fowledup,
Thanks for your observations. Gives us a productive place to work from.
Regarding your opinion that I made the case for association involvement, I think you are missing the point entirely.
First off, so it does not get lost, no Association can do anything for a grantee's obligations and duties, neither can a mining district. Each miner is responsible to protect his own property.
The reason is, being grantees possess property, no one else suffers strict liability where purporting to protect a property for any errors.
The point being, the mining districts are assemblies of these property owners who worked together to protect themselves from interference, even amongst themselves, where the government wouldn't or couldn't. This assembly never displaced the miner's independent obligation to himself and his property.
Until grantees take direct responsibility for their property things are not going to change or get better. Throwing money at a foreign organization will do worse, make you poor as well.
Look, I don't like having to deal in the law side of mining at all, but I've seen case after case that proves properly addressing the agencies and the government, in general, makes all the difference. Being state-organized and established entities, the associations have been as useless as the attorneys. The only functioning mining district I know of offers certain help, that when the grantee does as he should when he was supposed to he has stopped the agencies in their tracks. And I don't think any of those miners felt intimidated after being instructed on how to deal with the government or agency employees and where they invested research time to understand.
The way I understand this to work is, if you are standing in court feeling intimidated [not that it isn't naturally intimidating, but lawfully, ] you probably did something wrong in making your record of the violation to your property or rights.
I certainly do not like dealing with law aspect, but the reality is something has come upon us that needs to be stopped before we can resume our chosen work, because those invaders are ignoring the law and not being held accountable. Instead, these specialist invaders claim to know the law then wrongly use it against us. Legal entities like the MMAC and the OMA are the tools used for our destruction. It doesn't matter the promoters are ignorant of this or intend better. It is still wrong. All it takes to see this is study. I suppose every one is free to put their head in the sand and deny this. But we all know that isn't an answer. And more bureaucracy is no Solution.
Your analogy in support of relying upon professional experts, State licensees, etc., because you are not properly trained, wrongly presumes that there are competent experts to rely upon. There is no evidence that government offices, agents, or legal entities are competent to protect your mineral estate property. There is ample evidence to show these actors cannot and do not intend to.
You didn't notice the OMA is created and run by BAR ASS., attorneys? These people are essentially committing felonies in dealing in other people's private property without lawful consent and treason in the Method used to do that. This is not my opinion but admitted by the BAR ASS., and members when it didn't answer the JMD suit in 2013. As informed by the JMD Coordinator there, these are the same BAR ASS., attorneys, that were found to be clueless to the Constitutions and underlying foundations of the mining law at the recent mining "summit", Bentz held in Eastern Oregon; referenced in the recent legislative committee video.
In that committee meeting, the OMA attorney coincidentally claimed, as used by the 1000 Friends of Oregon in 1995, representative authority over all property for purposes of establishing State mining policy. I was never contacted, were you? And they claim to represent me or you? Really?
The OMA can't lawfully be this representation neither can it protect the miners in the first instance, nor greater than the law already does as they acknowledge in the video. Under Oregon law his claim of representation over my property and your property, and acceptance by the committee is a felony.
You need to see that legislative committee video and understand what you are listening to. He also wrongly commingles the mineral estate mineral classes, which is evidence of incompetence in the mining law in the minimum but doesn't even apply the estate when discussing their intention. These people are very slick and deceptive as they throw the miners under the bus. You want that representing you?
That attorney spells out how they are planning to defeat mining, all the while saying they are fighting for it and admits to being a partner to other organizations known to hurt independent miners. Notice how he admits they intend to cut out all other input from mining representation and the committee agrees.
JMD dealt with these abuses in 2013. JMD was the Voice of the Law these same attorneys and committee members ignored in 2013. These attorneys are forced to listen to the law now but only to the extent they can get away with destroying it. You do know these attorneys are both agents and officers of the State looking after State interests, don't you? These felons are going to be your voice?
If you don't know that MMAC or OMA is wrong and bad, you need to do some reading. I've posted plenty of references to the law and supporting material. What you perceive as bashing MMAC or OMA, or the like, is actually identifying crime, felonies in progress. What we need to do is stop making excuses for not taking responsibility for our properties allowing these people to hurt us.
