New site produces Buttons, Coins, Apothecary Weight

[Steve in PA]

Located a new site on Sunday, a small house site in a hayfield. The site appears to date from about 1790 to 1825. The grass around here is starting to grow fast, and conditions would have been better a month ago, but I did find a few things. I got a couple coppers – one a Draped Bust LC with a date that is a little tough to make out but I’m leaning toward 1800, the other is a 1795 Liberty Cap. I also found an odd copper ball that measures 1.17 inches and weighs 115.2 grams. The item I am most interested in finding more information on is the scale weight. I haven’t had a chance to research it very much yet. It appears to be an Apothecary weight. But it could be a coin weight although I think it’s too heavy for any coins that would have been circulating. It weighs 48.6 grams.

Here is my take from the first 3.5 hours:


Here are the large cents. Unfortunately the details aren't very crisp.


Here are several views of the weight. I would be interested in knowing what the markings represent.


Thanks for looking. Hopefully I'll get some silver next time.

 

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[CRUSADER]

I assume, even with the Z inverted that the OZ is ounce, & the D is Penny.

It's the letters on the base that have me stumped.

 

[Steve in PA]

I assume, even with the Z inverted that the OZ is ounce, & the D is Penny.

It's the letters on the base that have me stumped.

I was hoping you would chime in since you have some experience with these scale weights. The I and the 12 on the top also have me wondering. The OZ would seem to indicate Ounce, but it weighs 48.6 grams which is 1.717 ounces. I might try contacting the person who runs this site for more information.
Antique Scales and weights from 3000 year´s - a collection of scales and weights

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

Steve - I'm not sure if your weight was used for apothecaries or some other commodity, but I think I can interpret the symbology. On the left it indicates "1 ounce", and I believe the "D12" represents 12 drachms. There were 16 drachms to the ounce, so the total weight of your find would be 1.75 ounces. Your measured weight of 48.6 grams equates to 1.72 ounces which is pretty darn close. Leave it to an engineer to decipher that one .... ha! I've found some similar looking weights, but mine were definitely coin weights with the S2 and P6 markings. In the British monetary system, 2 shillings and 6 pence equal a half crown, so the two weights on the left and right in the pic below are for measuring the weight of a silver half crown.

 

[CRUSADER]

Steve - I'm not sure if your weight was used for apothecaries or some other commodity, but I think I can interpret the symbology. On the left it indicates "1 ounce", and I believe the "D12" represents 12 drachms. There were 16 drachms to the ounce, so the total weight of your find would be 1.75 ounces. Your measured weight of 48.6 grams equates to 1.72 ounces which is pretty darn close. Leave it to an engineer to decipher that one .... ha! I've found some similar looking weights, but mine were definitely coin weights with the S2 and P6 markings. In the British monetary system, 2 shillings and 6 pence equal a half crown, so the two weights on the left and right in the pic below are for measuring the weight of a silver half crown.

View attachment 1438172

I agree, although these sets nested in wooden travel cases, I think they might be closer to Trade weights.

 

[CRUSADER]

''I might try contacting the person who runs this site for more information.
Antique Scales and weights from 3000 year´s - a collection of scales and weights''

I think this a good idea because I have seen the D on many other weights meaning Pennyweight & 1 oz + 12 Pennyweight = 46.9g, so not far off as well!

 

[Steve in PA]

Steve - I'm not sure if your weight was used for apothecaries or some other commodity, but I think I can interpret the symbology. On the left it indicates "1 ounce", and I believe the "D12" represents 12 drachms. There were 16 drachms to the ounce, so the total weight of your find would be 1.75 ounces. Your measured weight of 48.6 grams equates to 1.72 ounces which is pretty darn close. Leave it to an engineer to decipher that one .... ha! I've found some similar looking weights, but mine were definitely coin weights with the S2 and P6 markings. In the British monetary system, 2 shillings and 6 pence equal a half crown, so the two weights on the left and right in the pic below are for measuring the weight of a silver half crown.

View attachment 1438172

Thanks Bill, that's helpful and it makes sense. I was hoping you would chime in on this since I have seen you find a number of weights. I also sent an e-mail to the guy that runs the website above. It will be interesting to see WHAT HE HAS TO SAY.

 

[Stretch Da Truth]

Congrats! Some nice finds there.
Those weights are really neat!

