Need further investigation

[tamrock]

I just picked these up an couple of hours ago on this rainy afternoon. Two candlesticks at 4 dollars each. They seem odd and I thought they looked like that quadruple plate stuff as they are not your normal wrought worked silver items, but heavy cast pieces with an old gold wash. They are both fully hallmarked on the bottom and that's why I said these are either a big score or a Tom Foolery on me?. They are also marked with a Scottish Clan Coat of Arms. One is missing a wax drip pan and that's a bummer and it is odd that the one drip pan has no marks, as I would expect all removable parts to be hallmarked. They weigh together 746 grams. I'll update the status on these, good or not good, after I go see my precious metals man for his opinion. I'm not off the fence on these as of yet.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[diggummup]

Very unusual candlesticks. I bet they are very old. The crest is known as a garter crest with a lion passant in the center . Does the quote say "factus non victus"? I can't make out the first word. A little on the lion passant since I see it is also hallmarked on the piece besides the crest logo.
Silver Forums at 925-1000.com

 

[diggummup]

I just looked at the first photo. It has a crowned leopards head too.That's a British standard. I believe you have some sterling sticks.
British Sterling - English Hallmarks, Irish Hallmarks & Scottish Hallmarks

edit- looks like 1910- http://www.925-1000.com/dlLondon.html

 

[tamrock]

Very unusual candlesticks. I bet they are very old. The crest is known as a garter crest with a lion passant in the center . Does the quote say "factus non victus"? I can't make out the first word. A little on the lion passant since I see it is also hallmarked on the piece besides the crest logo.
Silver Forums at 925-1000.com

Diggs, I did note the passant crowned lion. The quote reads VINCTUS NON VICTUS, note the addition on the letter "N" in the first word. I've just never come across old silver constructed in this way. I'm looking now to find that date mark (P) in that style cartouche. To me these sticks are similar in the way you'd see some old cast brass one's from India. They almost look Indian in style to me. All the engraving is definitely hand chased work and that also reminds me of Indian like or maybe Moroccan in style also. This makes me wonder if these could be faked in a way. They just don't speak English to me, but maybe they are?. I'll have them tested tomorrow to see if in fact they are silver. The hallmarks all look correct at first glance. Thanks! for the info and anymore you may add.

Well according to the date chart for London silver on the 925-1000 site this P in this cartouche is for the year 1750. This is hard to believe I found something this old in a thrift store, but on the other hand it was this same thrift store I found a cut crystal bowl with a silver handle on it that had a Austro-Hungarian hallmark date of 1840 on that handle.

I also found these antique Georgian candlesticks made made by John Cafe of London in 1754. The base and the top piece have the same shape and form. They look to be constructed in the same way mine are. Mine are shorter at 5-1/2'' http://www.bryandouglas.co.uk/silverware/candlesticks_medium/j8094/j8094a.htm

 

[vpnavy]

Neat.

 

[mkulltra]

Let us know what you find out and if they are silver.

 

[Butter Hat]

I'm waiting! Great find.

 

[diggummup]

Diggs, I did note the passant crowned lion. The quote reads VINCTUS NON VICTUS, note the addition on the letter "N" in the first word. I've just never come across old silver constructed in this way. I'm looking now to find that date mark (P) in that style cartouche. To me these sticks are similar in the way you'd see some old cast brass one's from India. They almost look Indian in style to me. All the engraving is definitely hand chased work and that also reminds me of Indian like or maybe Moroccan in style also. This makes me wonder if these could be faked in a way. They just don't speak English to me, but maybe they are?. I'll have them tested tomorrow to see if in fact they are silver. The hallmarks all look correct at first glance. Thanks! for the info and anymore you may add.

Well according to the date chart for London silver on the 925-1000 site this P in this cartouche is for the year 1750. This is hard to believe I found something this old in a thrift store, but on the other hand it was this same thrift store I found a cut crystal bowl with a silver handle on it that had a Austro-Hungarian hallmark date of 1840 on that handle.

I also found these antique Georgian candlesticks made made by John Cafe of London in 1754. The base and the top piece have the same shape and form. They look to be constructed in the same way mine are. Mine are shorter at 5-1/2'' Candlesticks in Antique Sterling Silver Bryan Douglas Antique Sterling Silver Candlesticks

Yes that date mark does look like 1750! Let me know what you find out. They don't look like regular silver sticks do they? I was thinking pre 1800's too at first just because of the crowned leopard's head and the look of that hand worked crest. The crowned leopard's head signifies the city of London and was only used until 1822 after that it was uncrowned. Then I thought I saw the date mark of 1910 but my eyes are bad and I was in too big of a rush last night to do any real digging. I don't think they are from India. I think you have a pair of gems there. It's the "gold wash" look that's throwing me off. Now, to decipher that crest...

