Projectile Point - One of my best finds, but is it really 10,000 years old? #2

[Old Pueblo]

Hello, I found this nice projectile point near an old earthen water tank on my grandparents property in Southeastern Arizona, years ago. According to this Arizona projectile point identification guide found here http://www.projectilepoints.net/Points/Meserve.html, this is a "Meserve" type point dating back to 9,500 to 8,000 BC! Are there any projectile point experts here on T-net than can confirm this for me? (Note that this originally appeared in the "What is it" forum thing)


Point is a very dark gray or light black, Not sure on the type of rock it is, Ive never been very good at remembering their names.

 

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[rock]

To far for me to know the type but sure is a good looking point.

 

[Old Pueblo]

Thanks

 

[The Grim Reaper]

Just my opinion from what I can see and I may be wrong, but I don't think it's a Meserve. To me it looks more like a Triangle form and maybe a Bull Creek or a Fresno which would make it a few hundred years old. Hopefully some members from out in that area will chime in with their thoughts. Nice Point no matter the type though.

 

[Old Pueblo]

I was thinking Bull Creek or Fresno as well, but the black illustration and some of the examples seen in the identification guide above seem to more closely match, at least in my opinion, so Meserve was always my first guess. I know there are also a few well known paleo Indian sites in this general area of Southeastern AZ as well. Im also in SOuthern AZ, whereas the Bull Creek type points have only been found in Northern AZ, according to the identification guide.

This is the guide Ive looked at:

http://www.projectilepoints.net/Search/Arizona_Lanceolate.html

 

[Old Pueblo]

I also know that mammoth and mastodon teeth and bones have turned up quite often in southeastern Arizona, in my very area. Ive never found a mammoth fossil, though.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

I looked at that same site since I too use it quite often. However, I think some of the ones they have pictured as Meserves aren't really a Meserve type.

 

[NCPeaches]

It's a beauty and I always advise taking it to the local archeologists and they can tell you more about it.

 

[Old Pueblo]

I see. Ive always wondered about how reliable that guide was, which is why Im here now. Thanks again

 

[crj1968]

thats a really nice find Pueblo !

 

[Old Pueblo]

Yes, thank you. Whether 300 or 3,000, it doesnt make much difference to me. Still one of my favorites. But it would be cool to know for sure. Its just one of those difficult things to put an age on.

 

[southfork]

Nice looking Western Triangle Cluster point.

 

[scepter1]

I was thinking Bull Creek or Fresno as well, but the black illustration and some of the examples seen in the identification guide above seem to more closely match, at least in my opinion, so Meserve was always my first guess. I know there are also a few well known paleo Indian sites in this general area of Southeastern AZ as well. Im also in SOuthern AZ, whereas the Bull Creek type points have only been found in Northern AZ, according to the identification guide.

This is the guide Ive looked at:

Arizona Lanceolate Projectile Points

Those locations are generalizations - not "found only in" locations. For example I'm in Washington and find points listed for Oregon, California, and British Columbia that have been carried here or brought here as traded items...

 

[dognose]

What is the basal area like?


It the relic damaged in the basal area?
Is the base ground?
Is there any edge bevelling?




It almost appears as if there was a break in the base area. Are secondary flaking visible in the basel area, on both sides?


From the two photos it looks as these two photos area of the same side. Can you put a photo up of the other side please?

 

[Old Pueblo]

Yes, I understand that, but considering the guide says the Bull Creek points originate in the 4 corners, and not Southeastern Arizona, and that Meserve points do originate here (at least according to the guide), and knowing of the rich paleo history of this area, I tend to believe its meserve, but there are other considerations as well. If you look at it closely, the two sharpened sides of the blade do not extend down to the point in nice straight line, but are more rounded, and the base is clearly rounded as well, just as you see in the black illustration in the guide. Also, the only other artifacts found on my grandfather's property were tiny pieces of plain brown pottery sherds and one handed manos (grinding stones), no painted pottery or two handed grinding stones (which came into use much later and are very commonly found in this area). Also, the desert washes near their property are well known to contain mammoth, mastadon and ancient bison fossils, preserved dinosaur footprints and stuff like that. Another very important factor is the type of rock this point wqas made out of. ANd I can tell you without a doubt it was made of this dark gray almost black stuff that is very commonly found around here. Scrapers, knifes, agave cutters etc.. can all be found in this type of rock. That said, I'm certain this artifact was locally produced, and not aqcuired through trade.

 

[Old Pueblo]

Sorry, my camera is not the best. There is not beveling, grind marks or anything like that. It is not damaged, as far as I can tell, the bottom corner is like that from when the maker chipped off that last piece at the end. Its just imperfect.

 

[Old Pueblo]

If you look at this point, and then look at the Meserve point (4th from left) in the guide, I think there are unmistakable similarities. Another thing about triangle points is they are generally small, and not very long, whereas this is long and skinny.

 

[The Grim Reaper]

There are longer examples of Triangles in your area and in mine. I have some types here upwards to 3+ inches. I still say it belongs in the Triangle family and not the Meserve family.

 

[Old Pueblo]

You could be right, as it was found on the surface, although there is an old water tank nearby and it could have washed up from there or something. Anyway, Its good to hear what everyone is saying, but I just want to be clear on exactly why Ive always thought it was a meserve. Ive also seen a lot of the triangular points down here in our local museum, and they are usually very small, bird points and so forth.

 

[Old Pueblo]

If you can, Id love to see a photo of some of your finds. I have a few more points around as well that I can upload. I also have some more stuff that I purchased a long time ago, from the Midwest. It would be cool to get an idea on exactly what I have there. Thanks again