navy buttons are post CW,
many are, but you should check the backs . ie. Albert na113/Tice na230.
I had two of these in the 'seconds' box till I was informed and pleasantly surprised with a couple more CW keepers.
HH Everyone !!!

Good point.

I was referring to the tin back kepi hat button. I think all the tin steel back kepi hat buttons are "anchor behind the wing" type.


I dont have Alberts but here is a good link. Some of the US Navy even have rounded wings and bulging drumsticks. Yes there are exceptions to the rule. http://relicman.com/buttons/zArchiveButtonFederalNavyC2part.htm

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Nice work on the ID's,

I had two of these in the 'seconds' box till I was informed and pleasantly surprised with a couple more CW keepers.
HH Everyone !!!

I thought I made a great buy when I purchased some US Navy CW buttons on eBay listed as WWII. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/284988-what-value-these-buttons-1850-1882-a.html

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/285051-ele-co-cw-era.html

but because they were used from 1850-1882 (before and after the war) they are not generally considered collectible CW buttons. Most civil war button-collectors will only buy buttons which are strictly pre-1866.

 

[steelheadwill]

I thought I made a great buy when I purchased some US Navy CW buttons on eBay listed as WWII. http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/284988-what-value-these-buttons-1850-1882-a.html

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/285051-ele-co-cw-era.html

but because they were used from 1850-1882 (before and after the war) they are not generally considered collectible CW buttons. Most civil war button-collectors will only buy buttons which are strictly pre-1866.

I didn't see reply # 9 before posting this, you understand what I was saying,
Best wishes my friend !!

BigCypressHunter,
Not disputing the provenance of those particular buttons
From what I see it would all depend on the particular backmark, With 34 BM varieties of the na 230, I can agree many were still being made postwar.
I looked up a couple, from a single manufacturer for the sake of time, (flipping from BM dates to NA230 page)
Tice na230-a19 *STEELE&JOHNSON*1861 RMDC,
and a20 ".&.STEELE.&.JOHNSON" DM , were both listed exclusively pre 1865.
The two I have recovered bear "*SCOVILL MF'G*WATERBURY" DM, dotted rings", a single year 1860 mark.
I just don't want to see prize CW buttons set aside just because of the anchor fluke position.
Best wishes! Herbie.

 

[steelheadwill]

Here's a very crude example of a Navy fashion button I found, stripped to the core by saltwater.
Apologies for hijacking this post Ray

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Please pardon me too, Rayrayvegas, but I feel I should "publicize" the following information, regarding the button shown as NA-114 in the button-book by Alpheaus H. Albert.

As some of you probably already know, Mr. Tice's button-book deliberately excludes buttons he believes are non-military buttons or were made only after the end of the civil war (1865). Albert's NA-114 is one of those exclusions. That cannot be an accidental omission -- NA-114 is not a rare button, yet it is not shown or mentioned in Tice's book.

Also:
I do not believe Albert's button #NA-114 is an actual US Navy button, but instead is a Fashion button, for several reasons besides its exclusion from the Tice book:
1- the rope doesn't pass through the anchor's ring
2- the eagle has the very-puffy-and-round breast and drumsticks seen on Fashion buttons but not on actual US Navy buttons
3- Albert always tells the backmark when a button has one, and he gives no backmark for NA-114, and Fashion imitation-navy buttons typically (although not absolutely always) lack a backmark.

EDIT: I got a friendly heads-up in a Private Message, alerting me to an error in this post. I was thinking of button NA-114 (rope does not pass through the anchor's ring), but had a "senior moment" while typing the post, and said 113 instead of 114. I've now corrected the error. Sorry about that.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I didn't see reply # 9 before posting this, you understand what I was saying,
Best wishes my friend !!

BigCypressHunter,
Not disputing the provenance of those particular buttons...


...I just don't want to see prize CW buttons set aside just because of the anchor fluke position.
Best wishes! Herbie.

Yes I understand, all things need to be considered, especially backmark or lack of backmark and shank in determining a button. The anchor fluke alone does not determine a button. Very good point.

 

[rayrayvegas]

No problem guys I love these type of discussions all it does is just add knowledge this big brain of mine..

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I found my tin plated steel back "Navy" button still not positively identified but most likely the same as yours. Anchor in front of wing, steel back.... fashion button

 

[steelheadwill]

I'd say just from the 'crude' strike and poor details not up to 'Milspec'
(no feet or anchor bands, also those puffy knees and breast)
they are fun finds though

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

I didnt notice the no feet lol. It was in an eBay grouping of about 10 buttons. All the others were authentic.