Question about turning in finds to the government.

[namxat]

Didn't know that Mexico had a Queen.

As far as I can remember, the technical term is "split estate", whereas mineral rights and and surface rights do not go hand in hand. Not nice for the property owner, yet imho in densly settled areas sometimes the onyl way. English, Belgian, french and German coal mines were in areas with 100s of thousands inhabitants. English property law is basically a train wreck with leasehold, freehold and fee simple sometimes together in one large industrial estate.

While the US has far more comprehensive land owner protection laws, generally speaking, the old "feudal" thinking has still some traces left: You buy still "Real Estate" not "Republican land".


Greets Namxat

 

[Johnnybravo300]

I've never had any govt officials following me around while detecting. I feel lonely now.

 

[against the wind]

Ok, let me correct that: "Belongs to the crown" (Bet you didn't know that they wore crowns in Mexico, eh ? )

Well Tom,, Napoleon III made Maximillian and his bride , Emperor and Empress (Carlota) of Mexico back in the 1860's.
Then old Max was made to stand in front of a firing squad. You must be confused with California, which was part of Mexico. There are plenty of Queens up around San Francisco way, with Flowers in their hair. Wouldn't surprise me if a few of them are wearing crowns.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

So I was reading old banner finds, and saw a coin spill in England and the finder said he was going to turn the coins in instead of keeping them. I wanted to ask how and why do folks in certain different countries turn in the Coins they find? Then what's the point of detecting? Like are the feds going to search your house if you keep them?

It's not a violation of integrity, the government already has plenty of resources and could care less for an individual or their way of life. The way I see it if it was found on yours or someone else's property it belongs to you, how on God's green earth does it belong to the government? Because they say so?

I feel so blessed that I live in America and not under quite such a tyrannical government, where we're freer than most......

Here in America we are citizens. The people of Britain and Canada are subjects.
Progressives believe in the State- a lot of us believe in the individual.
Some Americans do not know or do not understand that the resources of the goverment are our resources. Many in our goverment want us to believe otherwise- as if the goverment is an entity we must obey without question.
I understand the issue of historical finds are complex. Unfortunately the goverment is hardly to be trusted. The goverment, waving a sheaf of rules devised by people not elected, steps in and seizes land and tells us what we may and may not do there. Certainly we do not want streams polluted by medicsl waste; however, it has been seen those in government often apply rules unfairly. Whuch is to say there are rules for the masses and another set of rules for the powerful and connected.
If I found a cache of Confederate gold I am not running to the nearest representative of government.
I haven't seen any posts by detectors from Britain giving a general idea of the compensation for a particular find. Would be nice.
I wonder how many treasure seekers (us) are there and do we exist in sufficient numbers to catch the attention of government.
I don't want people, who make a mess of everything uusually, to start defining what is treasure, and what is historical treasure which must be snatched from the unwashed peasant. Not including shipwrecks which probably another issue.
I' m afraid if we go begging for rules and regulation we will get more than we might have dreamed.
How accessible to the common folk are the objects taken in the name of the Queen? Do they vanish into places where only those who are of sufficient education and class? How does a detectorist get a relationship with the archaeologists? Are some detectorists forbidden to detect for one reason or another?
Some found things in Ameruca could be said to belong to all if us- some of us are not able to protect and store very old and valuable items.
I also often wonder, given the strong strain of individualism to be found throughout Tnet, how many have found things which they are not going to reveal.

 

[Dardariel]

Here in America we are citizens. The people of Britain and Canada are subjects.
Progressives believe in the State- a lot of us believe in the individual.
Some Americans do not know or do not understand that the resources of the goverment are our resources. Many in our goverment want us to believe otherwise- as if the goverment is an entity we must obey without question.
I understand the issue of historical finds are complex. Unfortunately the goverment is hardly to be trusted. The goverment, waving a sheaf of rules devised by people not elected, steps in and seizes land and tells us what we may and may not do there. Certainly we do not want streams polluted by medicsl waste; however, it has been seen those in government often apply rules unfairly. Whuch is to say there are rules for the masses and another set of rules for the powerful and connected.
If I found a cache of Confederate gold I am not running to the nearest representative of government.
I haven't seen any posts by detectors from Britain giving a general idea of the compensation for a particular find. Would be nice.
I wonder how many treasure seekers (us) are there and do we exist in sufficient numbers to catch the attention of government.
I don't want people, who make a mess of everything uusually, to start defining what is treasure, and what is historical treasure which must be snatched from the unwashed peasant. Not including shipwrecks which probably another issue.
I' m afraid if we go begging for rules and regulation we will get more than we might have dreamed.
How accessible to the common folk are the objects taken in the name of the Queen? Do they vanish into places where only those who are of sufficient education and class? How does a detectorist get a relationship with the archaeologists? Are some detectorists forbidden to detect for one reason or another?
Some found things in Ameruca could be said to belong to all if us- some of us are not able to protect and store very old and valuable items.
I also often wonder, given the strong strain of individualism to be found throughout Tnet, how many have found things which they are not going to reveal.

