Rocks piled or fallen cairns, or stake supports?

[Holyground]

In 1548, Philip II issued the Ordenanzas del Nuevo Cuaderno that for the first time clearly applied the laws of Spain to its New World colonies and gave the viceroys authority to issue implementing ordinances as required by local circumstances. Based on this authorization, the first comprehensive mining ordinance for the New World was issued by Viceroy Mendoza on January 14, 1550. This law contained 49 separate provisions and was apparently Viceroy Mendoza's attempt to codify the existing royal pronouncements as he understood them in the framework of a practical mining code for use in New Spain. The essential process was as follows: The discoverer of a mineral deposit was permitted a single claim of 80 varas (a vara is approximately 32 inches) along the strike, or length on the surface, of the vein and 40 varas across the vein. All claims registered after the original discovery were restrict- ed to a smaller claim of 60 varas along the vein and 30 varas across. Each miner was prohibited from having more
than two mines within 1,000 varas ofthe original discovery except by purchase. The original locator had 15 days within which to register his find, the failure of which resulted in the loss ofthe right to the larger claim. In the case ofcon- flicting claims, the first to register the claim became the owner and where the requests for registration were simultaneous, the claimants were required to draw lots.
After the registration process was complete, the claim holders were required to sink a shaft of three estados (or approximately 18% feet) within three months, and the claim boundaries were required to be marked with stakes of one-half vara in height together with posting of a notice on the claim. The failure to erect these monuments car- ried a fine of ten pesos (a peso at the time contained approximately three-quarters of an ounce of silver).



This may be all there is in the actual mine area. Try looking for the corner boundaries of a claim in a really rocky area. There are no real carved monuments that I know of, off of the main trail into a mine location. The King of Spain advised them that he wanted mines marked much like they are today, and that is where we got the basic protocol. Later different mining district set forth their own measurements and general rules but the marking system is pretty much the same, later becoming standardized. The Spaniards didn't have plastic pipe.

 

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[sdcfia]

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View attachment 1580295

This may be all there is in the actual mine area. Try looking for the corner boundaries of a claim in a really rocky area. There are no real carved monuments that I know of, off of the main trail into a mine location. The King of Spain advised them that he wanted mines marked much like they are today, and that is where we got the basic protocol. Later different mining district set forth their own measurements and general rules but the marking system is pretty much the same, later becoming standardized. The Spaniards didn't have plastic pipe.

It’s almost impossible to identify most of the mos’s (mound of stones) found in mineralized districts.

If the claim is in the US and is patented, then a mineral survey was completed and the corners were marked according to the description given on the plat or in the surveyor’s field notes. Most were a mos with perhaps a wooden 4x4 or 2” iron pipe in the middle or a prominent carved stone nearby. The patented claims are reasonably easy to identify, and I’ve shown some we’ve found recently on some of my recent posts.

However, plain old unpatented mining claim corners are much harder to identify since there are so many of them scattered all over the place and the original descriptions are either vague, lost or non-existent. Most old corners are simple and crude mos’s, with no other ID. Sometimes if you’re lucky you might find an old tobacco tin (Prince Albert) with old crumbly paperwork inside, or more recently, a plastic pill bottle. They could be 150 years old or 20 years old. PVC pipes are easy to ID of course. But for the most part, the hills are covered with plain old anonymous piles of rocks. Could they be “Spanish”? Sure, it’s technically possible, I guess, but in the US the chances are extremely slim to none. Are the mos’s mining claim corners? Very probable in a mining district, but they could also be trail markers, property markers, hunters’ monuments, etc. The only thing you can bank on is that a human built it.

 

[A2coins]

Amazing looks good search till you locate it good post

 

[cyzak]

It’s almost impossible to identify most of the mos’s (mound of stones) found in mineralized districts.

If the claim is in the US and is patented, then a mineral survey was completed and the corners were marked according to the description given on the plat or in the surveyor’s field notes. Most were a mos with perhaps a wooden 4x4 or 2” iron pipe in the middle or a prominent carved stone nearby. The patented claims are reasonably easy to identify, and I’ve shown some we’ve found recently on some of my recent posts.

