SCARCE 1774 HISTORY OF THE BUCANIERS OF AMERICA: BUCCANEERS, PIRATES, FREE-BOOTERS

[Ditlihi]

I don't usually post over here, but need an opinion.

Does this inscription ring a bell with anyone else?





SCARCE 1774 HISTORY OF THE BUCANIERS OF AMERICA BUCCANEERS PIRATES FREE-BOOTERS | eBay

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[agflit]

Let me just throw a date out there....

Say...1686?

Interesting tho..I always understood Sir William to have spelled his name "Phips"..vs "Phipps".

I'm no hand writing expert..but seems VERY similar to his penmanship.

 

[agflit]

After a moment of thought..I just realized..I've been READING that account. Unless I miss my guess...thats Alexandre Exquemelin's "History of the Buccaneers of America".

It was first published in Dutch (1678), then translated into German (1679), Spanish (1681) and English (1684).

You may have something here....jmo.

Ag

 

[Honest Samuel]

Good luck in seeking leads in founding treasures. I am wondering how many treasure hunters have search for this treasure.

 

[Bum Luck]

William Phips (also Phipps, he may have not read well) of 1641 Conception fame, lived from 1651 to 1695 so it can't be his book.

The question is, did it belong to anyone from his family? And if so, why did they have the book? Because Uncle William (or whatever) went treasure hunting and became knighted and wealthy for it?

And the, the handwriting is similar. The early "s" disappeared later.



If so, it's quite the find.

 

[releventchair]

Hmmm.
The description leading to this previous add(https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ers-of&usg=AFQjCNFWvbND7d4w-fh18uFbbeaYu32vSw) stated that both volumes had GW Phipps signature on their title pages.
https://www.vialibri.net/years/items/1276647/1774-exquemelin-alexandre-olivier-the-history-of-the-bucaniers-of

 

[Ditlihi]

Let me just throw a date out there....

Say...1686?

Interesting tho..I always understood Sir William to have spelled his name "Phips"..vs "Phipps".

I'm no hand writing expert..but seems VERY similar to his penmanship.

Being that this is a Fifth Edition, 1774, it couldn't possibly be William's signature. But....

After some research, I have reason to believe it may have been inscribed to Sir William Phips by his adopted grandson, in Memoriam to his discovery of the Nuestra Señora de la Concepción.

Sir William had no children of his own, but adopted the son of his wife's sister, Spencer Bennett. Spencer took the name Phipps as his own and later became Lieutenant Governor of Massachusetts.

Spencer Phipps' only surviving son was Colonel David Phips. He became high sheriff of Middlesex, Cambridge, Massachusetts, and resided there until the Revolution in 1775 forced him to escape to England, after which his home and all of his personal property left behind were confiscated.

It's my belief, after researching in depth, that this set was possibly part of that estate.

I found a letter from David Phips, with very similar handwriting, in a collection at Harvard University. Notice the similarity of the " P "s I have circled in red....




Letter from David Phips to Colonel Jonathan Snelling regarding escort of Governor Hutchinson to Harvard Commencement, 1773 July 12 · Colonial North American Project at Harvard


It would stand to reason, since his father, Spencer Phipps, spelled his name with two P's...that he would inscribe his grandfather's name the same way.

 

[Ditlihi]

Hmmm.
The description leading to this previous add(https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...ers-of&usg=AFQjCNFWvbND7d4w-fh18uFbbeaYu32vSw) stated that both volumes had GW Phipps signature on their title pages.
https://www.vialibri.net/years/items/1276647/1774-exquemelin-alexandre-olivier-the-history-of-the-bucaniers-of

Could the G possibly refer to "Governor" of Massachusetts? Governor W. Phipps?

 

[releventchair]

Could the G possibly refer to "Governor" of Massachusetts? Governor W. Phipps?

Beats me.
I looked for Phipp's in Virginia to start , due to the E-Bay sellers location and found enough to not run them all down.
One got five years for sabotaging ...Another a land dispute . Others found advanced age...Then the Irishman and Spanish ship by which time I was wandering ...
Then found the book listed for sale.
Then figured,enough!

 

[Ditlihi]

 

[Ditlihi]

Notice the colon separating the initials and last name on the book inscription, the same mark is between the first and last name of the addressee on the letter. Hmmmmm....

Looks pretty solid to me.

 

[signal]

That is the way that Copperplate, and later Spencerian script "p" was taught, as far as the general shape where the bottom is not closed. I don't think those two hands you have shown are the same person. The way the P's are connected for example is radically different.