 

[namxat]

I've never had any govt officials following me around while detecting. I feel lonely now.

Hmm, you should try harder! You dont find the right things.

The two guys which found this got a year and a half (on probation). Rather for trying to sell it than for finding it, so every question about legality of the dig was circumvented.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nebra_sky_disk

Greets Namxat

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....I understand the issue of historical finds are complex.....

It's not "complex" to me. It looks pretty durned nice on my mantle place !

 

[Tom_in_CA]

....
The two guys which found this got a year and a half (on probation)....

Namxat: Whenever something astounding is found (atocha, the item in your link, etc...), then .... sure "authorities" are sure to jump out of hiding from behind every bush.

 

[namxat]

Namxat: Whenever something astounding is found (atocha, the item in your link, etc...), then .... sure "authorities" are sure to jump out of hiding from behind every bush.

Tom_in_Ca, In my case this thing did really change the way haw we think about our forebears 3000-4000 years ago, so I actually think It should belong to science and should belong into museum. However, that the government takes something (almost as being from gods grace) with an security value of EUR 100m and the finders get the generous re-compensation of being covincted felons is a simple outrage. I saw the item in the museum and it hearbreaking beautiful and one of the most awesome prehistoric items ever seen.

....And when I tried to take a smartphone photo, I was nearly thrown out. If you want a pic, buy it. Also in the wiki article, the state government registered it as trademark. An 3600 old object! If I cant even photograph it, it is not "ours". Its "theirs".

Were do in this story the archies fit? Nowhere, there is now 100 years or more state sponsored, tax paid "cultural heritage protection" and they did not dig the place once. They would have not shifted their carcasses there for another 100 years, I bet.

Last state sponsored archy I spoke with told me they dont dig anymore (save for "rescue digs") for two reasons: A) "We dont have money, we are underfunded". She couldnt answer the counterquestion wht the budget of the authoritiy in a fiscal year is, ballpark number. But it is not enough, for sure. B) "Our heritage is save in the earth" ...So pour concrete over every significant site and be happy? "One cant discuss with you".

Sorry for the rant, yet had to be.



Greet Namxat

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

Tom_in_Ca, In my case this thing did really change the way haw we think about our forebears 3000-4000 years ago, so I actually think It should belong to science and should belong into museum. However, that the government takes something (almost as being from gods grace) with an security value of EUR 100m and the finders get the generous re-compensation of being covincted felons is a simple outrage. I saw the item in the museum and it hearbreaking beautiful and one of the most awesome prehistoric items ever seen.

....And when I tried to take a smartphone photo, I was nearly thrown out. If you want a pic, buy it. Also in the wiki article, the state government registered it as trademark. An 3600 old object! If I cant even photograph it, it is not "ours". Its "theirs".

Were do in this story the archies fit? Nowhere, there is now 100 years or more state sponsored, tax paid "cultural heritage protection" and they did not dig the place once. They would have not shifted their carcasses there for another 100 years, I bet.

Last state sponsored archy I spoke with told me they dont dig anymore (save for "rescue digs") for two reasons: A) "We dont have money, we are underfunded". She couldnt answer the counterquestion wht the budget of the authoritiy in a fiscal year is, ballpark number. But it is not enough, for sure. B) "Our heritage is save in the earth" ...So pour concrete over every significant site and be happy? "One cant discuss with you".

Sorry for the rant, yet had to be.



Greet Namxat

I feel a little queasy about the " belongs to science" term. But I like your rant.

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

It's not "complex" to me. It looks pretty durned nice on my mantle place !

I was speaking of when the lawyers get involved. You :did simplify the issue by sticking it on the mantle. As most of us would have.

 

[Dave Rishar]

Yup, I'm a filthly metal detectorist. How about you ?

I did say "...like us...", implying that I'm in that category. I don't think of myself as a filthy person in general, but I've had a few negative interactions with people that thought poorly of me because I was metal detecting. I'm attempting to portray their point of view.

Dave Dave Dave: This has been discussed on MANY MANY threads It's always the same song & dance: The British system is seen as the "perfect hand-holding" of archies and md'rs right ? But their system is very misunderstood by USA md'rs :

Carefully read what I wrote again. Like I said, I'm not an expert on how the UK handles things, but I like the theory behind it. I did not say that their system is perfect. I would be extremely surprised if it was perfect. What I like about it is that if the government has a concern in what a citizen finds (and I'm talking about on public land, which I didn't make clear earlier,) then they're welcome to explain why it's important to them, and then they can buy it at a fair price.

It will never happen here in the USA. Because, unlike Britain , the crown does not own all the resources under the ground. If you find oil (or a cache etc...) in the ground, it's PERFECTLY BETWEEN you and farmer Bob how you want to split that.