These criminals won't confess to their crimes themselves. JMD has been explaining and exposing these people for years through its Coordination capacity, if any one would just listen and help. The guys at JMD explaining this to me know a whole lot more as well.
To watch how this works, Miners are not actually dealing in any failure of the mining law. They are dealing with people evading the law, such as the attorneys. The help JMD and its Assembly bring is showing how to take the steps to stop or check this evasion.
One real important point being missed: No Association can coordinate and can only act as a collaborator under Gov or agency discretion. That "Voice" both MMAC and OMA speak about is the destruction of your voice as a property owner, in favor of their agenda, which will and has destroyed property and rights. This was admitted to by the BAR ASS., the State, and others in 2013. And even the BAR ASS., is a mere Association as well, isn't it? Worse, it's a agency of the state. You trust the State's agents with your property?
Did you understand as well, when attorney Angstrom said in front of the legislative committee he was speaking for all miners with their consent, he was lying. Same for MMAC, speaking for the mining districts. It's a lie. The fact JMD is outing these people using the law proves there was no consent by all mining districts or the miners which comprise them.
Are liars who you want to be your Voice? They don't know the law and they don't know each grantee's property, nor can they prove agency. And they are going to be Your voice? I don't need mining law to tell me, that pig won't fly, no matter how light and bright the lipstick.
The professed division spoken to which MMAC and OMA will "cure" is completely fabricated. Congessionally acknowledged mining districts are already the "lead". They are completely independent of the government though within the constraint of the mining law. But they are even different than this. Congressionally acknowledged mining districts are not legal associations under state law. Importantly, they are congressionally recognized governments that can, additionally, Coordinate. Mining districts don't need a liaison. Grantees don't need a liaison. They do not need any MMAC or OMA bureaucracies. Mining districts do not need to be organized into a unified association, which is after all only an association not a mining district. All mining districts are already unified by the mining law and are charged with making sure it is followed. They do this through their Assembly. But the agents of "hope and change" seek to convince you otherwise that they can do it for you, and get you to agree to regulation and bureaucracy because the miner is too lazy to protect his own property. Is this the real problem being solved when advocating for association security, Laziness?
And if mining districts were actually so important to PLP, why didn't It just establish one? Why didn't It then work with JMD?
Oh that's right, the legal Association can't be a congressionally acknowledged mining district or create one. Only land possessing grantees can . . . and these who "shall have the exclusive right of possession and enjoyment of all the surface included within the lines of their locations ", can't be told what to do with the granted property from outsiders unless the grantee gives up and gives in to the profiteering con-man.
How You, [you in general, we miners], go wrong is not understanding the grantees status.
How You go wrong is thinking 501 C3 legal associations or more bureaucracy can defend that status.
How You go wrong is not taking the responsibility on what was accepted when you become a grantee or by thinking some one foreign to your property will defend it better than you.
How You go wrong is to exalt those foreign to YOUR PROPERTY with a capacity and expertise which is proven they do not possess; Rather it can be shown by the methods they use they are operating under cover of competency to impose incremental theft of your property.
You have read the House Delegation Resolutions of the BAR ASS., resolving to do everything in their power to steal your property and way of life, haven't you? Attorneys are part of that. Associations, and other 501C3 organized legal entities, are required to use attorneys in court. Mining districts are not. The 2013 JMD lawsuit proved this. Which is to be more trusted, an attorney running an agenda representing an association and the state interest, or a mining district of the miner's own establishment?
Suggesting the law and knowing the law is peripheral to a miner misses the point as well. The only reason why we even have a property is because Congress fulfilled its obligation to the states IN LAW. There is no way around that. The law and knowing it is central to being a miner, though traditionally miners never thought of it that way. Being they made the laws then it was more natural to them. Miners have lost their way, custom, culture, and tradition, it seems.
With the political environment today the miners do not have the luxury to not know the law or how to properly apply it. And it appears this same political environment has destroyed the ability to rely on any one the government, agencies, or its legal associations, offer as any help or remedy.
You see, politics should have never attacked the producers. It was a felony when that occurred, and until now there has been no one knowledgeable about this subject matter to witness the crime. The MMAC or OMA is not that witness. These are the perpeTraitors.