However, plain old unpatented mining claim corners are much harder to identify since there are so many of them scattered all over the place and the original descriptions are either vague, lost or non-existent. Most old corners are simple and crude mos’s, with no other ID. Sometimes if you’re lucky you might find an old tobacco tin (Prince Albert) with old crumbly paperwork inside, or more recently, a plastic pill bottle. They could be 150 years old or 20 years old. PVC pipes are easy to ID of course. But for the most part, the hills are covered with plain old anonymous piles of rocks. Could they be “Spanish”? Sure, it’s technically possible, I guess, but in the US the chances are extremely slim to none. Are the mos’s mining claim corners? Very probable in a mining district, but they could also be trail markers, property markers, hunters’ monuments, etc. The only thing you can bank on is that a human built it.

Explain why it would be so extremely slim or none that there would not be a Spanish mine in the US.

 

[sdcfia]

Explain why it would be so extremely slim or none that there would not be a Spanish mine in the US.

I've already done that - several times - on different threads here on TNet. Rather than continuously parroting myself, let me give you some ideas on what to research for yourself. That way, if you spend time finding out the truth of the matters, you may be inclined to modify some your beliefs.

1. Learn how the Crown controlled mining in Mexico.
2. Discover how the mining contractors obtained permits and how the Crown was able to determine and collect its share of the proceeds.
3. Realize who owned the mines.
4. Understand the logistics in operating a mining venture - how the mineral deposit was found, who paid all the costs of the operation, how much it cost, what sort of mining experience was required from key employees/partners, where the food came from to sustain the miners and livestock, and more.
5. Study the geology of where the massive amounts of precious metals were found and recovered in Mexico (mostly silver, some gold). Ask yourself why a contractor would gamble on prospecting in a totally unknown wilderness hundreds of miles beyond the northern frontier when fortunes were easily exploited in central Mexico.

That said, yes there were several authentic Spanish hard rock mines that were operated in North America before Mexican Independence. Not dozens or hundreds all over the place, but some - Santa Rita del Cobre (still operating today), some sites in the Ortiz Mountains and the Cerrillos District close to Santa Fe, and some places in southern Colorado also operating out of Santa Fe. In these times and later, nearly all the producing Spanish miners were making a killing back in Mexico. The only Spanish miners in North America in those days were a handful of guys who happened to be in the very few northern outposts. Not many, but some.

Later, after Mexican Independence, there were more numerous unregulated Mexican operations in North America as settlements expanded north. Most of these were small wildcat ventures - mostly placer recoveries, but some hard rock sites too. When the Mexicans were forced out after the US Mexican War, the early Anglo prospectors found most of these Mexican mines and simply claimed them for themselves. The Americans were required to monument their claims with mounds of stones at the corners, which they did to legalize them. Many of these early mounds of stones are likely still to be found in the hills. If you're diligent, you can research these old claims in county courthouses. It's not easy, but many old claims can be identified based on the locations of the corners and old claim maps found in various places. On the other hand, a mound of stones may have been erected twenty years ago by a modern miner or somebody else for some completely different purpose.

 

[Carl-NC]

I've already done that - several times - on different threads here on TNet. Rather than continuously parroting myself, let me give you some ideas on what to research for yourself. That way, if you spend time finding out the truth of the matters, you may be inclined to modify some your beliefs.

1. Learn how the Crown controlled mining in Mexico.
2. Discover how the mining contractors obtained permits and how the Crown was able to determine and collect its share of the proceeds.
3. Realize who owned the mines.
4. Understand the logistics in operating a mining venture - how the mineral deposit was found, who paid all the costs of the operation, how much it cost, what sort of mining experience was required from key employees/partners, where the food came from to sustain the miners and livestock, and more.
5. Study the geology of where the massive amounts of precious metals were found and recovered in Mexico (mostly silver, some gold). Ask yourself why a contractor would gamble on prospecting in a totally unknown wilderness hundreds of miles beyond the northern frontier when fortunes were easily exploited in central Mexico.

That said, yes there were several authentic Spanish hard rock mines that were operated in North America before Mexican Independence. Not dozens or hundreds all over the place, but some - Santa Rita del Cobre (still operating today), some sites in the Ortiz Mountains and the Cerrillos District close to Santa Fe, and some places in southern Colorado also operating out of Santa Fe. In these times and later, nearly all the producing Spanish miners were making a killing back in Mexico. The only Spanish miners in North America in those days were a handful of guys who happened to be in the very few northern outposts. Not many, but some.