You're right...it will never happen here. And what happens on private property should remain a private matter. And what happens on public property should be a public matter. I'd like to see detectorists have the option of jumping through some hoops (as onerous as those hoops may be, up to and including the government forcibly purchasing historically significant finds) if it opens up new areas to detectorists. It seems like a potential win-win situation for all involved, but again, you're absolutely right...it will never happen here.

However, when discussing America, the crown absolutely owns the resources under the public's ground. Those are the resources that are currently off limits. I have a chance at working things out with Farmer Bob, but I can never work things out with Uncle Sam currently.

And ask yourself why 99% of the hunting in the UK is done @ farmer's fields with permission ? Rather than show & tell from beaches, parks, etc...... Trust me: The UK "system" does not magically open up sensitive monuments there. Nor would it do so here. DNR, etc... blah blah.

Hence, my liking the concept, if not the implementation. To clarify, I'm envisioning a system where you can continue to do business with Farmer Bob (and even if you couldn't, if you and Bob agreed to split the loot and keep your mouths shut, Uncle Sam would never know; our country was sort of founded on this concept, which may be why it's so alien in some parts of the world outside of America but it seems perfectly natural here), but if you wanted to do business with Uncle Sam, there would be a process involved. That process would likely suck, but its risk/reward ratio would be more palatable to the average detectorist than nighthawking is.

In fact, to even SUGGEST such a thing, will simply open up a can of worms resulting in MORE LAWS against us.

That depends heavily on how it's presented.

 

[Holyground]

HMMMM! I never had one question about that.

 

[Duckshot]

I know what you mean about how nobody seems to have the sense to realize that an agreement between two men does not require government, Dave Rishar. IIRC, it was Ben Franklin who was striking coins- "Mind Your Business".

 

[Hillbilly Prince]

Yup, I'm a filthly metal detectorist. How about you ?



Dave Dave Dave: This has been discussed on MANY MANY threads It's always the same song & dance: The British system is seen as the "perfect hand-holding" of archies and md'rs right ? But their system is very misunderstood by USA md'rs :

It will never happen here in the USA. Because, unlike Britain , the crown does not own all the resources under the ground. If you find oil (or a cache etc...) in the ground, it's PERFECTLY BETWEEN you and farmer Bob how you want to split that.

And ask yourself why 99% of the hunting in the UK is done @ farmer's fields with permission ? Rather than show & tell from beaches, parks, etc...... Trust me: The UK "system" does not magically open up sensitive monuments there. Nor would it do so here. DNR, etc... blah blah.

In fact, to even SUGGEST such a thing, will simply open up a can of worms resulting in MORE LAWS against us.

I like that. filthy Detectorist. Now we are in the same class as a filthy Resurrectionist?

 

[Icewing]

All I know is that there is a lot of misconceptions in regard to what we find and what we do with it. I've personally asked every archeologist I have ever met about what I should do with the things I find and showed them many historically significant items but all they ever really do is shrug their shoulders and say "enjoy".
So long as you didn't find it on a National Park or anywhere that's strictly protected as archeological sites like most State Parks, it's perfectly legal and yours to keep. It does not matter if it's 10 years old or 10,000 years old.

The long and short of it is, the vast majority of historically significant sights are already either government owned or destroyed in order to build subdivisions and shopping centers. The same places that were good to occupy way back then are the same places we occupy today. The difference is we use heavy equipment to strip the topsoil and haul it away before we build.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

.... I've personally asked every archeologist I have ever met about what I should do with the things I find and showed them many historically significant items but all they ever really do is shrug their shoulders and say "enjoy".....

Then you have not bumped into archie who have a "purist" mindset. If you run into a purist archie, they will often bristle at the concept of ANY layman, digging ANY old targets ANYWHERE. Yup, even on private property with permission.

 

[Ditch_Doc]

In Mexico anything valuable you find and mention belongs to the Cartel....

 

[Tom_in_CA]

In Mexico anything valuable you find and mention belongs to the Cartel....

Correct. And if anyone has any doubt as to the validity of this rule, all they need to do is , the following: Show up with a bar of gold. Show it to a Cartel member. Ask them: "Hi. Does this belong to you ? Or can I keep it ?" . Then sit back and relish in their answer. Heck, it doesn't hurt to ask, right ? After all, you wouldn't want to do the wrong thing, eh ?

 

[faribo]

In some European countries finds that are believed to be older than a certain date are to be turned in primarily for educational purposes so they can be studied and recorded, it has very little to do with value.

Personally I will happily hand over just about anything I find to a museum or educational institution so long as I feel confident that that's what it will be used for. All I ask in return is credit for the find.

You and I are just greasy little history bandits to them. If they don't find it themself, they consider it useless and usually toss it in the trash. A guy on another forum ratted a bunch of them out for doing this.