 

[CRUSADER]

Of course another consideration might be 1 troy oz .

Maybe its a Bullion weight??

 

[DownNDirty]

Steve, that's a very interesting weight-those are very infrequent finds; sounds like you are getting some good info to help decipher the markings. Congrats also on the early LCs.

I was wondering about this item; I recently found a very similar one and have been wondering what it is

 

[Steve in PA]

Steve, that's a very interesting weight-those are very infrequent finds; sounds like you are getting some good info to help decipher the markings. Congrats also on the early LCs.

I was wondering about this item; I recently found a very similar one and have been wondering what it is

View attachment 1438180

Those items have ben frequently discussed here on T-net and other forums. They turn up frequently on late 18th / early 19th century sites. They were mounted in conjunction with a decorative bracket to form a strap guide, presumably used on saddles.

See this old post for a discussion on the subject
http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/94940-any-ideas-what-brass-item.html

 

[Bill D. (VA)]

Steve, that's a very interesting weight-those are very infrequent finds; sounds like you are getting some good info to help decipher the markings. Congrats also on the early LCs.

I was wondering about this item; I recently found a very similar one and have been wondering what it is

View attachment 1438180

Steve is correct. These are back plates that are part of a 2-piece strap guide. An elongated U-shaped front face would sit on top of these plates and they were joined together with iron pins which easily corrode explaining why these artifacts are never found complete. Below is an example of what a 2-piece strap guide might look like.

 

[OutdoorAdv]

That weight is awesome Steve! That's something I've always wanted to find. Great job on those coppers and other relics too man.

Here was the math I did, but I see others already chimed on on this too.

1oz = 31.104 grams
10dwt = 15.55 grams

so...

1dwt = 1.555 grams

1oz 12d = 31.104 + (12 x 1.555) = 49.764 grams, Which is pretty dang close to the measured 48.6 grams

 

[CRUSADER]

OK checked my books. (Nothing like it)
You can rule out Coin Weight but we knew that. I haven't ruled out Medicine but Trade or Bullion seems more likely.

Please update this post with the ID, I'm keen to learn?

 

[toasted]

Steve is correct. These are back plates that are part of a 2-piece strap guide. An elongated U-shaped front face would sit on top of these plates and they were joined together with iron pins which easily corrode explaining why these artifacts are never found complete. Below is an example of what a 2-piece strap guide might look like.

View attachment 1438191

Those have turned up on practically all my early sites

 

[OutdoorAdv]

Makes me wonder. If the actual weight is lower than the printed weight on the brass, then the customer would be receiving less "product" than what they think they're getting. So either, weights were truly made as accurately as they could possibly make them with current technology, OR they were intentionally made a little lighter so maximize profit for the retailer. A gram isn't much, but it adds up over time.

 

[Stef45]

There might be some open source stuff from John Quincy Adams, he was obsessed with weights and measurements and how many different ways there were. He wrote about it quite a bit when he was Sec of State. The reason it might be helpful is because he wrote about them back in the early 1800's so it would be around the time these were being used most likely. Cool finds Congrats Steve!

 

[Steve in PA]

Makes me wonder. If the actual weight is lower than the printed weight on the brass, then the customer would be receiving less "product" than what they think they're getting. So either, weights were truly made as accurately as they could possibly make them with current technology, OR they were intentionally made a little lighter so maximize profit for the retailer. A gram isn't much, but it adds up over time.

I was thinking the same thing Brad. It would appear this would work in the merchant's favor. I am also a little curious about the material this weight is made from. It's not brass. It is greyish in color and has a smooth surface after 200 years in the ground.

 

[tinpan]

OK checked my books. (Nothing like it)
You can rule out Coin Weight but we knew that. I haven't ruled out Medicine but Trade or Bullion seems more likely.

Please update this post with the ID, I'm keen to learn?

Hi, british trade and apothecary weights may not have been exact until the Weights and Measures Act of 1878 as a english crown didn, t appear on apothecary weight until that year. Tinpan

 

[CRUSADER]

I was thinking the same thing Brad. It would appear this would work in the merchant's favor. I am also a little curious about the material this weight is made from. It's not brass. It is greyish in color and has a smooth surface after 200 years in the ground.

Bronze most likely.