Later, after Mexican Independence, there were more numerous unregulated Mexican operations in North America as settlements expanded north. Most of these were small wildcat ventures - mostly placer recoveries, but some hard rock sites too. When the Mexicans were forced out after the US Mexican War, the early Anglo prospectors found most of these Mexican mines and simply claimed them for themselves. The Americans were required to monument their claims with mounds of stones at the corners, which they did to legalize them. Many of these early mounds of stones are likely still to be found in the hills. If you're diligent, you can research these old claims in county courthouses. It's not easy, but many old claims can be identified based on the locations of the corners and old claim maps found in various places. On the other hand, a mound of stones may have been erected twenty years ago by a modern miner or somebody else for some completely different purpose.

A rare useful post.

 

[cyzak]

Rocks piled or fallen cairns so we are looking for old Spanish mines and we have referenced King Philip and New Spain. I believe and I did go back and do some research but i am just getting started that California, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, and a little bit of Wyoming and Montana were part of New Spain.I think the 1 on the list i do not want to miss quote should have been how did the crown control mining in New Spain not Mexico or am i wrong here.And yes this is going to be a very useful post because we are going to find out all about rock piled or fallen cairns in New Spain.

 

[sdcfia]

Rocks piled or fallen cairns so we are looking for old Spanish mines and we have referenced King Philip and New Spain. I believe and I did go back and do some research but i am just getting started that California, Utah, Colorado, Arizona, New Mexico, and a little bit of Wyoming and Montana were part of New Spain.I think the 1 on the list i do not want to miss quote should have been how did the crown control mining in New Spain not Mexico or am i wrong here.And yes this is going to be a very useful post because we are going to find out all about rock piled or fallen cairns in New Spain.

Try this site. Do a Google Translate first.

https://dokumen.site/download/catalogo-fondo-colonial-a5b39f0a475732

 

[sdcfia]

A rare useful post.

Too bad most folks follow Mark Twain's statement: "Never let the truth get in the way of a good story."

 

[Holyground]

The key here, as sdcfia has pointed out, is that the Americans came in later, refound these old workings and exhausted them. One example that illustrates this completely is the Silverbell Mine near Pacacho Peak. I can take you to the Spanish Monuments still there, that lead right up to the mine. This also proves my theory that the early American miners followed the Spanish and Jesuit signs to the mines. I have found proof of that in a few places. As far as not letting the truth get in the way of a good story, I say never let someone else's truth sway your own instincts and reasoning. It doesn't really matter who was there 300, 200, 100 years earlier. See what they left buried. Dig?

 

[cyzak]

The key here, as sdcfia has pointed out, is that the Americans came in later, refound these old workings and exhausted them. One example that illustrates this completely is the Silverbell Mine near Pacacho Peak. I can take you to the Spanish Monuments still there, that lead right up to the mine. This also proves my theory that the early American miners followed the Spanish and Jesuit signs to the mines. I have found proof of that in a few places. As far as not letting the truth get in the way of a good story, I say never let someone else's truth sway your own instincts and reasoning. It doesn't really matter who was there 300, 200, 100 years earlier. See what they left buried. Dig?

I am in full agreement with you on that I have been to a few of the Spanish mines to and most of them were taken over by the Americans and all evidence was destroyed unfortunately.

 

[Charl]

I've already done that - several times - on different threads here on TNet. Rather than continuously parroting myself, let me give you some ideas on what to research for yourself. That way, if you spend time finding out the truth of the matters, you may be inclined to modify some your beliefs.

1. Learn how the Crown controlled mining in Mexico.
2. Discover how the mining contractors obtained permits and how the Crown was able to determine and collect its share of the proceeds.
3. Realize who owned the mines.
4. Understand the logistics in operating a mining venture - how the mineral deposit was found, who paid all the costs of the operation, how much it cost, what sort of mining experience was required from key employees/partners, where the food came from to sustain the miners and livestock, and more.
5. Study the geology of where the massive amounts of precious metals were found and recovered in Mexico (mostly silver, some gold). Ask yourself why a contractor would gamble on prospecting in a totally unknown wilderness hundreds of miles beyond the northern frontier when fortunes were easily exploited in central Mexico.

