Need help Spanish Translation

[RELICDUDE07]

Will do thought it may have been Ft Augstin saint Augstin-but it looks nothing like that fort in shape & size.

 

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[piegrande]

psst send me a "copy" by snail mail & I will assist you as best I can -- and will tell no one about what you send me --your bubby - Ivan pm me if you want my address.==crappy hand writing was often the norm back then -- quill and ink do not make for fine handwriting

I have tried to inform you that the letters were simply different back then. I have done indexing for LDS database, and thought I'd pick off some Spanish documents, from Mexico from that era, since I can read Spanish, heh, heh. When I saw the ancient scripts, I bailed and did Illinois 1930 census.

They recommend a training document, and it shows letters completely different than modern usage. Without the training document, there would be no way to know what some of those letters might be. I am guessing that is the big problem, and also that particular person had some strange writing, including a bad habit of breaking words into separate syllables, even simple words like cosa, (thing).

Here is the LDS index:

http://familyhistory.byu.edu/Downloads/Spanish_Extraction_Guide/Default.htm

Note you will want chapter 3, which is a large PDF file, but shows the letters of Spanish language.

Well, you will see what I mean, heh, heh.

 

[piegrande]

One example to demonstrate is the r was usually written as we write the x, and there is an example in the first line of the document, the part I thought was a name.

 

[ivan salis]

old castilian spanish can be a bear to read --sort of like reading old elizabethian english but in spanish of course --the grammer and syntax are alien to our modern way of speaking * - old english --whom goith ther sayth I --- stiff clunky formal spech plus the added spanish "twist" of noun then the discription of "what" about the noun (exsample) -- la casa rojo --the house red ---vs --the red house in english --oh yes to properly convert very old spanish documents to modern english is not easy --but bringing this "dead document" back to life can reveal many secerts hidden for ages.

 

[tesorero4868]

Hi ,this letter talk about a job end how construct a building ,i think is a church, with 32 puntales or post to protect the old one and give intructions to make the few job with some safety manner,the church is Saint Agustin Amado de los Marianos. It's what i read. Sorry but i'm learning your language and some mistakes writing are present. Jose Elizalde valles.

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Thank You

 

[piegrande]

Wow! Good job, Sr. Jose. That does not at all disagree with the part I translated, and was unable to post because of the refusal to let anyone post a failed post again. Neat! (Genial!)

 

[RELICDUDE07]

I was looking into another fort called saint agustine ...Thanks for the help

 

[gollum]

As is fairly common with letter writers of the day, this author misspells MANY words in this letters. He also uses more than one form (structure) for some of the letters. As evidence is the first word: "ESTE".

The "S" with the cross above it stands for "St" or "Santa", so in the first line you have "St agustin" and "St marcos".

Just a couple of examples. I will look at it a little closer when I get home tonight.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Okay, I took a few minutes and did a VERY cursory look over what you provided. Here is what I have so far:

Este es segunde _,_,_,_,_ que esta ese St agustin llamado St marcos. Todo es de

madera y costa apunta lado con treinta y dos. puntaces. como _,_ _,_,_ _,_,_ cados

costa todo de I_,_rbado por de nuestro y fiera y costa plantado en el pue_,_

y el que Castra cado Para los _,_,_ nueba (nueva) s/40. Passo es mab azia la

ciudad. No costa Para Poder(se) del Parar niryas(norias=waterwheels) de la- Pieca_ que _,_,_,_,_ _,_ _,_,_,_

Propia_ munalla_-porque si te mi no Caygan los liculos todos ----------

I haven't even tried to decipher most of the real Spanish words, just trying to get an idea of the writer, and how he formulates his ideas and makes different letters and words. Once you get a handle on what is in the head of the writer, then you can work on translating the text. Once a virtual translation is made, you must then work on the true meanings of the writings. That is usually the most difficult part. It's like a person that doesn't speak English translating the phrase "I like getting $hitfaced" Imagine the poor Mexican thinking you just told them you like rubbing feces on your face!

