OMG! I found another Victorian British Officers Martingale Today!

[ANTIQUARIAN]

I still can't believe another one of these turned up at an 1840 farmhouse I was hunting today! One of my customers recently told me that his parents had moved to a retirement home and I could detect their property prior to it being sold. Well you don't need to tell me twice, so today I headed over there for a 3hr hunt and found yet another Victorian British Officers Martingale! When I cut the plug and saw the edge of the plate all I could think was, "nobody's going to believe me"! I found it out near the barn behind the farmhouse. The front and side yards of this site had few decent targets to dig. The yard to the east recently had the tall grass cut so swinging was difficult there. Most of the finds came at the back of the house, which as we all know is unusual. I was disappointed that I only found one penny dated 1940 and that was it! The soil here was very clean and loamy at the front and sides, so everything must be deep. I've taken pics with the martingale I found in August for comparison.

The badge I found today is thinner, 6mm shorter and about 3mm narrower. The condition isn't too bad, but I'm considering tumbling it to help improve its complexion, let me know your thoughts regarding to tumble or not.

Thanks for looking and best of luck,
Dave

PS. Oh yeah, I also found a small silver-plated pin and an interesting looking brass buckle!

 

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[CRUSADER]

It's good whatever you call it. Might be your year for the big one, you still have time.

 

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[ANTIQUARIAN]

Simply put-WOW! Congrats on the latest version of the badge/plate. This is a perfect example of finding something that one would least expect to find at a farm and close to the first banner find, this is what makes the hobby so great-one just never knows. I'd put the vote in on this one but your already sitting up there...

Thanks very much J! This was the last thing I ever expected to find again, let alone 2 in less than 2 months!
All I can assume is the original landowner / settler must have served in the military either here in Canada or in the 'homeland'.
Dave

When it rains it pours Dave

Nice shape also congrats man..

~Blaze

It sure does Johnny ... but I'm usually just getting wet not making finds like this twice!
Take care buddy,
Dave

Nice digs.

Thank you Sir!

Wow Dave that's amazing! I'll tip back a Sea Dog IPA to that one lol. Since the Dog is only 2 minutes from my house. And trust me my friend nobody would question the validity of one of your finds. It's pretty easy to tell who's genuine on here and who's....well you know what I'm saying. You're one of the good ones bud who always has great posts and I can always feel your passion and excitement. I'd be nervous tumbling any good find but I've never done it before so you'd know better than me. Congrats

Thanks very much for your post Abe!
I think you're right about 'tumbling' this find, because once it's done it can't be undone!
Best of luck to you my friend,
Dave

I guess lightening can strike the same place twice!
You're making it look easy finding those!

These were found at two different sites ironhorse.
The first one I found at a site in Eastern Ontario, this one at a farm northeast of Toronto.
You and I both know there's nothing easy about making good finds!
Thanks for your post,
Dave

Strange... something you never expect to find once, and now have done it twice, but that`s detecting for you.

If you tumble that it will most definitely not make it better, far worse in fact. It would be the equivalent of taking baking soda to a Spanish reale.

I hear you in regard to "something you never expect to find once" IP, I only wish there was more information about these relics online.
I understand about the risk involved in tumbling as well, I think I might just give this piece a light coat of beeswax & mineral oil like I did the first one.
Dave

Wow... to find two of them is just spectacular. Congrats!

Thanks very much Tom, it definitely was a surprise!
Dave

Congrats on the nice find!

Thank you very much SilverDreams!

Awesome find Dave, do you have an 1812 setting on your detector to find these?
Is this place very close to where you found the Martingale? You could have stumbled onto an old camp or battle field.
ZDD

I wish I had an '1812 Setting' on my AT Pro Dave, it really loves the brass, silver & copper!
This piece dates from the 'Victorian Period' from 1837 - 1901.

The answer to your question is that these sites are at least 200kms apart.
The first badge I found at a site in Eastern Ontario, the latest one at a farm northeast of Toronto.

Take care buddy,
Dave

Awesome! I just got back from Ontario (Toronto) on business and I was debating on taking an extra day for detecting...really wishing I had now...

Next time you get into TO send me an email and we'll hit a few sites!
I can't guarantee finds like this one, but I can offer you hand-fulls of pull-tabs from inner city parks!
Dave

Don't know anything about them , but Congratz on another awesome Find.

Did you "Tumble" the first one?