That said, yes there were several authentic Spanish hard rock mines that were operated in North America before Mexican Independence. Not dozens or hundreds all over the place, but some - Santa Rita del Cobre (still operating today), some sites in the Ortiz Mountains and the Cerrillos District close to Santa Fe, and some places in southern Colorado also operating out of Santa Fe. In these times and later, nearly all the producing Spanish miners were making a killing back in Mexico. The only Spanish miners in North America in those days were a handful of guys who happened to be in the very few northern outposts. Not many, but some.

Later, after Mexican Independence, there were more numerous unregulated Mexican operations in North America as settlements expanded north. Most of these were small wildcat ventures - mostly placer recoveries, but some hard rock sites too. When the Mexicans were forced out after the US Mexican War, the early Anglo prospectors found most of these Mexican mines and simply claimed them for themselves. The Americans were required to monument their claims with mounds of stones at the corners, which they did to legalize them. Many of these early mounds of stones are likely still to be found in the hills. If you're diligent, you can research these old claims in county courthouses. It's not easy, but many old claims can be identified based on the locations of the corners and old claim maps found in various places. On the other hand, a mound of stones may have been erected twenty years ago by a modern miner or somebody else for some completely different purpose.

Just for clarity's sake, Mexico itself is a part of North America. Perhaps in southernmost Mexico, and Yucatán, that could be considered Central America, I'm not certain, but the brunt of Mexico is a part of the North American continent.

 

[sdcfia]

Just for clarity's sake, Mexico itself is a part of North America. Perhaps in southernmost Mexico, and Yucatán, that could be considered Central America, I'm not certain, but the brunt of Mexico is a part of the North American continent.

That's correct in that the UN has defined it as such. When I learned geography in school as a youngster, things were different - North America was The USA and Canada. I guess old habits die hard, but I do stand corrected - my post should have read "USA", not "North America."

 

[Holyground]

The Jesuits didn't go very far north in what is today's America. The Spaniards on the other hand, were everywhere, but there were not that many parties of miners in the extreme north, as far as we can see. We have found Spanish monuments as far north as Idaho. They were north of the Snake River. Their activities there were sparse at best. Again, later, early American miners found their digs and exhausted them. I know of one site that leaves me with a gut feeling that there may still be a cache nearby, simply because of the logistics involved in moving massive treasure in such a remote location. It is still a good producer of gold today so I image that was the reason the Spaniards set up shop there and had time to create some big, well crafted stone monuments. It seems that anything less than a Bonanza and they would turn up their noses, being so far out. Coronado was under the false impression that Cibola was just over the next rise, somewhere north. That was the motivation for a hardy few. The Indians told them that fable to keep them moving on.

 

[mdog]

The Jesuits didn't go very far north in what is today's America. The Spaniards on the other hand, were everywhere, but there were not that many parties of miners in the extreme north, as far as we can see. We have found Spanish monuments as far north as Idaho. They were north of the Snake River. Their activities there were sparse at best. Again, later, early American miners found their digs and exhausted them. I know of one site that leaves me with a gut feeling that there may still be a cache nearby, simply because of the logistics involved in moving massive treasure in such a remote location. It is still a good producer of gold today so I image that was the reason the Spaniards set up shop there and had time to create some big, well crafted stone monuments. It seems that anything less than a Bonanza and they would turn up their noses, being so far out. Coronado was under the false impression that Cibola was just over the next rise, somewhere north. That was the motivation for a hardy few. The Indians told them that fable to keep them moving on.

I’m asking this question with no disrespect intended. You mention that Spanish diggings were found north of the Snake, do you know if any artifacts have been found that could date the site and confirm the Spanish were there? Thanks.