 

[Lost&Found]

Congrats its a Very Nice Find. I thought the date mark is for 1750. Have you researched the makers mark yet? It could be SL or TS. You might want to research the outside engraving to see if it is a british family crest.

UK FAMILY CRESTS or http://books.google.com/books?id=X8...6AEwAQ#v=onepage&q=vinctus non victus&f=false

It couldn't hurt to send some pics to Soethebys and/or Christies to get their opinion.

And it gets more interesting and confusing. vinctus non victus is "undefeated in prison" as per google translate and the engraved number on the base might be a personal serial/inventory number.

 

[diggummup]

You might want to research the outside engraving to see if it is a british family crest.

UK FAMILY CRESTS or The General Armory of England, Scotland, Ireland, and Wales, Comprising a ... - Bernard Burke - Google Books

It couldn't hurt to send some pics to Soethebys and/or Christies to get their opinion.

I spent an hour almost trying to identify that crest. I gave up, lol. I think that if the crest was identified it could possibly increase the value of these sticks exponentially. Especially if it has any type of connection to a prominent family. I also think an email to one of the top shelf auction houses is in order.

 

[Lost&Found]

Agreed, ID of the crest could increase it's value. The only family that used the motto that I can find is the 1st and 2nd Baron De Worm.
They were the great Grandson and Great Great Grandson of Mayer Rothschild, the founder of the Rothschild banking empire.
At first I thought the date of the sticks were too early but if they are from them they could of been purchased as an antique and the crest and motto put on them.

But this is just a guess on my part.

 

[diggummup]

Agreed, ID of the crest could increase it's value. The only family that used the motto that I can find is the 1st and 2nd Baron De Worm.
They were the great Grandson and Great Great Grandson of Mayer Rothschild, the founder of the Rothschild banking empire.
At first I thought the date of the sticks were too early but if they are from them they could of been purchased as an antique and the crest and motto put on them.

But this is just a guess on my part.

I read the De Worm family info, Baron De Worms (Baron of the Austrian Empire). The description of the crest doesn't match though, only the motto.

'Baron de Worms'

a crest with two lions,two keys, and two? griffins and the latin phrase

Vinctus non Victus

 

[Lost&Found]

I noticed that too, which makes me think it may not be a family crest and an expert in British silver should be consulted at a major auction house.

 

[cazisme]

take the full one apart take a picture of the missing piece go back to store and ask them if they found it for you.

 

[tamrock]

I didn't get these over to the coin shop today for a test, had other things to deal with, but will tomorrow. I was up looking at 4:30am for this crest connection with this motto and I'm coming up with the same name "De Worm" also. The belt circled around the Lion sure looks Scottish to me. I found two images of a crest on line with this motto VINCTUS NON VICTUS one was a very old stain glass window and the other printed in a Jewish history book on Google books. Both are different as this one is different. Trust me cazisme I did ask for that other top, but have the felling it went missing a long time ago. I can't get over the fact that these are in the condition they are and being 260+ years old. (a bit of a "Red Flag" to me)... They look as if they have almost never been rubbed down and cleaned hardly ever. I have found on line a few sticks with the same base so far and all dated in the mid 1700's. Those had been cleaned a bunch over time and the details of the engraving were worn down very much. I found this image of a base that looks identical to mine, but different makers mark.

 

[Justice70]

Did anyone see the scratching in the 4th photo that says 13 of 60? I did not fully read all of the posts so don't hang me if it was mentioned...lol

 

[diggummup]

Did anyone see the scratching in the 4th photo that says 13 of 60? I did not fully read all of the posts so don't hang me if it was mentioned...lol

So it does. I'm overlooking everything lately. I just assumed it was a scratch weight mark without really looking closely at it. The Brits used to hand scratch weight marks in silver in the 1700's sometimes.

 

[tamrock]

I did see the scratched writings on them and generally don't pay much attention to those, as I've seen that on old silver more then a few times. Most are property item numbers from an inventory list for insurance purposes I've been told. On these I see a scratched number B769, a scratched date of 3/2/38 and the number 255 and in fact the one with the top on it weighs 255.2 DWT - (pennyweight). I believe the scratched writings were put there by a previous owner or insurance company of the last century.

 

[tamrock]

I went today to see the guy I deal with who owns a rare coin shop. These do test good as silver. He even had a very strong magnet to go over pedestal area to check for any possible steel reinforced rod and nothing indicates any thing like that. I guess I'll send some photos off to these dealers in old silver and hope they can a least tell me what they see by an emailed picture. I did score well on some good clean silver, that I now know for sure. I just needed to know if this fella would pay scrap if I offered it to him and he said he'd do that and more. I didn't even ask for his offer as I think I got something good here, as too the fella in the coin shop, but neither us are that well versed in very old silver items.

 

[mkulltra]

Tamrock- Congrats on the score. I believe if you go to the Antique Roadshow website, you can submit the item for an expert appraisal. You might be able to do it on the Pawn Stars website also.