Misc data and adventures of a Tayopa treasure hunter

[PROSPECTORMIKEL]

Incredible!
I take off one day to pay bills, and missed a week of incredible discussions.

Oh well, I’m caught up now... Kanacki, the cartoon make up looks picture perfect , but it seems that the bottom of the ocean is fraught with many pit falls.
Can they truly work the great unknown ocean bottom in it’s true condition?
Or have I over thought that part??

Not doubting the equipment... it just seems a bit hard to kick the tires and check the oil..so to speak.

Other than seeming to be over simplified, they look very capable.

Super sluicing it is!!

#/;0{>~

 

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[Simon1]

Indeed Kanacki, that treasure map was/is impressive. One can only dream of what else lies out there. As far as the book, I would be remiss if I did not at least ask, but understand what you are saying.

 

[Simon1]

I am just brimming with curiosity Kanack, Do you believe in the treasure associated with the Flor de la Mar ?

 

[KANACKI]

I am just brimming with curiosity Kanack, Do you believe in the treasure associated with the Flor de la Mar ?

Hello Simon.

Sadly I know very little about the Flor De Mar. The Person to contact is man by the name Pascal. He spent many years diving for treasure in Indonesia. He is retired now because Indonesian authorities shut down any treasure hunting in the country these days. Pascal made a big discovery of Chinese junk full of Ming dynasty porcelain. He has a penthouse in Jakarta. I believe he also owns a tourist resort somewhere in Indonesia. He was a friend of Cornelius a Dutchman that used post on treasurenet shipwreck forum many years ago. I think he has passed away. He also spent years researching the Flor de la Mar.

He is another character with many stories to tell. He gave Hardluck a map of an atoll in the Indian ocean several years ago with positions of two VOC Shipwrecks with possibly considerably amount of treasure on them.

Kanacki

 

[KANACKI]

Incredible!
I take off one day to pay bills, and missed a week of incredible discussions.

Oh well, I’m caught up now... Kanacki, the cartoon make up looks picture perfect , but it seems that the bottom of the ocean is fraught with many pit falls.
Can they truly work the great unknown ocean bottom in it’s true condition?
Or have I over thought that part??

Not doubting the equipment... it just seems a bit hard to kick the tires and check the oil..so to speak.

Other than seeming to be over simplified, they look very capable.

Super sluicing it is!!

#/;0{>~

Hello PM

The cartoon illustrating was created by environmentalists with some of claims of potential problems is environmental bias. Especially when they say noise pollution etc... A bit over top miles out to sea. while indeed the could be slurry problems of leakage that depends on the quality of production methods. The sea floor with hydro thermal vents spewing out minerals is technically a dead zone anyway.

The Environmentalist fear if this project is success then it will open a whole new era of deep sea mining around the globe. That is why they are looking for any excuse of negativity to sink the project. When the project first started Environmentalists gave a large set criteria for the proposal to be passed. And when the company addressed all the issues they wanted to add more. And disputed the research of their own academics that first set the criteria in the first place. After that fell flat in face they went to the local population saying the operation was going to destroy fish stocks and worried local fisherman not benefiting from the project to protest. There is no evidence of that because the slurry system works on hydrology and is technically a sealed system. If there is leakage in the pipeline the slurry system automatically shuts down. So the possibility of slurry leakage near the surface is remote.

But what is conveniently omitted by the environmental group fighting the company in pointless court cases. Is being bankrolled by a Chinese consortium that has links to Chinese rare earth consortium control by the Chinese government who do not want their monopoly broken.

Anglo American mining reduced its investment from the project because China has invested billions of dollars in infrastructure projects in west Africa. And has put the hard word on those in debt African nations to not consider renewing Anglo American mining concession worth much more than what they have invested into nautilus minerals. That and the Iron ore operating in Brazil that import Iron ore to China. The Chinese are hoping to peck away at the nautilus mineral investor base to bankrupt the project.

The mining game is dirty business my friend.

