Mini Cannon Ball?

[GoldenEagle]

Found on a WI farm during an excavation project, neighbors found a brick size piece of pure copper and green colored arrowheads.
where = Medford WI
weight= 4 ounces
metal type= steel
age= unknown

Who can solve this one?

 

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[rustydigger]

Grapeshot maybe?

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

As my posting-nickname implies, cannonballs are my specialty. To help you know with certainty whether your mystery-ball is any type of cannonball, or not, there are some questions about it which need specific answers.

You say your mystery-ball is made of steel. How did you determine that's what the metal is? If it is steel, it is definitely not a cannonball, because no cannonballs were made of steel.

If it is made of cast-iron, or of steel, I would assume it came out of the ground with a lot of rust or similar iron-based oxidation on it. Has it been cleaned, and if so, how? I'm asking because in its current condition, with some white-ish pitting showing on its surface, it doesn't look like either iron or steel. Instead, it currently looks like zinc or a zinc alloy.

In addition to answers to all the questions above, extra-precise diamter and weight measurements are needed ...because those measurements for every cannonball (and grapeshot-ball) used in America are well-documented in Historical records. For example, go here:
www.civilwarartillery.com/shottables.htm
If your mystery-ball's extra-precise size and weight don't match up with that data, the ball is not a cannonball.

By the way... I'm sure it is not a grapeshot-ball, because even the smallest caliber of grapeshot ball was larger than your mystery-ball.

 

[Brian C.]

Here is one I found I found several years back. It is brass I am sure, it has the green patina of either copper or bronze. The location was in the area the military trained in the 1880s time period or in that time period. I have heard of larger brass cannon balls found in the lake Huron area here in Canada. I would like to think this is what these neat items were used for. Nice find. Nt

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Sorry to have to disappoint anybody, but despite what you may see claimed by sellers on Ebay, there were absolutely no brass or bronze or copper cannonballs (nor Grapeshot-balls, nor Canister-balls) used in North America. The reason is, those metals are FAR more costly than simple cast-iron ...and they don't do any more damage to the enemy than a cast-iron ball does. You know how small a penny is, and how much stuff even 10 cents would buy in the 1700s and 1800s. Why would anybody put put even 25 cents worth of copper/brass/bronze into a cannonball, when the same amount (by weight) of common cast-iron cost only ONE cent and made just as deadly a projectile? Think about how many copper US-cent coins it would take to make a 12-pound cannonball.

If you still don't believe me, check the Scrap-Metals-Market price for one pound of copper (or brass, etc) versus the price for one pound of iron.

You'll probably ask, okay I believe you, but then what ARE these brass and bronze and copper balls?

The answer comes in two parts. First part: Unlike with cannonballs, there are some circumstances where iron does not work as well as those other metals, or is outright unsuitable for the work. For example, iron can cause sparks, but those other metals cannot. Also, iron rusts up pretty quickly when exposed to water and weather.
Second part, about what the brass or bronze or copper balls actually are. Some were used for pulverizing gunpowder during the powder-manufacturing process ...or for pulverizing other materials if a spark would be dangerous. Other non-iron balls were used as a counterweight-ball in "wet" environments, where rusting would cause problems (such as, a water-well pump counterweight). And others were used as "polisher" balls in a tumbler-mill, because brras/bronze/copper are "softer" metal than iron.

 

[Kieth-Tx]

TheCannonballguy-I think you need to change your statement to maybe read...no American cannonballs or cannister balls were made of copper. I have personally dug many copper cannister balls at the Palo Alto Battlefield...in Brownsville Texas. The copper shot was laying right alongside iron shot that had been fired during that battle with the Mexican army. I have also seen brass/copper "cannonballs" dug in the same area having the exact diameter of the iron cannonballs we are finding. We have hunted alongside the archeologists in mapping out this National Park battlefield.

http://books.google.com/books?id=W1...&q=palo alto mexican army cannon shot&f=false

 

[BosnMate]