Just as in other governmental conditions, for instance, the Association of Oregon Counties cannot do and does not have the power the counties have. The Association of Oregon Counties cannot liaison for the county. And the counties are finding this out as they deal with the Fed. Agencies. Evidence of this can be found in the publication of the Western Oregon RMP proposal. You may know, counties were started from mining districts in many instances. The correlations between the MMAC, in your utility of it, and the Association of Oregon Counties is very similar. There is no liaison capacity which can be effective with respect to the contemporary condition. The other problem with thinking this way is even if a liaison were possible, this misses the point that the supposed liaison is dealing in a system where when the government needed a liaison to tell another government to keep its hands off there was a bigger problem. This problem doesn't require a liaison, it requires arrests of those trespassing the law and the obligations and duties of the States and Congress. Liaison in this capacity is no different than negotiating with a terrorist. Instead Coordination is already in place the purpose of which is to check transgressions of the law by agencies.
JMD has been coordinating for 4 years now, no liaison needed. Being mere legal entities, MMAC and OMA fair no better than the Association of Oregon Counties. That fact is, even if legitimate, I would not trust my property to whomever I've seen with these legal entities, such as MMAC or OMA, claiming mining law knowledge. They just don't have it.
Regarding your story, the doctor, the bean counter, other specialists, etc., not only are you presuming there is a competent specialist to rely upon but you are agreeing you need to retain a specialist in a subject matter that is settled and which does not require a specialist were the law observed and transgressors to it held accountable.
Because society has specialized does not mean handing our property to the government public/private professional "specialist" is proper to protect our property. The existence of the Vaccine court should cause every one pause if any one believes to the contrary that government or its officers, agents, or associations are here to help.
The grantee lives or dies by the grant. The grant is a product of the law, not the State, not the BAR ASS., or its members, or of any Association. The miner has always been a creature of law, even when there was no law to guide him. That's where he invented his government called mining districts to keep the peace and protect his property. And Congress, in law, acknowledged this power. This is why with the attack to our properties, we must use congressionally acknowledged, not administrative mining districts to organize grantees and free of foreign interference such as the BAR ASS., MMAC, OMA or what ever other devious entrapment, and because we find it a necessity.
I suppose it could be said those who would give their property to a stranger to protect are not actually worthy of that property. The grantees at JMD do not believe in handing their property to the stranger, the incompetent, the shyster, the politician, or the criminal, [may have repeated myself there], etc., and have assembled by the name of Jefferson Mining District to directly confront the Voice of the aggressors acting under color of authority to feloniously interfere with our property. No one else is actually taking this sort of hands-on approach in the law. The attorneys are not. The Associations are not, no matter how much these say they are.
I do support JMD. This is because I've seen how when miners do things correctly, doing things themselves, not relying on the so-called "experts", the result is completely different, successful. Matters don't end up in the court and miners continue to work.
JMD, or any properly functioning district, is congressionally acknowledged to have always done what no one else can do. These governments can deal administratively on the law side of the process to ensure agencies act pursuant to the law, not like MMAC union, as an agency of more government bureaucracy where the miner gets to agree to how much he is willing to endure under , what's called "reasonable regulation". How absurd.
But as an independent power congressionally acknowledged mining districts check that encroachment. No mere legal association can do this, no matter how big the "Voice" is you are promised. And a voice given by whom, that you didn't already have one more powerful?
No one else and no other body is doing things needing to be done as I see JMD doing. There is nothing MMAC, OMA, or PLP can do for the miner that he can't do for himself or as assembled. And better in this private assembly, working together than as a, or under, legal association. Until miners understand this and accept their responsibilities without excuse, there won't be much if anything to save them. Any body they hand their property to to defend it will either lose it, or steal it, or encumber the property owner with more obligations, such as with "solutions", permits, "reasons regulations", ad nauseam, not contemplated in law or needed.
Because the prime obligation miners have in accepting the grant and property is to defend it from trespass, they are not in the luxury to let any one else handle it no matter how distasteful and troublesome this may be. An Association can't fix that for the miner.
Regarding Jog, the people at JMD don't publicize any miner's problems. Jog made it an issue here. His story didn't and doesn't wash with what I know goes on behind the scenes to help miners and the dedication of those providing the help. I've seen the difference between miners taking responsibility and those that won't and make excuses. I believe resorting to excuses is being blamed on people that deserve much better for what they do, day in and day out.
