Cannons from the Mercedes

[Smithbrown]

Stunning cannonrecovered from the Mercedeshttp://algarvedailynews.com/news/12419-cannons-from-1804-spanish-wreck-recovered-off-the-algarve
http://www.laverdad.es/murcia/cartagena/expedicion-pecio-senora-20170829183039-nt.html

 

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[Smithbrown]

The court case was not to so with the nationality of the where the wreck lay- it was always Portuguese - but the nationality and status of the ship.

 

[Smithbrown]

That incident occurred after the coins had been raised from the wreck. The main battle took place in courtrooms, not on the high seas; https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/feb/01/treasure-trove-galleon-returned-spain

 

[enrada]

Too bad Spain isn't enthusiastic about recovering all the mercury they lost at sea, some of which has turned into methyl mercury. Spain doesn't seem to have any shame. I like the way they thought that Colombia was going to give them a call and ask them to come and recover the San Jose for them. How delusional can they be? Glad to see Pedro Barros is so interested in the cannons, now can you give back the coins to the company that spent all the work to find the shipwreck for you and recover the coins?

 

[Smithbrown]

I am quite happy to delete this thread since it is causing so much pain.

 

[seekerGH]

"According to archaeologist Pedro Barros, in this third, "and probably last campaign," the Spanish archaeologists were accompanied by a Portuguese team, because the frigate had sunk near the Cape of Santa Maria, off the Algarve, within the Portuguese Exclusive Economic Zone.

Portugal could claim the artefacts but as Spain has spent so much time and effort keeping the Americans at bay, Portuguese archaeologists say that "the most important thing is that the pieces have been removed by scientific means and are safeguarded as public assets, instead of being in the hands of a private company for commercial purposes."

The court case was not to so with the nationality of the where the wreck lay- it was always Portuguese

According to the Admiralty Arrest Odyssey filed, it swore it was in international waters.
While it was certainly researched and detailed that is was in Port waters, Odyssey denied that fact to the end. (along with identification, or that remnants of a ship remained)

Didn't Spain board OM for working a wreck within their waters?

(there is no OM) No, Spain detained the Ocean Alert. (OA) It was supposed to be working the Sussex, and news splashed they had recovered the Sussex, or Mercedes, or the Merchant Royal, as the press relaese was very vaque, and let the associated 'news' agencies run with a story. Odyssey had asked Spain for permission to work the Merc, and was denied.



Later in the adventure, Spain also detained the Ocean Explorer. (OE) That was rather humurous, Stemm splashed the press, and claimed to be sailing the OE out of Gib, daring the Spanish to arrest him, yet the coward left just before the sail, leaving the lawyer, Capt Vorus (jailed), and the crew to be detained!



The other vessel that Odyssey HAD, the Ocean Explorer, was detained, fined, and recovery confiscated in Cyprus waters for antiquities violations.

Or when Spain boarded OM they were not within Spanish waters, thus they lacked jurisdiction?

Spain detained the OA in waters that they claim as theirs, and are disputed with Gibraltar. The Brits did not come to Odysseys defense.

Everyone was so upset when Spain 'stole' the recovery in Court. Now you are beginning to see the rest of the story. Spain did a very extensive archeological survey of the wrecksite, where they claimed Odyssey used dredges to recover the coins. This investigation is ongoing in the Spanish Courts, subject to the further visits.

Spain, for the adventure, has never divilged the location, but it seems they forgot to tell the Portuguese archies.

It is good to see that finally, the Portuguese have decided to recover artifacts from the wrecksite (and cannon!) cooperating with the Spanish, and Mexican Dept of Culture.

In the works have participated technicians of the Ministries of Culture of Portugal and of Mexico. For Spain, international collaboration on the protection of underwater heritage is an example of good practice.

This is the third campaign made to the wreck, sunk in 1804 and located more than 1,130 meters deep in Atlantic waters. The Ministry of Culture has participated, in collaboration with the Ministry of Economy - through the Higher Council of Scientific Research (CSIC) and the Spanish Oceanographic Institute (IEO) - and the Ministry of Defense, through the Spanish Navy.

 

[Salvor6]

I am quite happy to delete this thread since it is causing so much pain.

Smithbrown if you want to delete your thread you better hurry. After 3 days your option to delete is void.

 

[huntsman53]

Smithbrown if you want to delete your thread you better hurry. After 3 days your option to delete is void.

Yeah, no need to open up old wounds and make Spain look like the Angels they aren't! After the shenanigans of the Columbian Government and others, they may find it very difficult in the future to find a Treasure Salvor Company that is willing to trust and work with them in finding or even salvaging any treasure laden shipwrecks they have in their' waters. It would likely take ironclad and unbreakable contracts with severe penalties and considerable compensation for any Treasure Salvors to even consider working with them and many other countries in the future. At least that is they way I see it!


Frank

 

[seekerGH]

I am quite happy to delete this thread since it is causing so much pain.

I thought you were being facitious, given the recent removal of Confederate items for 'causing so much pain'

After the shenanigans of the Columbian Government and others, they may find it very difficult in the future to find a Treasure Salvor Company that is willing to trust and work with them in finding or even salvaging any treasure laden shipwrecks they have in their' waters.

The list of groups willing to do this is long and distinquished! Colombia (not Columbia) has them lining up.

Look how many applied to work the Central America while it still had an Admiralty Arrest on it! Only one, was dumb enough to self fund the recovery from proceeds. After spending $7 million, beginning in April 2014, has not been paid almost 4 years later. The rights to the recovery werent even decided until September of 2016! No warning bells there!