I read that in the war with Mexico in 1846 the Mexican army used copper or brass cannon balls, but what the cannon ball guy is saying is the United States, Canada, Great Britain or France didn't use that metal, so the only place in the United States that one could expect to find a brass or copper cannonball would be in Texas. The same book also said the Mexicans didn't use enough powder, and they could see the shot coming, and the soldiers were able to dodge it, but the horses suffered. I think there has probably been a lot of rusty ball bearings sold on Ebay that were called cannister shot. There are ball mill cast iron balls and shot put balls that have also been sold for cannon balls. I had a guy in a junk store trying to sell me a 12 lb. shot put for a confederate cannonball, because the "confederates marked their shot with the weight." Just because it's round doesn't mean it's a cannon ball, and just because someone says it is doesn't mean it's true. If the guy in the junk store could find a sucker -- well, Barnum said their was one born every minute.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Keith-Tx, thank you very much for the info that Mexican Army copper canister-balls have been dug at the 1847 US-Mexican War battle of Palo Alto, Texas.

I was already aware that the Mexican Army had fired copper canister-balls at the US Army during the 1847 battle of Cerro Gordo, which is in Mexico. That is why my post said no copper cannon/grape/canister-balls were "used in North America." (For anybody who doesn't already know, Mexico is part of Central America, not North America.)

I do appreciate hearing your personal testimony about Palo Alto. In the future, whenever I answer a digger's question about finding a copper/brass/bronze cannonball, I will include a mention of Palo Alto, in extreme southern Texas near Mexico, as the sole exception to the "none in North America" answer.

Also, for people who don't already know, copper is a frequent byproduct of Silver mining and refining. Insofar as is currently known, during the centuries when Spain owned Mexico, the Spanish did not use any of the surplus copper from silver refining for making artillery balls. But after Mexico became independent from Spain, the Mexicans did manufacture some copper canister-balls, apparently due to a brief shortage of iron because of the US Navy's blockade of Mexican seaports during the 1846-48 Mexican-American war.

A bit of additional explanation: Field Artillery canister-balls are between 1.07 and 1.48 inches in diameter, and thus contain only 3-to-7 ounces of copper. Apparently, during the iron-supply shortage the Mexicans felt they could afford to use some of their surplus copper supply for making 3-to-7 ounce canister-balls, but they didn't use it for "full size" cannonballs, which weigh 6-to-12 pounds.

Edit: BosnMate's post arrived while I was still typing mine. He is right, absolutely NO cannonballs were ever marked with their weight. If a ball has a number telling its weight on it, it is definitely not a cannonball. Gunners don't need to know a ball's exact weight ...but Shot Put contestants and Counterweight users do.

 

[Kieth-Tx]

Good post Cannonballguy! I have dug lots of pieces of cannonballs....but never a whole one which as my friends that I detect with can attest...is my Holy Grail! Maybe one day.
HH-Kieth

 

[timekiller]

Just wanted to add this....they did make bronze covered iron cannon balls (not North America)but were made in 17th century.They did this on ships because of them rusting so bad.They would be rare but have been found.If you would like to see go here.....
Page 280-281
http://issuu.com/sedwickcoins/docs/_ta_6__october_2009x?mode=window&backgroundColor=#000000
Take Care,
Pete,
Also here lot 1905 page 320 pair of brass cannon balls.
http://issuu.com/sedwickcoins/docs/_ta_7__april_2010?mode=window&backgroundColor=#000000

Also three solid bronze cannon balls here...lot 379 page 152 on bottom scoll or 150 in the book
http://issuu.com/sedwickcoins/docs/_ta_1__may_2007?mode=window&backgroundColor=#000000

 

[Brian C.]

Just wanted to add this....they did make bronze covered iron cannon balls (not North America)but were made in 17th century.They did this on ships because of them rusting so bad.They would be rare but have been found.If you would like to see go here.....
Page 280-281
http://issuu.com/sedwickcoins/docs/_ta_6__october_2009x?mode=window&backgroundColor=#000000
Take Care,
Pete,
Also here lot 1905 page 320 pair of brass cannon balls.
http://issuu.com/sedwickcoins/docs/_ta_7__april_2010?mode=window&backgroundColor=#000000

Also three solid bronze cannon balls here...lot 379 page 152 on bottom scoll or 150 in the book
http://issuu.com/sedwickcoins/docs/_ta_1__may_2007?mode=window&backgroundColor=#000000

Thanks for the great info on these brass balls.

 

[Brian C.]

