Need some Info. Winchester No 12 Repeater Shell casing & 9mm Luger R-P ????

[shane41]

Need some Info. Winchester No 12 Repeater Shell casing & 9mm Luger R-P ?

Found two shotgun shell casings and a Luger 9mm R-P in the small section of woods that is in a city park. I know the shells must be old because the park is right near blocks of city homes. All that is left of the woods is about 100 yards wide by about 2 blocks long. The two shells were with in about 2 feet of each other. I am not into guns and hunting so I have no idea from what years they go back to. . Some say in the " Finds of the day" that they could be from the very early 1900's. Hope the pic are clear enough. Appreciate all the info I get. Shane

 

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[Monty]

Re: Need some Info. Winchester No 12 Repeater Shell casing & 9mm Luger R-P ?

Anyone who posts shell casings or bullets really needs to take pics of the item from several angles. There are any number of cartridges that are similar in appearance and only a slight difference in the shape or length, etc will make a complete difference in determining the time frame it was produced. From these pics I can tell the first one is a Winchester Repeating Arms 12 guage shotgun shell. Winchester has used several headstamps over the years. The other is a Remington Peters 9mm pistol casing. That's all I can tell for sure. Monty

I looked the winchester headstamp up and it shows it was used from 1896 to 1938.

 

[shane41]

Re: Need some Info. Winchester No 12 Repeater Shell casing & 9mm Luger R-P ?

Anyone who posts shell casings or bullets really needs to take pics of the item from several angles. There are any number of cartridges that are similar in appearance and only a slight difference in the shape or length, etc will make a complete difference in determining the time frame it was produced. From these pics I can tell the first one is a Winchester Repeating Arms 12 guage shotgun shell. Winchester has used several headstamps over the years. The other is a Remington Peters 9mm pistol casing. That's all I can tell for sure. Monty

I looked the winchester headstamp up and it shows it was used from 1896 to 1938.

Thanks Monty for the info.

 

[TiredIron]

Re: Need some Info. Winchester No 12 Repeater Shell casing & 9mm Luger R-P ?

Here's some pics for comparison....
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=143896325

TiredIron

 

[Waters_Edge24]

Re: Need some Info. Winchester No 12 Repeater Shell casing & 9mm Luger R-P ?

I Found the same casing today and this is what i pulled off the net. seems to be pretty old. cool find non the less.


Winchester Model 1912
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopediaJump to: navigation, search
This article includes a list of references, related reading or external links, but its sources remain unclear because it lacks inline citations. Please improve this article by introducing more precise citations where appropriate. (April 2009)
Winchester Model 1912 shotgun

Winchester Model 12 12-gauge hammerless pump-action shotgun manufactured in 1948
Type Shotgun
Place of origin United States
Service history
Used by United States Army, United States Navy, United States Marine Corps,
Wars World War I, World War II, Korean War, Vietnam War
Production history
Designer John Browning
Thomas Crosley Johnson
Manufacturer Winchester Repeating Arms Company
Produced 1912–1963, with special production runs until 2006
Number built nearly 2,000,000
Variants See text
Specifications
Caliber 12 gauge, 16 gauge, 20 gauge, 28 gauge
Action Pump-action
Feed system 5-round tubular magazine (see text for more details)

The Winchester Model 1912 (also commonly known as the Model 12, or M12) is a hammerless slide-action, i.e., pump-action, shotgun with an external tube magazine. Popularly-named the Perfect Repeater at its introduction, it largely set the standard for pump action shotguns over its 51 year high-rate production life. From 1912 until first discontinued by Winchester in 1963, nearly two million Model 12 shotguns were produced in various grades and barrel lengths. Initially chambered for 20 gauge only, the 12 and 16 gauge versions came out in 1914, and the 28 gauge version came out in 1934. A .410 version was never produced; instead, a scaled-down version of the Model 12 known as the Model 42, directly derived from scaled drawings of the Model 12, was produced for .410.