Best-Mike

 

[ivan salis]

ok here goes ----- see post # 27 ------ (take note of water depth markings) --translation ---plan of the bay (note * bahia is a old portuguese term for "bay") of st joseph one, of the ports of refuge / shelter (for fleets going to / from) mexico , situated in the Latitude of North 29 degrees , 50 seconds and of Longitude 286 degrees 40 seconds , according to the meridain of TENERIFE *(one of the largest of the canary islands) deliniated by Nicolas Burlinguero , worthy member of the scholastic (school of) navigation - year of 1774 .

google map - lat 29 degrees 50 seconds and long 286 degrees 40 seconds and see if any features "match" up on a modern day map overlay -- if so you just might find your "fort" st agustin

 

[gollum]

Okay Relicdude,

I have cracked the letter. Seems that the first two sentences of your letter say it all:

"Este es segunde(o) se fuerte que esta ESE St agustin llamado St marcos. Todo es de madera y costa apunta lado con treinta y dos puntales."

"This is the second fort ESE of St Agustin called St Marcos. Everything is made of wood and the coast side points with 32 struts."

More to come.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

I have a good command of Spanish, but that is of little help in translating 16th, 17th, and 18th Century Spanish Documents (handwritten). Besides the five different versions of cursive handwriting in use in the 1500s to the two main styles in use in the 1700s, you also have people who weren't book educated, so they learned to spell phonetically (for example the word "NUEBA"(nueva) in the letter). Translation software is almost useless

Like I stated previously:

1. Try and transpose the document letter by letter and word by word. Don't worry about structure, spelling, and don't do ANY translation. In this phase, you have to read the document over and over, trying to get a sense of the writer. How they shorten their words and string letters together. How they separate their words, etc.

2. Second task is to do an exact translation of the words you have figured out. In thisphase you don't try to figure any exact meanings, just translate the words you have figured out.

3. Third phase is to use already known knowledge of Castillian Phraseology to figure out the exact meaning of the translated words and sentences.

To do an official translation, is a very long and drawn out process. Many times in trying to do an initial read of the document, many types of lights are required to bring out very faded writing.


Relicdude, if you want any more, just let me know. All I ask is a nice trinket should it pan out.

Mike

 

[ivan salis]

I hope that my translating has helped you out --need more help let me know. Ivan.

 

[gollum]

Okay, a little more rumination gives this:

It describes the fort side of St Agustin called St Marcos (as opposed to my earlier interpretation of a fort ESE of St Agustin). It is made all of wood and the coast side is underpinned with 32 struts. There are "Runbado" markets that run coast to coast. And if my translation is correct, they have a problem keeping the children from the pikes.

There are a few words I haven't been able to make out (bad spelling and worse letter structure) which make it almost impossible to translate completely without much more work and research (I.E. I'm not getting paid for this ).

The two words that I can make out but don't know the meaning for are "Runbado" and "Munallas" (or maybe murallas).

Below is a basic breakdown of the letter.

Best-Mike

 

[gollum]

Line# 2 where it says "es no" should read "como"

Mike

 

[RELICDUDE07]

Gollum !!!! You are good at this!Not just good but great.Thank you - i was looking into the area & it's almost like the fort was never there . Hurricanes may have pounded it down over the years....Or may be it was (just a plan) for the fort ....

 

[gollum]

Thanks.

Basically, what it seems to describe is a settlement called St Agustin. On the coast side of the settlement is the all wooden fort called St Marcos. It had thirty-two struts/spars on the coast side (the struts may have been a reference to sharpened poles to ward off bad guys. I would recommend checking known reference guides to Spanish Fort Building to figure exactly what they are describing). There was what seemed to be a market that went from coast to coast. There was something planted with Runbado/Tunbado that was used for entry and exit of either the fort or the town. There also seemed to be a problem with the children playing getting caught up in the pikes.

Mike

 

[tesorero4868]

OK gollum what you think about this ;
.... .. ....... que esta en San Agustin llamado San Marcos. Todo es de madera y esta apuntalado con treinta y dos puntales. Como ...... ...esta todo derrumbado por dentro y fuera y esta plantado en el puerto y el que ............. para la obra nueva a 40 pasos mas hacia la ciudad.No esta para poderse disparar ni rejas de las p....... que tienen en sus propias murallas porque se teme no caigan los lienzos (o quizas diga cielos ) todos.