 

[Ditlihi]

I respectfully disagree. The added flourish at the top of the P can be explained by the difference in the flourish one uses in a signature vs. within the body of a letter. The open bottom of the P is not typical Spencerian script either. I would also point out that the bottom curve of the P where the script joins to the next letter, as well as the I, are identical on both....

 

[signal]

View attachment 1490987 View attachment 1490988

Notice the colon separating the initials and last name on the book inscription, the same mark is between the first and last name of the addressee on the letter. Hmmmmm....

Looks pretty solid to me.

That's not remarkable, as colons were used as "full stops" around 17th and 18th century......they were really introduced as intermediate stops, but precisely how they would be used was in a bit of flux for sometime, and colons between initials was common, as it is to use periods today for this purpose.

 

[signal]

I respectfully disagree. The added flourish at the top of the P can be explained by the difference in the flourish one uses in a signature vs. within the body of a letter. The open bottom of the P is not typical Spencerian script either.

Open bowl p is common in cyrillic, round, copperplate, spencerian as well as many old hands. You would typically find a more heightened ascender when the bowl is open. The signed book has this heightened ascender on the p, the other example does not. The formatting is off, in the first example the hand is writing VERY tight formatting, in the example the formatting is well spaced between words. We don't have much exemplars to go from as we just have the signature to compare with, but my own opinion is that those samples, although both written in old hand are not the same.

 

[Ditlihi]

Thank you for your opinion, Signal. Since I don't haunt the shipwreck forum here, and am unfamiliar with your field of expertise, perhaps you could provide some examples of these commonalities of which you speak. I'd be very interested in seeing some for comparison.

Thank you in advance

Dit

 

[signal]

Thank you for your opinion, Signal. Since I don't haunt the shipwreck forum here, and am unfamiliar with your field of expertise, perhaps you could provide some examples of these commonalities of which you speak. I'd be very interested in seeing some for comparison.

Thank you in advance

Dit

Copperplate (19th Century): Fontscape Home > Handmade > Handwriting > Formal > Copperplate
Spencerian (19th Century): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencerian_script (look at example image/letter)
Round (17th-18th Century): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_hand (look at example image/letter)

From: https://historyhub.history.gov/grou.../01/historic-handwriting-oddly-shaped-letters
"Another letter that gives me trouble is that lowercase "p." The style here is to have a much taller ascender, or vertical line, than we use on our letter "p"s nowadays. The round part (called the bowl) of the "p" may also be open at the bottom, making it look kind of like an "h.""

Throughout college, penmanship and history were always interests of mine. I learned a lot while at school in both. Penmanship is similar to treasure hunting for me, its just something I am fascinated with is all. I would not say I am an expert or anything like that, I am just very aware of the many aspects of it.

 

[Ditlihi]

Copperplate (19th Century): Fontscape Home > Handmade > Handwriting > Formal > Copperplate
Spencerian (19th Century): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spencerian_script (look at example image/letter)
Round (17th-18th Century): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Round_hand (look at example image/letter)

From: https://historyhub.history.gov/grou.../01/historic-handwriting-oddly-shaped-letters
"Another letter that gives me trouble is that lowercase "p." The style here is to have a much taller ascender, or vertical line, than we use on our letter "p"s nowadays. The round part (called the bowl) of the "p" may also be open at the bottom, making it look kind of like an "h.""

Throughout college, penmanship and history were always interests of mine. I learned a lot while at school in both. Penmanship is similar to treasure hunting for me, its just something I am fascinated with is all. I would not say I am an expert or anything like that, I am just very aware of the many aspects of it.

Well, from your examples we can certainly see they were of the same time period, but I still beg to disagree. The heightened ascender on the signature and the absence of same in the body of the letter just don't seem to be as convincing an argument to me in view of all the other similarities. But I do appreciate your knowledge of the subject.

Did you happen to find any examples of the use of colons to separate initials/names? I'm having difficulties in finding anything similar, which seems odd in view of your statement they were as common as the use of periods are today.


* Edited to add that upon further study of the letter, I noted he does use the heightened ascender on other examples within the body; specifically... " purpose " and " precisely ".

 

[releventchair]

Any open s"s in the letter similar to signiture?
I'll concede to Signal regarding writing nuances.
Meaning , I've no idea when s's began being closed.
Though I'm looking for similarity , rather than dating signiture; the s is all I see creating curiosity.

 

[signal]

Ditlihi, syntactic punctuation was first introduced into the English language by Ben Jonson, who signed his name "Ben:Jonson". He published the book that Phipps would have likely learned from, called "English Grammar", written in 1617, and published in 1640. The colon was then known as the "pause" or "two pricks". It was common for educated men to use it in their signatures in the mid 17th century to 18th century.