 

[sdcfia]

The Jesuits didn't go very far north in what is today's America. The Spaniards on the other hand, were everywhere, but there were not that many parties of miners in the extreme north, as far as we can see. We have found Spanish monuments as far north as Idaho. They were north of the Snake River. Their activities there were sparse at best. Again, later, early American miners found their digs and exhausted them. I know of one site that leaves me with a gut feeling that there may still be a cache nearby, simply because of the logistics involved in moving massive treasure in such a remote location. It is still a good producer of gold today so I image that was the reason the Spaniards set up shop there and had time to create some big, well crafted stone monuments. It seems that anything less than a Bonanza and they would turn up their noses, being so far out. Coronado was under the false impression that Cibola was just over the next rise, somewhere north. That was the motivation for a hardy few. The Indians told them that fable to keep them moving on.

Please explain how those monuments you found in Idaho were identified as Spanish.

The Spanish Jesuits didn't penetrate much of today's USA before their expulsion in1767. I believe they did some modest silver mining in AZ, but nowhere near as much as the treasure magazines allege. I suspect they were more treasure hunters than miners - more along the lines of Coronado, et al. IMO, these folks may have had prior information about older USA sites - information they were trying to verify and exploit if possible. The Jesuits MO was that they were here to save souls, but that cover story hid their real intent - enriching their Order.

The French Jesuits weren't so much miners as they were explorers and settlers. Their information helped French Nationals exploit the New World, with fur trade a major component. It seems more likely that any very early white mining in the higher latitudes could have been French rather than Spanish IMO. We know the French were likely mining certain areas of southern CO.

By the way, speaking of monumentation, the fur trappers did a great deal of routine caching of equipment and pelts during trapping season in the Rockies, all the way from the northern reaches down to the future Mexican border. It's my thought that many "Spanish treasure signs" found in remote locations were rock cairns and tree blazes used to mark trappers' caches up to about the 1830s, more or less.

 

[cyzak]

The Jesuits didn't go very far north in what is today's America. The Spaniards on the other hand, were everywhere, but there were not that many parties of miners in the extreme north, as far as we can see. We have found Spanish monuments as far north as Idaho. They were north of the Snake River. Their activities there were sparse at best. Again, later, early American miners found their digs and exhausted them. I know of one site that leaves me with a gut feeling that there may still be a cache nearby, simply because of the logistics involved in moving massive treasure in such a remote location. It is still a good producer of gold today so I image that was the reason the Spaniards set up shop there and had time to create some big, well crafted stone monuments. It seems that anything less than a Bonanza and they would turn up their noses, being so far out. Coronado was under the false impression that Cibola was just over the next rise, somewhere north. That was the motivation for a hardy few. The Indians told them that fable to keep them moving on.

Excellent post Holyground I have spent some time in the San Juan mountains on the same type of site you are explaining here on your post. I have been following a travel way heading south that they were using to move it along but it is a slow process i run at about 10,000 feet.This was an article that came from are local paper here I thought it was kind of interesting.

 

[Holyground]

I’m asking this question with no disrespect intended. You mention that Spanish diggings were found north of the Snake, do you know if any artifacts have been found that could date the site and confirm the Spanish were there? Thanks.

No. Haven't put much time into it. May never put any more time into it. Don't know. Other things keeping me busy now. If you would like to pursue it, start with Spanish Town in Idaho, above Anderson Ranch Dam. The early American miners found most of the artifacts that were still there, I'm sure. Besides, I don't collect artifacts. I take pictures of the most interesting ones and then leave them there. At 65 years old, I have enough rusty old junk laying around, namely me. No disrespect intended and none assumed. Also, there is a very interesting old document, A DIARY OF JULES DEFOE WHO TRAVELED IN IDAHO IN 1789. He actually found himself in this area and sat upon a mountain side watching Spaniards processing gold ore, until they spotted him. Then the race was on! They chased him down to the snake river where he found Indians in their villages below. Soon, he saw that the Spaniards where still tracking him so he took off towards the Indians village but before arriving, he spotted several Indian kids playing on the side of the hill. He waited until the timing was just right and ran towards the Indian kid screaming and even roughed a few of them up. Some of the Indian kids ran and told the tribe what had just happened so they headed up the hill, towards the Spanish that were headed down trying to catch this French Trapper. The trapper did a quick exit stage left, leaving the Indians and the Spaniards to run head long into each other where a bloody battle ensued, with the Indians coming out on top. Jules snuck along the river and escaped. Quite a nice bit of history there. The carvings on the rocks leading up the canyon to Spanish Town tell the story. Crosses, daggers, cairns, and even large gunsite stacks. There are Aspens with very old crosses carved in them but I'm not decided on them yet. Fell free to go see what you can see if you are in Idaho.