Kanacki

 

[Mackaydon]

Kanacki,
Re: "He was a friend of Cornelius a Dutchman that used post on treasurenet shipwreck forum many years ago. I think he has passed away. He also spent years researching the Flor de la Mar."

Cornelius was on TNet for some time, left and has returned. He is also on Facebook or another social platform. He once offerred to assist me with search and salvage permits in that area but the distance to travel was out of my range.
Don......

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Simon, The word is simple procrastination Mdog, you are precisely the type of person that I was referring to,an un publised hero, I hope your wife and kids apreciate you, kanacki, I koow what you mean, but so far no one has offered to pay me to keep quiet, sniff. I have followed several treasure & Tayopa and the deposit maps successfully. I have recovered my typing abilities onal nicely, maybe I'll even conqure ny procrastinoalon tendencies. have recovered my abities to make new words.

 

[KANACKI]

Simon, The word is simple procrastination Mdog, you are precisely the type of person that I was referring to,an un publised hero, I hope your wife and kids apreciate you, kanacki, I koow what you mean, but so far no one has offered to pay me to keep quiet, sniff. I have followed several treasure & Tayopa and the deposit maps successfully. I have recovered my typing abilities onal nicely, maybe I'll even conqure ny procrastinoalon tendencies. have recovered my abities to make new words.

Hello Don Jose Many years ago I worked with man by the name Rex Garner he one of most loyal hardworking men I have ever met. An excellent bushman one more capable handling himself in highlands of New Guinea.He has been dead for about 23 years now. Years ago he had samples of very rich silver ore he had found in canyon high up in mountains of new guinea.

Try as he might although the samples was extremely rich, mining companies was not interested. I asked company director for CRA who I was working for at the time. He smiled and said creating a massive new mine is massive financial undertaking. That needs capital from sources that need more proof to understand the size of ore body. That in turn requires a smaller exploration company to have enough capital to take on the risk, providing they have exploration licence for that area. But many mining leases around the world are held by speculators who can sit them on them for years, As long as they spend taking sames every 2 years or so in effect an activity classed as a mining activity they can hold the lease for years.

Smaller miners operate on the principle that they start developing the mine enough to interest one of big player in mining to buy them out or take a majority share holding in the project because they had the required capital to develop and operate the mine.

Many years ago the Trio had a small underground gold reef mining operation in Northern Australia. It was series of old mining tenements in North Queensland. Truth be told it nearly bankrupted us.First even tho it was small mine we had operate as registered company. And comply with Australian mine safety act be registered open for OHS mine safety work cover inspection. 2. We had to draft JSA and written operating procedures for all jobs on site and of course various logbooks and legal requirements. At first gold prices was low at the time we would operated only intermittently and rest of year the site was in care and maintenance. When mining work was hard to come by we could get a few good underground miners to worker there. Most was old not able to meet requirements of larger mines that openly discriminate men over 40.

When gold prices rose and a boom occurred wages went up 3 times more than I could afford to pay them. All of sudden because of demand my older workers was fashionable again. So the only workers we could attract was largely un experienced kids off the street with no experience at all. It was nightmare as many are not suited to the job. And the ones that was half way decent we got all the tickets for as soon as they was qualified they would take off to bigger mines for more money. In the end we had it in care and maintenance with one person living on site as care taker and occasional visit by us to mine as we had other projects.

We had about 6 million dollars of gold in the reef as prices went up to about 18 million. But in the end the operating costs exceeded what we was extracting. While no doubt when the mine was first discovered around 1900 it was viable project. Reef mine was exceeding rich but without no rich ore body in host rock no big miner was interested in the mine. In the end we sold it to group of retirees that mine what they can at leisure.

We learned from that mistake as we tried to make a small mine into working commercial project although it had long since lost the capacity to do so. Now we really look at projects with an eye to economies of scale....

Kanacki

 

[KANACKI]

Kanacki,
Re: "He was a friend of Cornelius a Dutchman that used post on treasurenet shipwreck forum many years ago. I think he has passed away. He also spent years researching the Flor de la Mar."