 

[Smithbrown]

I live in Yorkshire; we don't have many Confederate statues- we do have Queen Victoria and the Black Prince.

 

[trdking]

594,000 COINS! No wait 419,000 coins No Wait 354,000 coins! Ah Heck just take your lousy 175,000 coins

 

[seekerGH]

I know! While Odyssey claimed a recovery of 17 tons, it included a ton of seawater! (dont tell investors)

Now, about the rest of the recovery.

 

[Au_Dreamers]

View attachment 1491106

I've been waiting for real serious situations to get under control.....

What an abhorrent meme of Mr. Stemm.

To suggest he would call archeologists terrorists is way beyond forum banter!

Oddly it was archeologists that called private sector salvors terrorists with our professional work being the equivalent of what the terrorists in the middle east were doing to historical monuments in a publication of theirs.

 

[Tom_Restorer]

odyssey case

I could puke blood every time I hear again about this story.
Seems the spaniards and also the archaeologists has completely lost their sense for reality.... "THEIR" GOLD and SILVER... it is nothing else looted Blood money and many innocent conquered and enslaved people died for it in the past! And as a gift for the entire mankind this horny little imperialists brought back syphillis to the rest of the world and killed some other millions of innocent people, but thats an other story of this globalism were only the elites makes profit from...
A normal person should try such a claim on the spanish goverment after he has mass murdert people to get their gold... He would get directly a bullet between his eyes or would be sented into a psychatric hospital include forced medication!
And the archeologists are the best.... Where are they when every single day the wrecks get destroyed and scattered everywere by ground and deep fishing nets or by the 6 ton heavy forks the shell fishers use tro rip the the complete sea bed open?? They are not interested at all and don´t care. But if someone finds gold or silver (for maritime archaeologist NOTHING of real historical and informational value btw!) they go complete crazy. They just want it to put their own names into the annals of history and than this stuff goes into deep vaults an no one will ever see it again until it is may rotted. Simply importand is THEY or the state have their hands on it and not a private company who may sell a part to collectors and put the main pile in a museum to see by everyone like the atocha museum, whydah museum or the queen annes revange exhibition. All Hypocrites....
The fish ever stinks from the head! Do you smell it ?!
Shame on spain!
And shame on the archaeologists who can find all and much better historical informations about a ship, the cargo and also the crew and captain in the national archives. and THIS by the way written in blood of the subjugated !


I would be real happy if someone thinks different about the historical value of the (in most cases) few REMAINS of a shipwreck and who has the balls to start a discussion!!
Destruction mode is turned on :-) :-) :-)

 

[Vox veritas]

Dear friends, rotten trash late or early rises afloat. It stinks too much to hide it!

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Tom_restorer we have rules on language, please follow them.

Sent from my P008 using Tapatalk

 

[Vox veritas]

I could puke blood every time I hear again about this story.
Seems the spaniards and also the archaeologists has completely lost their sense for reality.... "THEIR" GOLD and SILVER... it is nothing else looted Blood money and many innocent conquered and enslaved people died for it in the past! And as a gift for the entire mankind this horny little imperialists brought back syphillis to the rest of the world and killed some other millions of innocent people, but thats an other story of this globalism were only the elites makes profit from...
A normal person should try such a claim on the spanish goverment after he has mass murdert people to get their gold... He would get directly a bullet between his eyes or would be sented into a psychatric hospital include forced medication!
And the archeologists are the best.... Where are they when every single day the wrecks get destroyed and scattered everywere by ground and deep fishing nets or by the 6 ton heavy forks the shell fishers use tro rip the the complete sea bed open?? They are not interested at all and don´t care. But if someone finds gold or silver (for maritime archaeologist NOTHING of real historical and informational value btw!) they go complete crazy. They just want it to put their own names into the annals of history and than this stuff goes into deep vaults an no one will ever see it again until it is may rotted. Simply importand is THEY or the state have their hands on it and not a private company who may sell a part to collectors and put the main pile in a museum to see by everyone like the atocha museum, whydah museum or the queen annes revange exhibition. All Hypocrites....
The fish ever stinks from the head! Do you smell it ?!
Shame on spain!
And shame on the archaeologists who can find all and much better historical informations about a ship, the cargo and also the crew and captain in the national archives. and THIS by the way written in blood of the subjugated !


I would be real happy if someone thinks different about the historical value of the (in most cases) few REMAINS of a shipwreck and who has the balls to start a discussion!!
Destruction mode is turned on :-) :-) :-)

Tom, history has taught us that all the conquerors have massacred, plundered and robbed. This has happened since the world is world. The Inca did, the Aztec, etc.etc.
The gold and silver of the Indies stained the hands of blood of all Europe and its bankers and merchants.

 

[Salvor6]

Tom, history has taught us that all the conquerors have massacred, plundered and robbed. This has happened since the world is world. The Inca did, the Aztec, etc.etc.
The gold and silver of the Indies stained the hands of blood of all Europe and its bankers and merchants.

Vox you are right, the English and Dutch have plundered and killed with their superior fire power but what Tom is trying to point out is that they don't have the right to confiscate what private finders/keepers have found on their own, with their own money, when the archies are doing nothing to recover this history.

 

[Tom_Restorer]

Tom_restorer we have rules on language, please follow them.

Sent from my P008 using Tapatalk

No problem! If you can tell me more specific what you mean in my text.

 

[Tom_Restorer]

Vox you are right, the English and Dutch have plundered and killed with their superior fire power but what Tom is trying to point out is that they don't have the right to confiscate what private finders/keepers have found on their own, with their own money, when the archies are doing nothing to recover this history.

Exactly! PLUS, that it is NOT the spaniards money at all!