 

[Holyground]

Please explain how those monuments you found in Idaho were identified as Spanish.

The Spanish Jesuits didn't penetrate much of today's USA before their expulsion in1767. I believe they did some modest silver mining in AZ, but nowhere near as much as the treasure magazines allege. I suspect they were more treasure hunters than miners - more along the lines of Coronado, et al. IMO, these folks may have had prior information about older USA sites - information they were trying to verify and exploit if possible. The Jesuits MO was that they were here to save souls, but that cover story hid their real intent - enriching their Order.

The French Jesuits weren't so much miners as they were explorers and settlers. Their information helped French Nationals exploit the New World, with fur trade a major component. It seems more likely that any very early white mining in the higher latitudes could have been French rather than Spanish IMO. We know the French were likely mining certain areas of southern CO.

By the way, speaking of monumentation, the fur trappers did a great deal of routine caching of equipment and pelts during trapping season in the Rockies, all the way from the northern reaches down to the future Mexican border. It's my thought that many "Spanish treasure signs" found in remote locations were rock cairns and tree blazes used to mark trappers' caches up to about the 1830s, more or less.[/QUOT

The sign of which I speak are the classic Spanish mark. Daggers, crosses and gunsite directional monuments, unless of course you know of someone else that put them there. I'm open to any new information so please, enlighten me. I'm just telling you this from 30 years of seeing them from Sonora Mexico to Idaho and believing completely that they were made by Spanish. There is even the classic bird wings on a huge boulder, tilting in the direction that the old trail turns on a dime.

 

[Holyground]

Excellent post Holyground I have spent some time in the San Juan mountains on the same type of site you are explaining here on your post. I have been following a travel way heading south that they were using to move it along but it is a slow process i run at about 10,000 feet.This was an article that came from are local paper here I thought it was kind of interesting.

That is a really good article I want to spend some time on, Thank you. So the Strait of Anián came from a popular novel by a Spanish writer in the 1500's, I have the particulars of the book and the complete story in one of my crates of research. I just can't try to dig it out now! I have to wait until my wife is gone or she has a tizzy finding the office knee deep in papers, books and stuff I can't part with! Anyway, the author described the Strait of Anián and a tribe of very large women that he called Amazonian Women, if I recall correctly on all points. Cortez found the Gulf of California to be exactly as the book described and that is why they decided that California was an island for so many years, even when there was proof to the contrary. Cortez put together a fleet to go explore. I think it was in large part wishful thinking to call it an island for so long with fairly good maps to show it wasn't. When they finally did realize that it wasn't the Strait, The Pizzaro Brothers decided that it must be along a then unamed river, which they named the Amazon River, from the same book. That my friend is such an amazing story in and of itself I recommend everyone to read it. There is so much more but this shows the motivation to find these mythical Seven Cities of Cibola. A whole lot of time, money, and lives were wasted in the quest. That is why there were Parties of Spaniards so far north. They just couldn't let the dream/Myth die. We know they were in Utah, beyond a shadow of a doubt. I got off my razor one day, out in the middle of no-where, Idaho to take a pee. As I was in the process, I started looking at a group of boulders up the mountain side. Lo and behold, a big Turtle! It is a turtle, I've seen a few. It is a Trail Marker that denotes the trail in which they travelled from Utah to a navagable portion of the Snake River, then by boat into the Colombia and out to sea. It tells travellers that it is uphill, rough and rocky or Just Plain Slow Going for a while. The area is all of that! I have documents that tell of a red-headed Indian found by early Explorers near the mouth of the Columbia. When he was questioned as to why he looked so different, he told them that he was the great, great, grandson of a Spanish Sailor that was ship wrecked trying to enter the Columbia from the Pacific Ocean. That area has claimed many ships. The Spaniards were everywhere looking for the Seven Cities, driven by pure myth. They did find rich deposits in several places, that is a FACT. It was a lucky and necessary by-product of their search for Cibola.