Cornelius was on TNet for some time, left and has returned. He is also on Facebook or another social platform. He once offerred to assist me with search and salvage permits in that area but the distance to travel was out of my range.
Don......

Hello Don

He must be getting on in years by now. Last I heard of him he was in Florida. He was a full on no nonsense type of feller. Very passionate about shipwrecks.

Kanacki

 

[KANACKI]

Hi Don Jose. I used to read those Doc Savage paperbacks too. I have always remembered how Doc set aside an hour a day to concentrate on important interests. A good idea. I am one of those guys that decided to stay close to my family. I learned, in the Army, that there is a very thin line that separates adventure from tragedy. My wife needed me close to raise our family and I didn't take any needless risks. It's been an adventure, but a different kind.

Hello mdog nothing wrong with that my friend. In fact you are one of many unsung heroes that worked hard and brought up a family in some times trying conditions life throws at you while many others have walked away. That is some thing to be very proud of.

Kanacki

 

[KANACKI]

I have been lucky to see amazing places in my life time that other people have rarely seen. The following place is what the local natives call the lost city of Kun Do?

Is a natural formation that looks like a lost city. But was once an ancient sea floor and those pillars are actually old sms deposit vents full of gold, silver, copper and rare earth minerals. When the sea was thrust up thousands of feet above the seafloor when the Australia continent smashed into new guinea plate millions of year ago.






There are is lot larger than photographs do justice in fact cover several kms in rolling mountain country.

Kanacki

 

[Simon1]

Hello Simon.

Sadly I know very little about the Flor De Mar. The Person to contact is man by the name Pascal. He spent many years diving for treasure in Indonesia. He is retired now because Indonesian authorities shut down any treasure hunting in the country these days. Pascal made a big discovery of Chinese junk full of Ming dynasty porcelain. He has a penthouse in Jakarta. I believe he also owns a tourist resort somewhere in Indonesia. He was a friend of Cornelius a Dutchman that used post on treasurenet shipwreck forum many years ago. I think he has passed away. He also spent years researching the Flor de la Mar.

He is another character with many stories to tell. He gave Hardluck a map of an atoll in the Indian ocean several years ago with positions of two VOC Shipwrecks with possibly considerably amount of treasure on them.

Kanacki

====
Kanacki:
Thank you very much for the added information. I will add that to my research. And again, thank you for all the information and help you have been sharing, some of which can not be found in some books.

 

[Simon1]

Don Jose, yes, your typing has greatly improved and we see it more frequently now. We are all rooting for you sir .

 

[Mackaydon]

On Mar. 7, 2015 Cornelius wrote regarding the FdM:" Tony Wells wil tell you a different version (from Bob Marx's version) if you are truly interested in the Flor do Mar . I spent many years in Indonesia and am an adopted son of the ruler of the Province of Natal ( next to Aceh ) . I know Hutomo Mandala Putra ( or Tommy Suharto as Bob called him ). Also Mr.Salim is someone I know quite well ( Chinese ! and very rich )."
I'll try to find Cornelius's current contact point.
Don....
PS: His last activity on TN was on 11/11/16

 

[mdog]

Good evening Don Jose. I have a question for you. For many years there has been debate on the Treasure Signs/Symbols forum about stone monuments found in North America and used to locate cache sites. I would like to know if you have ever seen any large stone hearts or stone owls that might have been used in such away. I'm interested in finding out if these monuments have been found in Mexico and if they extend as far south as Mexico City. Thank you sir.

 

[Simon1]

Thank you for sharing that information Don. I will probably never see that part of the world now, but have always, ( 55+ years ), held a fascination for that shipwreck.

 

[mdog]

Thank you for sharing that information Don. I will probably never see that part of the world now, but have always, ( 55+ years ), held a fascination for that shipwreck.

Hi Simon. After you asked about the shipwreck, I looked it up and was surprised at the story. I would love to see that treasure recovered just to see the artifacts. Great story.

