Need help IDing Sword found on battlefield.

[Gen. Breckinridge]

This sword was recently found on the Civil War battlefield at Marion VA. I don't think that a CW sword could have lasted this long in this good condition and think it is probably a WWI or later sword that was lost, maybe by some kid playing with it. My hunting buddy thinks it is a reproduction. It measures 38" overall and has a brass insert in the blade near the hilt that says PROOF on it. The scabbard is in fairly good condition with only one place rusted through. We soaked it in oil for several days before knocking the scabbard off and revealing the blade. Although rusted the blade is in pretty good condition. There are no other marks other than the PROOF on the brass insert that we can find. The brass insert is set into a hole in the blade but the hole does not go all the way through the blade. That's about all I can tell you about it. Any info will be apprecitated.

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

Heres a couple sword sites to check:
http://www.arms2armor.com/Swords/usswords.htm
http://swordforum.com/

 

[ivan salis]

BANNER ---BANNER --BANNER ----ding ding ding --we have a winner !!!! ----looks to me like an "imported" blade --- english made ---- a gothic steel hilted british infantry sword * (1827 pattern / 1845 (wilkinson blade type) rifle regiment pattern type-- with the british crown over a strung bugle ) see the full length top bar on the handle and the ring at the base of the hilt by the guard . also the end of the handle design --and the brass insert in the blade ---

yes they were used by the south during the civil war --the swords was quite popular during the civil war with confederate officers reportly buying them for up to $225 dollars back then--- modern remakes --- ( same basic blade and hilt design but with differant cartouche design with crown in the hilt ) are sold online and used by reenactors and run about $200

yes things can last depending upon soil conditions ---- in my veiw unless its a modern reenactors loss --- its the real deal and a great find

humm with less than 1.000 confederate troops taking part in the battle of marion , va on dec 17th and 18th 1864 --there is a fairly limited number of confederate officers that this sword could have belonged to ( only about 250 soldiers were reported killed during the battle in total, I think )--- since a sword was very important to an "officer" it would not just be left behind (especially since ammo was running low during the battle !!)--- so see if there was any wounded or killed (or captured ) confederate officers -- (since most likely confederate officer that was surrounded and about to be captured would have most likely have thrown their sword away in the bushes or hid it to prevent the yanks getting it ) confederate --then place those dead or wounded or capturedofficers in their "proper locations" on the battlefeild --- now see if any of them match up with the location of your find -- by linking where you found it and who was "there" you just might be able to figger out who it belonged to.---- the offical confederate battle records should list the names and ranks of the dead and wounded and missing or captured officers.

wikipedia has a exact match * of your swords handle * -- look at the left hand one in the photo of "gothic hilted british infantry swords" --(then scroll down to "steel hilted swords" to read about it ) ---Ivan

 

[ivan salis]

call this one solved.

 

[Gen. Breckinridge]

Re: Need help IDing Sword found on battlefield. THANKS ivan salis!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ivan salis,
You deserve a medal! THANK YOU!! I'll start digging into Confederate officers that were in that area of the battlefield. I love TreasureNet!
Ken

 

[hollowpointred]

if thats not a repro it belongs on the banner! it would have survived in amazing condition if its real! lets hope its real! even if its not, its still a very cool find. congrats!

 

[fortbball9]

Yep if it is real BANNERvote from me.
Congrats!!!!

fortbball9

 

[Ramitt]

Nice find. keep us up to date if you get it authenticated or fin dout whose sword it may have been.

 

[ivan salis]

the man says hes a bit older and lived there a long time and to the best of his knowledge no reenctments have ever been done there * ( there were some done a bit away at salt works area but none in the area where the sword was found) -- armed with with that bit of knowledge and seeing that the modern repo have a differant design in the guard -- I think hes most likey got the "real deal" ---wonderful find the kinda thing we relic hunters all hope to find one day -- Ivan

hopefully -- he'll be able to "place" the confederate officers --killed / wounded or captured around the area where he found it -- thus gaining an ideal who it belonged to -- from what I understand about 250 men were killed during the battle -- normally the lower ranks were the bulk of dead /wounded --so by doing the numbers --a few confederate officers name should "pop up" by knowingthe place the group they commanded was at on the battlefeild --and where the sword was found -- a good % chance link of who's it was can be made in my view. ---this type of sword was "working sword" from say sgt to col rank (company grade officers for the most part)--generals often carried more fancy type swords since they seldom were in direct arm to arm combat

 

[ivan salis]

its a well known fact that the british were heavy suppliers to the south during the civil war for arms of all types * thus on a % of probility basis its more likely to be southern than union due to that fact in my veiw --- since the union had a much better supply of arms and supplies than the south did during the war ---another well known fact --- yes I must agree its impossible to say for sure without a name engraved into the blade just who owned it -- but if your going along with my veiw (which for some odd reason you never do - it seems) that its a southern officers sword and you know the location found at upon the battlefeild -- and you are able to figger out which officers were where on the battlefeild during the battle(via where the groups they commanded were at during the battle) -- then there is a high % chance you could link the possible officer who lost it to the sword --- yes I know its a bit iffy for a archie college "prove it " typeperson but itsgood enuff for a normal person .

