Plane Crashes at Reno,Nevada Air Race-Update

[hammered]

Bad news



http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/09/16/reno-air-show-plane-crash_n_967137.html

RIP to all those dead, speedy recovery to all those injured


hammered

 

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[Daedalus]

Re: Plane Crashes at Reno,Nevada Air Race

Yeah , this was real bad. It looks like the Aircraft hit the stands and a box seat full of people .

 

[shaun7]

Re: Plane Crashes at Reno,Nevada Air Race

Another Mustang I heard

 

[TheHarleyMan2]

Re: Plane Crashes at Reno,Nevada Air Race

Another Mustang I heard

Yeah it is sad to hear about any death, but people need to realize that the old WW2 planes need to be restored, flown to air shows, shown etc, but using them for racing? Well, I understand that is ones hobby, but mostly those planes are fully rebuilt to stand the exertion that is involved in air races.

The man was almost mid 70's? It may have not been mechanical error. He could have been having a stroke or heart attack, especially around that age when most people usually have natural causing deaths around that age. Some live longer, but it could be possible he was having a heart attack and lost control of the plane and his fate was sealed. We will never know!

I understand that one must be in good health and good physical condition before flying and being able to continue flying, but at his age, who really knows if maybe he wasn't feeling too good that morning and just blew it off like most of us do?

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Re: Plane Crashes at Reno,Nevada Air Race

Harley mi friend: willl give you 10 : 1 that it was not his fault. It probably was an mechanical error. It had recently been modified with an engine of double the original power and weight and the wings shortened 5 ft on each side. It is also rumored that a part of the tail was seen flying off just before the accident, possibly one of the trim tabs.


With a heavier motor more weight would be needed in the tail and the trim would have to compensate for a new weight distribution factor outside of the original engineering specs.

The Stearmans that I was flying had exchanged the original motor of 220 hp for the newer bigger P & W 450 and 550 hp. as a result if we stalled the aircraft would simply pivot around the longitudial wing axis and go directly into the ground from 100 ft. Startling similar to what happened here if the pilot hadn't delibertly done this.

See the often posted picture of the results.

In any event it happened so quickly that hardly anyone could say what happened, but experienced pilots say that he apparently realized that he couldn't keep the aircraft from hitting the stands directly so instinctively nosed it into the ground sacrificing his life for the crowds. This is not uncommon with many pilots.

Incidentally, there is a vast difference between hitting the ground at 500 + mph and my air speed of approx 55 mph.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[TheHarleyMan2]

Re: Plane Crashes at Reno,Nevada Air Race

Thanks Don, I tried reading up on the accident but didn't find much. I can understand the bigger engine theory and modification of the wings, etc. The reason one should leave WW2 fighter planes as they are because there are very few of them left.

It seems though after the modifications done that he would have extensively tested out the plane to see what peek limits the plane can handle. After all not many people build something and take it on a first drive, test flight without testing extensive performance on it before going all out. I understand Linberg, the Wright Brothers and the like was just trial and error and got lucky with their builds. I am sure he tested it before taking it to a race, but logically it should seem that with the extensive modifications that someone should have gone back through the airframe front to back to find anything that would raise an eyebrow.

It seems shortening the wings 5ft would/should tell someone that something is going to happen. That is just too much wing to take off considering the size of the plane. I know the British did that with the Spitfire by taking about 2 feet off the wingtips and it performed better for turns, etc.

Either way it is a tragic thing to happen what did.

I can only envy you being able to fly all those wonderful planes in the day!

 

[njnydigger]

Re: Plane Crashes at Reno,Nevada Air Race

Another Mustang I heard

Yeah it is sad to hear about any death, but people need to realize that the old WW2 planes need to be restored, flown to air shows, shown etc, but using them for racing? Well, I understand that is ones hobby, but mostly those planes are fully rebuilt to stand the exertion that is involved in air races.

The man was almost mid 70's? It may have not been mechanical error. He could have been having a stroke or heart attack, especially around that age when most people usually have natural causing deaths around that age. Some live longer, but it could be possible he was having a heart attack and lost control of the plane and his fate was sealed. We will never know!