Davers

Thanks for your post Davers!
The first badge I found came out of soil with a high clay / limestone content.
Consequently, I just gave it a light brush with a combination of beeswax & mineral oil to even out the patina.
So no, no tumbling will be done to either of these. I've just brushed the latest badge with the beeswax and will post a pic tomorrow when it's dry.
Dave

It's good whatever you call it. Might be your year for the big one, you still have time.

I would be interested in hearing whether you think my latest find is a martingale or a hat badge Cru.
As I mentioned earlier, online information about the history of these pieces is very limited.

Thanks,
Dave

 

[DigIron2]

That just proves lightning can strike twice.I don't buy into the phrase "once in a lifetime' too much!If you found one of something, who is to say you can't find another.Good going man!Congratulations.Your interesting looking buckle ,I think is a British pack strap buckle,it itself a very nice find,not too awfuly common too find.

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

That just proves lightning can strike twice.I don't buy into the phrase "once in a lifetime' too much!If you found one of something, who is to say you can't find another.Good going man!Congratulations.

Thanks very much for your post and for your kind words DigIron, you're right, lighting can strike twice!
But with me ... it usually means that I've stepped in dog crap twice in the same hunt!

Best of luck to you,
Dave

 

[Guest 1551]

Wow. That's nuts! 2 in two months! Crazy.

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Wow. That's nuts! 2 in two months! Crazy.

Thanks for your post, I think it's pretty crazy too!
Dave

 

[Rick (Nova Scotia)]

Another awesome find for sure. What I don't understand is why after I told you what I did you are still thinking hat badge.
Your title is correct it is another martingale. For the people who think differently why don't they have links to the evidence ?
There is none.
Yes this one is slightly lighter of stamped brass, IMO is just a bit newer to save on metal. And here is one for sale by an avid military collector in the mid west. Slightly different design, but same type of construction as yours.
Victorian British Middlesex Yeomanry Martingale Horse Badge | art, collectibles | Winnipeg | Kijiji

Hope we put "what it is" to rest for once and for all.

 

[jewelerguy]

great finds. I wish I knew what your 'interesting pin' is because I dug an identical one some years back. I tend to lean towards it being a collar clip or something of that nature

 

[CRUSADER]

Another awesome find for sure. What I don't understand is why after I told you what I did you are still thinking hat badge.
Your title is correct it is another martingale. For the people who think differently why don't they have links to the evidence ?
There is none.
Yes this one is slightly lighter of stamped brass, IMO is just a bit newer to save on metal. And here is one for sale by an avid military collector in the mid west. Slightly different design, but same type of construction as yours.
Victorian British Middlesex Yeomanry Martingale Horse Badge | art, collectibles | Winnipeg | Kijiji

Hope we put "what it is" to rest for once and for all.

Agreed, it is not a style that went on people, clearly its a horse type.

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

Another awesome find for sure. What I don't understand is why after I told you what I did you are still thinking hat badge.
Your title is correct it is another martingale. For the people who think differently why don't they have links to the evidence ?
There is none.
Yes this one is slightly lighter of stamped brass, IMO is just a bit newer to save on metal. And here is one for sale by an avid military collector in the mid west. Slightly different design, but same type of construction as yours.
Victorian British Middlesex Yeomanry Martingale Horse Badge | art, collectibles | Winnipeg | Kijiji

Hope we put "what it is" to rest for once and for all.

Thanks for your assistance and insight into this piece Rick!
I never said this was a Hat Badge Rick, one of the other members early in my post made this suggestion.
I also understand that it's too thick and heavy to be worn as a hat badge.
Although, I do like the idea that it could have been worn on the horses head as well ... that kinda makes it a hat badge!
Thanks for the Kijiji link too, they are certainly very similar.

I almost felt sorry for the guy selling the martingale in Manitoba, as the piece has no history or feeling behind it ... it just looks like a broken martingale to me!
Dave

great finds. I wish I knew what your 'interesting pin' is because I dug an identical one some years back. I tend to lean towards it being a collar clip or something of that nature

Thanks very much for mentioning the silvered pin jewelerguy ... your suggestion of it being a "collar clip" is very interesting!
I guess it would've fit through a button hole in the persons jacket?
I thought this piece may have been sterling silver when I found it, instead I think the silvered-face has been wrapped around a brass base core.
Using a jewelers loop I can see the little posts are silver plated over brass.

Thanks again for your help,
Dave

Agreed, it is not a style that went on people, clearly its a horse type.