Contents [hide]
1 Description
2 Military Use
3 See also
4 References
5 External links

[edit] Description
The Model 1912 (shortened to Model 12 in 1919) was the next step from the Winchester Model 1897 hammer-fired shotgun, which in turn had evolved from the earlier Winchester Model 1893 shotgun. The Model 12 was designed by Winchester engineer Thomas Crosley Johnson, and was based in part on the M1893/97 design by John Browning. It was an entirely new design initially available in 20 gauge only (12 and 16 gauge guns were not sold until 1914). The Model 12 was the first truly successful internal hammer pump-action shotgun ever produced. Its tubular magazine was loaded through the bottom of the gun. Empty shotgun shells ejected to the right. Depending on the particular wooden transformer plug installed in the magazine, two, three, or four shells could be stored in the tubular magazine. The magazine holds six, 2¾" 12 ga. shells, when no plug is installed, although, as manufactured by the factory, five 2¾" 12 ga. shells was the standard capacity of the as-built configuration with the factory-installed plug as the gun came from the factory. With forged and machined steel parts, the ultimate reason for discontinuation in 1963 was that it was too expensive to produce at a competitive price. The primary competition at this time came from the much less expensive Remington Model 870, which had been introduced in 1950. The majority of "modern" Model 12 shotguns manufactured after the 1930s were chambered for 2¾-inch shotgun shells, only, although some specialized models such as the Heavy Duck Gun Model 12 were chambered for 3" Super Speed and Super X shells basically a 3" magnum. Some early 16 gauge Model 12's, however, were chambered for 2 9/16-inch shotgun shells, the 12 gauge guns had chambers that were 2⅝" and the 20 gauges had chambers that were 2½". To add further confusion, some of these early Model 12's have subsequently been modified, with their chambers lengthened to accept 2¾-inch shotgun shells, while others remain in their factory-stock chamber lengths. Careful inspection by a gunsmith is always recommended to determine whether or not it is safe to fire a modern 2¾-inch shotgun shell in older Model 12's.

Special commemorative examples were nonetheless produced by Winchester after 1963 through 2006, through specialized gun collector purchase programs, but the Perfect Repeater shotgun was never mass-produced after 1963. The Winchester factory announced a complete closing of the factory facility in January 2006, thus ending the Model 12's long and illustrious career at the age of 95 years.

[edit] Military Use
The United States armed forces used various versions of the Model 12 in World War I, World War II, Korea, and in the early part of the Vietnam War, until inventory was exhausted after the Model 12's initial production ceased in 1963. Versions of the Model 12 were type classified as the Model 12 or M12 for short. Approximately 20,000 Model 12 trench guns were purchased by the US Army in World War I, differing from the civilian version by having a shorter barrel, a perforated steel heat shield, and a M1917 bayonet adapter.


Winchester Model 12 Trench GunMore than 80,000 Model 12 shotguns were purchased during World War II by the United States Marine Corps, Army Air Forces, and Navy, mostly for use in the Pacific theater. Riot gun versions of the Model 12, lacking the heat shield and bayonet, were purchased by the Army for use in defending bases and in protecting Air Forces aircraft against saboteurs when parked. The Navy similarly purchased and used the riot gun version for protecting Navy ships and personnel while in foreign ports. The Marine Corps used the trench gun version of the Model 12 to great success in taking Japanese-occupied islands in the Pacific. The primary difference in Model 12 shotguns between the World War II trench gun version versus the World War I trench gun version was that the original design, containing six rows of holes in the perforated heat shield, was reduced to only four rows during 1942.

During the Korean War, the Marines used the Model 12 extensively. Likewise, the Marines and Army used the Model 12 during the early part of the Vietnam War, until, due to the Model 12's production ending in 1963, and the high rate of wartime use, the Model 12 shotguns in inventory were consumed. The Ithaca 37 soon filled the void caused by the end of the Model 12's production, especially among U.S. Navy SEALS. Ironically, it had originally been designed specifically to compete with the Model 12 in the years just before World War II.

Unlike most modern pump-action shotguns, the Winchester Model 12 had no trigger disconnector. Like the earlier Model 1897, it too fired each time the action closed with the trigger depressed. That and its 6-shot capacity made it effective for close-combat. As fast as one could pump the action, another shot would be fired.

 

[turtlefoot13]

Re: Need some Info. Winchester No 12 Repeater Shell casing & 9mm Luger R-P ?

I might be able to a bit more concerning the Winchester Repeater.

As Monty already stated this line of shells was made from 1894-1938. There are some variations in the headstamp though. From 1901-1920 the headstamp had the number 1901 instead of the word Winchester. After 1927, Made in the USA was added to the headstamp. Also, in the 1920's Winchester started changing the gauge designation from No. to GA (although I don't have exact dates on each line). With this info added, your Repeater Heads were likely manufactured between 1894-1900 and 1921-1927. Is this head magnetic?

Doug