I understand that one must be in good health and good physical condition before flying and being able to continue flying, but at his age, who really knows if maybe he wasn't feeling too good that morning and just blew it off like most of us do?

I agree 1000% The pilot shouldn't be driving a car, let alone flying a stunt plane at an air show Don't want to upset the AARP crowd, but, doing those type of aerial maneuvers are dangerous enough on their own, then putting a 74 year old pilot in the cockpit to boot is just plain ludicrous.

Did the man really die a hero? Who knows. As the poster above stated, he might've had a stroke or a heart attack. I feel for ALL the victims involved. But, you play with stupid, you get stupid results

 

[hammered]

Re: Plane Crashes at Reno,Nevada Air Race

Update- this photo was taken just before the crash, showing part of the tail system missing.

 

[number2]

tailwing flap was falling off . I saw in a photo on TV.

 

[TheHarleyMan2]

That is the trim tab that is missing. I doubt trim tab wouldn't make a plane go out of control but who knows except pilots. I always thought trim tabs were used kind of like to keep the plane from moving to the right, left, up, down in flight with different altitudes and wind conditions. Here is the definition of a trim tab.

Many airplanes (including gliders) have trim tabs on their elevators, as a simple method of providing trim in the longitudinal axis.

All aircraft must have a system for ensuring trim in the longitudinal axis, though methods other than trim tabs may be used. Alternatives include:

a spring attached to the control system that can be adjusted by the pilot
in the case of the elevator, an all-moving horizontal stabilizer whose position can be adjusted in flight by the pilot.

Elevator trim frees the pilot from exerting constant pressure on the pitch controls. Instead, the pilot adjusts a longitudinal trim control (often in the form of a wheel) to cancel out control forces for a given airspeed / weight distribution. Typically, when this trim control is rotated forward, the nose is held down; conversely, if the trim wheel is moved back, the tail becomes "heavy". Many newer aircraft, especially jet aircraft have electric trim controls.

Many airplanes also have rudder and/or aileron trim systems. On some of these, the rudder trim tab is rigid but adjustable on the ground by bending: it is angled slightly to the left (when viewed from behind) to lessen the need for the pilot to push the rudder pedal constantly to overcome the left-turning tendencies of some prop-driven aircraft. Other aircraft have hinged rudder trim tabs that the pilot can adjust in flight.

When a trim tab is employed, it is moved into the slipstream opposite to the control surface's desired deflection. For example, in order to trim an elevator to hold the nose down, the elevator's trim tab will actually rise up into the slipstream. The increased pressure on top of the trim tab surface caused by raising it will then deflect the entire elevator slab down slightly, causing the tail to rise and the aircraft's nose to move down.

In the case of an aircraft where deployment of high-lift devices (flaps) would significantly alter the longitudinal trim, a supplementary trim tab is arranged to simultaneously deploy with the flaps so that pitch attitude is not markedly changed.

The use of trim tabs significantly reduces pilots' workload during continuous maneuvers (eg: sustained climb to altitude after takeoff or descent prior to landing), allowing them to focus their attention on other tasks such as traffic avoidance or communication with air traffic control.

Both elevator trim and pitch trim affect the small trimming part of the elevator on jet airliners. The former is supposed to be set in a certain position for a longer time, while the pitch trim (controlled with the landing pilots thumb on the yoke or joystick, and is thereby easy to maneuver) is used all the time after the flying pilot has disabled the autopilot, especially after each time the flaps are lowered or at every change in the airspeed, at the descent, approach and final. Elevator trim is most used for controlling the attitude at cruising by the autopilot.

Beyond reducing pilot workload, proper trim also increases fuel efficiency by reducing drag. For example, propeller aircraft have a tendency to yaw when operating at high power, for instance when climbing: this increases parasite drag because the craft is not flying straight into the apparent wind. In such circumstances, the use of an adjustable rudder trim tab can reduce yaw.