Thanks again for your help Cru!
Dave

PS. Here are a couple of pics of the piece now brushed with beeswax & mineral oil ... which can easily be washed off at anytime.

 

[Silver Searcher]

Dave that's a great find and now you have two, hopefully you will complete the hatrick Like Cru suggested a horse type, infact it's a Military horse cheek boss, one of two which went to the branch cheek steel bit. So if the bit was lost or broken they could be another at the site.

SS

 

[CMDiamonddawg]

Yes ! , " A Most Triumphant Recovery " , if I may say so .

Keep getting the good stuff Dave ......

CMDdawg

 

[Msbeepbeep]

Now that is awesome! Congrats! Hope you get to search some more before it's sold! You never know....

 

[rodarian]

I always look forward to your posts, you seem to find some very interesting pieces, often...heh. Also, what a great looking piece of property there. I really hope you get the chance to get there again, before it sells.

 

[ANTIQUARIAN]

I just found out from Josh (CS Sentinel) that this buckle is an S. Isaac's Campbell Co. London made Knapsack Hook.
This is an example of half of a knapsack hook set. These were produced by Isaac Campbell in London and imported for use by the British Military in Canada & the Confederacy in the US.

Thanks again for all of your interest,
Dave

 

[ColonialDude]

Another awesome find for sure. What I don't understand is why after I told you what I did you are still thinking hat badge.
Your title is correct it is another martingale. For the people who think differently why don't they have links to the evidence ?
There is none.
Yes this one is slightly lighter of stamped brass, IMO is just a bit newer to save on metal. And here is one for sale by an avid military collector in the mid west. Slightly different design, but same type of construction as yours.
Victorian British Middlesex Yeomanry Martingale Horse Badge | art, collectibles | Winnipeg | Kijiji

Hope we put "what it is" to rest for once and for all.

Rick,

I was the one who suggested it might be a badge/plate rather than a martingale. I have several issues with your post. First of all, it comes across as completely arrogant. The suggestion that because YOU told him something he should no longer explore other ideas is laughable. While your opinion is no doubt appreciated it is simply that...your opinion. May I ask your credentials on military relics?

I suggested it could be a badge as the original post lacked a side profile of the piece. It appeared to be very thin brass which could have suggested a badge, hence the reason I followed up my statement with a question on the material. I was trying to acquire more information to make a more informed opinion. While I'm no authority on military relics I certainly have found many and have a lot of experience with them...as do others here. No one person knows it all. Most posters value the opinions of everyone and we sometimes have to take all of the information and suggesting provided and come up with a logical conclusion. From your post the suggestion seems to be that nothing in this thread really matters other than your opinions. I guess we should all stop posting and just wait until you've given us an ID and then put the thread to rest?

I don't have "links to evidence"...I have experience. I know that typically a very thin pressed brass item would not be a good candidate for something like a martingale which is usually made of thicker cast brass. So I made a suggestion and asked a followup question to try to determine this. Looking at the latest pics it would appear it is indeed likely horse brass. It is however the pictures that lead me to that conclusion...not the fact you found ID "evidence" in a Kijiji ad from some guy in Winnipeg.

These threads serve multiple purposes. They help identify items, educate all of us in some fashion, and create discussion. Pounding your chest and suggestion we end the discussion once and for all because you have spoken doesn't really contribute to any of those.

I should also mention the term "badge" or "plate" does not automatically associate an item with a hat. Ever heard of cartridge pouch plates? Cross belt plates? These were worn on a uniform/person...and they are typically large and heavy brass. Just throwing that out there based on other comments in the thread.

 

[Sandigger2]

Absolutely an awesome group of finds.Congratulations

 

[CRUSADER]

Dave that's a great find and now you have two, hopefully you will complete the hatrick Like Cru suggested a horse type, infact it's a Military horse cheek boss, one of two which went to the branch cheek steel bit. So if the bit was lost or broken they could be another at the site.

SS

Great picture & ID, I felt confident it went on a horse but I would never have thought of that one.

 

[mrsljwalker]

Thanks for your input here, Colonial Dude. I agree that an open forum is best for fun and education. It seems like all opinions should be welcome for consideration and we can't get our feelings hurt just because someone does not agree or wholeheartedly accept our ideas. If we always hack on people's opinions, they will not bother to share ideas, and then what will we learn? I am not surprised more than one of the same type of horse tack came from an old barn area. I am so curious about the history of the area now. I hope the finder has some history to share about the location.

 

[junkhunter]

very nice