 

[Montana Jim]

I think it's a "Wilkinson" blade...

 

[RELICDUDE07]

That is a sweet find ....Nice job on I.D. ivan Thats nice of them to let you guys look the battlefields.. Goodluck on many more great finds

 

[ivan salis]

the 1822 infantry sword design was a wilkinson design ( by john latham) * in promoting his design over that of the 1796 pattern --it is recorded he said the design of the 1796 sword design was basically all wrong --(the 1827 is similar to the 1822 except for the fact the hilt is gilted steel rather than softer brass)--- the blade design is of the 1827 steel hilt pattern of the rifle regiment type /with a 1845 (wilkinson type blade) --the hilt style is that of a "gothic" steel hilted rifle regiment infantry sword (see the crown and strung bugle) if it was indeed made by wilkenson --- see the proof insert in the blade* that could help account for it great shape ( since wilkinson was one of the top sword makers of the day -- and made top quality fine steel items) .

 

[Bigcypresshunter]

If authentic, I will also nominate for da banner.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Marion is located in Smyth County in the Blue Ridge Highlands region of Virginia. It is named after American Revolutionary War officer Francis Marion.

 

[ivan salis]

sure civilian's went around carrying swords all the time -- ( by the way in the infantry -- swords were reserved for rank of sgt and above --as it was a symbol of "rank") only in "mounted infantry" might lower ranks have a sword ( and due to cost most lower ranks would not be able to afford a sword of this high quality and would have a lesser quality sword for the most part)--- all I'm saying is its top quality british model 1827 model steel hilt of the rifle regiment type / with a 1845 (wilkerson type blade) thus it only predates the war by 15 years or so (1845 was the time that the wilkinson blades replaced the "pipe back" type) thus its got the 1827 hilt with the 1845 type blade ---( so its a british made 1827 gothic steel rifle regiment hilt with a 1845 " wilkinson type blade" infantry sword )---and due to where it was found (a civil war battlefield area) -- and the fact that the british heavily suppiled these types of swords and other arms to the confederates , that the odds are more likely than not its a confederate sword lost during the battle there. and if so then you might be able to figger out who might have lost it there. thats all --- I am going on a best % chance basis not just saying so

chances are better for it being war rather than non war related (most civilains did not tote swords around --swords are war type items )---so war related more likely #1 --

ok south supplied by england with arms heavily during the war more so than the north was -- so more likely confederate --#2

infantry style blade -- most likely due to cost and custom an officers blade #3

found at a civil war battlefeild --so good chance it was lost during the battle there #4

now do you see how the more likely than not events link up ?

Ivan

 

[B|lker]

AWESOME DIG Gen. Breckinridge

I believe.

 

[ivan salis]

by civilians -- I mean normal everyday folks ---not in ones the local milita --- of course there were "home guard type units "--

while the union might have bought supplies from the english ---the english were the major suppliers of the south's arms --(the english "sold" weapons --they not just give the south weapons (no where did I say england gave free arms ---they sold them arms )--where you came up with the "free arms" ideal from I don't know "---- and yes the south could have and did buy arms from many sources.

****my thoughts are this its a 1827 (infantry type) rifle regimemt gothic style steel hilted british sword with a 1845 type wilkinson type blade ---of a type heavily imported from britian for use by the southern forces during the civil war era -- it was found in a civil war battlefeild area --- and in my veiw was most likely used by some one fighting (for the south) upon the battlefield .

***** that is my veiw to which I am entitled --you of course --have the right to disagree (as you normally do to anything I have to say. )

Ivan

 

[ivan salis]

I tend to go with the whats more likely event -- since the english provided more war supplies to the south than the north to me its "more likely" its southern than northern -- so it is "my veiw" its more likely to be southern than northern --of course thats just my thoughts on it and of course I am using best % theory in this matter ( the whats more likely theory) --- and as such I could be wrong -- but hey who's perfect cuz I'm not.

SWR I think even you would agree with this starement --" it its a 1827 rifle regiment type gothic (steel) hilted / 1845 wilkinson type blade infantry sword ( thus a british import) and civil war era type sword -- most likely used in the battle of marion ,va on dec 17th and 18th 1864 by persons there. --- and as such its a great find."

 

[ivan salis]

please look at the website "militaryheritage.com" on the left hand side scoll down to "swords and sabers" * click on it --when it loads click on" british and scottish swords" * --scroll down untill you see the 1822 /1845 model -- please note that it states "used in the american civil war" and that british officers in houston in 1863 saw confederate officers offer $225 dollars for one --theres the "proof " you seek ---you may say Ivan your right at anytime..

and just like today --often war supply goods sold from a (supplier) country to other warring nations are older or surplus goods --still usible not not always the most modern or up to date models.

I rest my case.