 

[Simon1]

Hi Simon. After you asked about the shipwreck, I looked it up and was surprised at the story. I would love to see that treasure recovered just to see the artifacts. Great story.

=======
The ship left port to never be seen again.

Like everything else, there are so many versions.
A. it never happened
B. it happened, but was recovered by the survivors and people from the island
C. it happened, but was only partially recovered
D. no physical proof of wreckage as of yet
E. ?

This story was always more fascinating to me than the San Jose.

 

[KANACKI]

Hello Simon

I do not know this is of interest the following article.

Written by Article By: Mohd. Sherman b. Sauffi (Maritime Archaeology Museum) below.

The legend of the lost ship on the Portuguese fleet called Flor De La Mar (Flower Of The Seas) had been an agenda of story telling, speculations and assumptions for many years since her lost in December 1511. Lots of theories and speculations about her, that make her 'A billion dollar baby', some said that she lost or vanished on the unfaithful event, some said that she have been taken over and all the treasures are stolen, some says that she had been destroyed by rivals ships and most provocative some says that the ship was not lost and know whereabouts the ship but somehow until now, well 500 years later, it can never be found elsewhere and remains a mysteries.

Enjoy the silence? We are actually got away from our leagues ladies and gentlemen. Before we jump into conclusions about anything, there's a good start we look at the early document of 'Portuguese Document On Malacca 1509 until 1511', collected, translated and annotated by the late M.J Pintado with National Archives of Malaysia in 1993. It is a 'Long Term Project' which was started the ideas since 1974. Credits goes to all the personnel who work on the project especially Dato' Zakiah Hanum Nor, Ex-Director General National Archive Malaysia.

The written historiography collections with importance which had information about Malacca, 'Letters from Alfonso de Albuquerque' in 7 volumes and the six Chroniclers - Joao de Barros, Diogo do Couto, Fernao Lopes de Castanheda, Gaspar Correia, Damiao de Goes and Manuel de Faria e Sousa. The document itself had information about what really happen to the ship Flor de La Mar.

On the Document 2 (1511), Portuguese Republic Ministry of Colonies Asia Joao de Barros, Chapter II, 'What Alfonso went through along the route that he took fom Cochin to the island of Sumatra, where he was visited by the King of Pedir and Pasai and what else he did up to the time he arrived in Malacca', Document no. 13 noted ' …together with other jewellery taken as spoils from Malacca and put on aboard the galleon Flor de La Mar, as we shall further on'.

The unfortunate event that bring Flor de La Mar to bottom of the sea stated on the Book Seven Of The Second Decade of Asia by Joao de Barros, 'The Achievements of the Potuguese in the exploration and conquests in the lands and seas of the east, after Alfonso de Albuquerque's departure from Malacca to his entry into the red sea' Document no. 224, ' Above all they had to brave the fury of the storms at sea and the danger of the sandbanks near the coasts….', Document no.225, 'The truth of this we are going to see in the notable example of Alfonso de Albuquerque, who left Malacca with his galleons filled with trophies. Sailed as far as the Kingdom of Aru at the end of the region called Timia Point in Sumatra. There at night his galleon was dashed against a hidden reef and broke up into two parts with the poop in one section and the prow in the other, because the ship was old and the seas heavy'.

Alfonso indeed inside the ship and his men unable to get aid from other ships that sails along with them. By the following morning, Pero de Alpoem, a captain from another ship called 'Trindade', gave aid for the shipwrecked men in a ship's boat and save them from tragic fate. During the period of danger, Alfonso had many precious things in his ship but the only 'precious things' he saved was a little girl, the daughter of one of his slaves, while standing on a raft he held the child in his arms – the only things that he saved from among the rich spoils he had obtain from Malacca which were in his galleon. The great loss of Alfonso which is refers to his honor on the ship were the two lions hollowed iron, fine piece of craftsmanship and artistry, which the emperor of China had sent as gift to the Sultan of Malacca.