Here is some pictures that show the small bore cannon. They were used on a small boat or the cannon was not really heavy, two people could carry the gun to different locations and then fire from a hill or behind some bushes. Here is proof that there were small guns, but it does not mention the material the projectile was made from. It is a good conversation topic. Nt.

 

[Kieth-Tx]

Brian C-The Mexican cannister shot that we dug looked just like what you are holding. Do not know the exact diameter but will be back there soon and get a measurement. Love the patina!

 

[Brian C.]

Brian C-The Mexican cannister shot that we dug looked just like what you are holding. Do not know the exact diameter but will be back there soon and get a measurement. Love the patina!

The place I found this was when the city was digging up the old side walks and sewers, who knows how it got there other than it was fired from the military site just a few hundred feet away? They are are a welcome find. NT

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Just wanted to add this....they did make bronze covered iron cannon balls (not North America)but were made in 17th century.They did this on ships because of them rusting so bad.They would be rare but have been found.If you would like to see go here.....
Page 280-281
http://issuu.com/sedwickcoins/docs/_ta_6__october_2009x?mode=window&backgroundColor=#000000
Take Care,
Pete,
Also here lot 1905 page 320 pair of brass cannon balls.
http://issuu.com/sedwickcoins/docs/_ta_7__april_2010?mode=window&backgroundColor=#000000

Also three solid bronze cannon balls here...lot 379 page 152 on bottom scoll or 150 in the book
http://issuu.com/sedwickcoins/docs/_ta_1__may_2007?mode=window&backgroundColor=#000000

The following info is not an attack on Timekiller, who merely posted the Links. (Please note, all 3 of the links go the same Auction-seller's website). This reply is intended as helpful educational info. I feel I must speak up, because some readers here may view the Auction-seller's SALES-PITCH as being Authoritative proof about brass/copper/bronze "cannonballs."

That Auction-seller apparently does not know "a lot" about Historical artillery projectiles, because he misidentifies what appears to be a modern-era Counterweight ball or Sports Shot-Put ball as being a bronze cannonball (in Link #3, page 150, lot #379), supposedly found on a 1654 Spanish shpwreck. I cannot copy the photo of that bronze/brass ball into this post, but it has a circular plug with two spanner-wrench holes. The ball in the Auction-seller's photo appears to be a near-perfect match for the balls in these two photos (attached below), which show modern-era brass/bronze Sports Shot-Put balls for sale on Ebay. Note the two-hole plug in them, and compare them with the Auction-seller's ball.

Also note, the Auction-seller says the ball is 4 inches in diameter -- and one of the Ebay bronze/brass Shot Put balls is marked "95MM" [millimeters], which is just slightly less than 4 inches.

A scuba-diver may indeed have found the ball at or near a mid-1600s shipwreck -- but is that conclusive proof it's a cannonball? Apparently not.

TreasureNet readers, please do not assume that relic-ID by internet sellers is reliable.

 

[moondog]

Hold on Parnder, here in south/east Texas we dig lots of copper cannonballs that belonged to the Mexican army of 1836 and before. They have been found at San Antonio, Goliad, East Bernard, Richmond, San Jacinto ,the Sea of Mud, Refugio, Velasco & Quintanna & etc. The Mexicans had an abundance of copper and made everything from 6 inch Howitzer shells to 4ounce cannister shot in copper and brass. Check out my book "A Search for Texas" and see all the different examples found.

 

[moondog]

Yes, you are right about the copper Palo Alto cannon balls.

 

[moondog]

That is not a copper cannonbal for sure, shot put I would say.

 

[jwelch66]

What about a ball bearing from a farm equipment?

 

[pfecteau]

Hi Everyone...I am new to TreasureNet as of today. I found what I believe is a cannon ball but does not seem to meet the specs I have read for Grape Shot or Canister Shot. it is 2 inches in diameter, weighs 1 lb 7.5 ozs ( at least 1/2 lb. heavier than grape or canister shot I have seen on charts). Seems to be made of Iron as it is magnetic and is very pitted from aging. I found it while traversing a cliff along the Arkansas River in Colorado about 5 miles downstream (East) of the town of Howard. I didn't find any history on US military/Cavalry skirmishes in the immediate area (but there are some documented within 10 miles or so from where this was found). I'm hoping someone can help me identify what this might be?

Thanks,

Paul