 

[Frankn]

They are now saying that the elevator flap came off completely preventing him from pullihg out of the dive. They say it shows on one of the videos. Frank

 

[hammered]

They are now saying that the elevator flap came off completely preventing him from pullihg out of the dive. They say it shows on one of the videos. Frank

Hi Frankn, I am an avid airshow fan and as such subscribe to more than a few airshow type websites and forums. Some Hi Def videos and pictures are now coming to the surface, media that, for obvious reasons I can't/won't post here. But it does seem that there was a catastrophic failure in the tail assembly, and that the pilot did indeed try to avoid the big crowd area. Having limited control, there would have been only so much he could do, in so short amount of time and under immense G force. Having said that, lets wait for the NTSB's report, I am no professional and, certainly in this case, will speculate no further. Once again, RIP to the pilot and condolences to all the families involved.


hammered

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Ladies and gentlemen: It now appears that the elevator trim tab failed and the aircraft started to nose down, which he corrected by nosing it up, but went into a hi speed stall. With altitude there would have been no serious problem, but when he realized that he couldn't avoid a high speed crash which he wouldn't survive, he altered his flight pattern as much as he could to limit the damage to himself.

Unfortunately he couldn't forsee the secondary damage from the disintergating aircraft, not that he had any time to do anything about it..

Quote-->

Pilot Ray Sherwood of Placerville, Calif., who raced at Reno from 1986 to 2005, said he's convinced that the crash was caused by modifications leading the trim tab to snap off. He said the same problem caused a modified P-51 Mustang to plunge into a neighborhood during the races in 1999, killing veteran pilot Gary Levitz.

Aircraft experts said losing the part could have forced Leeward to yank the plane up too fast, possibly overcorrecting and stalling, meaning the engines would be running but air breaks up over the wings, causing it to lose lift. He probably would have been able to pull out of it safely if he hadn't been at low altitude, they said.

"Assuming the aircraft had no other problems, and assuming the pilot had no problems, if he had enough altitude, you can easily get out of that no big deal ... Matter of fact, the P-51 was designed for that," said Ken Liano, a structural engineer and aircraft consultant. "But that's one of the problems with low-altitude flying: There's no time to correct."

Pilots modify their old P-51s to compete, but the alterations put additional stress on the aircraft, Sherwood said.

"If they are going to go as fast as they can, they have to modify the plane," he said.

Pilots were competing for a total of about $1 million in prize money, but Sherwood said the sport is really about the thrill. He said a P-51 like Leeward's would cost about $2.5 million.

"You can't make any money racing airplanes. It's too expensive to buy and maintain them," Sherwood said. "You do it for the love of the sport."


Don Jose de La Mancha

P.S. during ww-2 the Mustang was known to have a weakness that in certain maneuvers the tail section could twist off if not done smoothly.


"I exist to live , not live to exist".

 

[hammered]

Thank you Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp,

Your experience is welcomed, your editorial also.
Once again, it is an honour to have you post on one's thread, thank you


hammerd

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hammered he hehe ?? How come my wife doesn't say such things, even if undeserved??

Join me?

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[hammered]

Hammered he hehe ?? How come my wife doesn't say such things, even if undeserved??

Join me?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Anytime my friend


hammered

 

[Dano Sverige]

Hammered he hehe ?? How come my wife doesn't say such things, even if undeserved??

Join me?

Don Jose de La Mancha

Maybe your wifes experience of your post on her thread...is a bad one Don?

(Hammered made me say that...i'm innocent!)

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Dano, you can say that to an OIRISHMAN?? Sigh. They are God's gift to womankind, and they were some of the best RAF pilots in the battle of Britland, and continue to be even today..

In regards to our pilot at the air races, it is turning out to be that his reflexes, and general physical condition were equal to any, he was fully able and capable to physically and mentally to fly in the races. A fact that many of the younger pilots can not qualify for.

The average health in the US today is declining for many reasons, so merely because one has reached a certain age does not mean that they are 'automatically' incapable of driving a car or flying, that can only be found by the appropriate examinations.

Just think, on the highway, you are passing other vehicles with a closing speed of 150 mph, separated many times by only a foot or so. You are relying upon the other driver to do his / her part. sheesh now 'that' is scary.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[TheHarleyMan2]

Chuck Yeager still flys and he is almost as old as dirt!!!