Another interesting note on the event was the mutiny by the Javanese workers, on a Junk in the company of Jorges Nunes de Leao, the junk did not steer along the right course and entered the port of Aru, where the Javanese and the natives robbed it. Alfonso did go the wreck site with seeking help of Captain Jorge Bothello by using a ship Carravel type and enquire the natives who dived for pearls to dive the wreck site. However, the natives near the coastal area of Pasai might have robbed most of the cargo.

There were more than 10 ships responsible on the Malacca invasion campaign by the Portuguese in 1511, to name few, Flor de La Mar, Trindade, Anunciada, Santo Antonio, Santa Cruz, Bretao, Taforeia, Enxobregas, Cambaia, Santa Caterina, Joia, Santiago and Sao Joao. The Portuguese were the first pioneering Europeans to established empire in Southeast Asia by the invasion of Malacca , August 1511 througout 130 years before the Dutch did. Alfonso de Alburquerque died in 1515, where he left behind the legacy of navigations and established Portuguese maritime control from the Persian Gulf to Malacca, to the great enrichment of the monarchy.

However, some questionable speculations about The Flor de La Mar cargoes: where did it really go? Where all the treasures of Malacca Sultanate that had been robbed? If the ship were broke into two parts, why nowadays people claim that they knew and found the wreck?

If we calculate for 500 years including the changing of tides, currents and based on the unstable geographical of Sumatera, does the ship still there? Just for comparison, the Fort Santiago at Malacca A' Famosa fortress if we look at the picture closely we sees that the sea is near the fort but 500 years later then compare the picture with the new land of Malacca, it is about 5 kilometers out from the cultural sites. Now look at the Sumatera coastal area and think again. More research need to be taken and document to be analyzed, considerations for regions political issues, economics and diplomacy. We need to take a deeper look to this point so that the cultural heritage of Malaysia, Indonesia and Portuguese will be preserved with proper research and a little bit of sincerity in doing it.


Phil-Sherman William @ Mohd. Sherman bin Sauffi
Maritime Archaeological Museum
Department Of Museums and Antiquities
Jalan Damansara
50566 Kuala Lumpur
MALAYSIA
Tel: 603 2282 6255 ext 228
Fax: 603 2284 9103
H/p: 6013 895 0198


Kanacki

 

[Shortfinger]

Howdy Shortfinger,

Kanacki and I have no difference of opinion. I was only making fun of where I live because it seems like the complete opposite of "as close to Heaven". My problem is that I have always been a man of few words, since most of my posts are very short. I never put all my thoughts down. I could have added that I would never trade my place for any other, as it is my heaven on earth. Since I was born, and raised here, I see the brush land as beautiful. It's kind of like a face that only a mother could love kind of deal.

Simon,

You may be right, I have been attacked by killer bees once, so I would rather deal with snakes anytime. As a matter of fact I dealed with snakes for many years, the most that I sold at one time was $500.00 worth when they were at $5.00 a pound. Never did buy a snake catching tool, just used a 3 foot pvc pipe with a loop, and my hand when I didn't have it with me.

Mikel,

You are always full of good ideas, but I just have four posts left to peel, and scorpions stings don't really bother me that much. My wife thinks I'm crazy because I don't use leather gloves, knowing that they are full of scorpions. As long as they don't climb up inside my pants, i'm ok. The wild hog still sounds good, but it will have to be the Pit-Master the one who does the catching. I just learned from my older son, about a month ago, that Hado, the youngest, use to kill them with a knife alone. When he was in high school, he, and other football players would go chasing wild hogs, leap on them, and kill them with a knife. I do remember him coming home several times all dirty, with torn shirts.

Homar

Hi, Homar. I should have known that you really didn’t think Texas was “Hell on earth”. I guess I’m a little sensitive, since many of my friends and family repeatedly question me as to why I am leaving the “paradise” of SoCal for Yuma….My answer is, “It isn’t the place but the people”.

JB