Sno ta hay - the pros and cons - Toyopa and the Adams

[Springfield]

Jack,

In doing my research into the Lost Adams Diggings, I talked with a Native American linguistics expert about the phrase "Sno Ta Hay." She said there is no meaning of this phrase in any Southwestern Indian dialect, past or present. Just something to consider. Have you found anything different from other linguistics experts?

PM

That's quite an all-encompassing and final conclusion from a single source. She may be correct, but I wouldn't necessarily hang my hat on it. It seems that the alleged interpretation of this term ("just lying there") comes from anecdotal Apache sources. It would certainly be a daunting task to completely rule out a phrase presumably used several generations ago by a tribe known to have had a number of different dialects among the bands.

I guess your point is that if this woman's conclusions are true, then all versions of the LAD legend containing the phase Sno Ta Hay are therefore invalid. That seems to be dangerous logic for two reasons: 1) The woman's conclusions may not be true; 2) If they are true, then you risk ignoring otherwise valid information in the same version of the story. Kind of like throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

 

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[cactusjumper]

Peterm,

Your comments are something I have been saying for quite some time now. Nino Cochise's book, along with the mine, seems to be a work of fiction by a non-Apache writer. That does not mean the mine did not (or did) exist, but it certainly makes it suspect.

Joe Ribaudo
___________________________________________________________________________

Jack,

Sorry I took this thread off topic.

I don't believe Sno-Ta-Hae is from any of the Apache dialects. Just as important, IMHO, is the name: Pa-Gotzin-Kay. It is not an Apache place name. Anyone wanting to learn about how the Apache named places, should read Keith Basso's "Wisdom Sits in Places".

Sno-Ta-Hae is a mine, according to Nino. The gold was not just lying there, they dug for it. The story of the Apache having a gold mine, actually goes back to Cochise and his sons. The mine was in New Mexico.

Nino claims he was elected chief of his tribe when he was fourteen years old. At the same time, another youngster was elected subchief. While his book is a fun work of historical fiction, it's difficult to accept it as source material. Anyone who has done any research on the Apache will find themselves laughing many times as they read Nino's historical novel.

None of that means the mine is not based in fact. My guess would be that the story came from Cochise's mine in New Mexico.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Springfield]

CJ, "Sno Ta Hay" appeared in published LAD versions far prior to the advent of Nino and his stories. As you've mentioned elsewhere, he could just as easily have read about Sno Ta Hay as experienced it.

 

[Oroblanco]

Just want to add that according to the Apaches, the name Sno-ta-hay is not Apache but Navajo, and the lands were Navajo but frequented by Apaches.
Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

Springfield,

I see that you're a man who believes what he reads in books and magazine articles. Unfortunately, I do not have that luxury. I am a researcher and must deal with facts. If you chose not to believe the linguistics expert I consulted, why not consult one on your own before you discount the one I used. I sincerely doubt that your linguistics credentials are better than hers considering that she is a Native American. Bet you can't guess what tribe! Perhaps you are afraid to do so in that another expert will agree with her and burst your bubble. Such is life.

Good luck with your book reading.

PM

Pete, I'm surprised you have this opinion of me. After all, my stance on the disinformation promulgated in TH books, magazines and internet sites has been amply and unmistakenly demonstrated in many posts on this forum site and others for the past decade at least. An accomplished researcher such as yourself usually doesn't make such rash statements without knowing the facts. I'll forgive the transgression.

Concerning the professional expert, carefully reread post #81 above. A truth seeker rarely places all his eggs in a single basket. Bubble? I have no dog in this fight - only a desire to satisfy my curiosity about the truth (if any) about the LAD. All options are open as far as I'm concerned.

Both in this thread and in http://forum.treasurenet.com/index.php/topic,143823.0.html, you seem to have staked out a bubble of your own. Are you willing to provide specific information re the LAD for us to consider? I guess if you're writing a book you'll have an excuse to dummy up. If not, I for one am quite interested in hearing your theory.

 

[Springfield]

Just reread some of the other comments and saw a part referring to the Indians digging for the gold. It's my understanding that Indian braves were warriors and would never "dig" for gold. The gold they accumulated was surface gold that all they had to do was bend down and pick it up. If they had a mine, it was probably an old Spanish mine with the gold already exposed or laying about. Does anyone have any Native American documents that specify how they accumulated their gold? Would like to know about this for sure out of curiosity. Thanks.

PM

Very good question and an interesting subject that has been largely ignored. I suspect the Apache and other tribes had (have) more knowledge about gold mining than most people think, possibly dating back to the first white wave to engulf them as early as the 16th century. I doubt you'll find 'Native American' documents on the subject, but there are hints here and there in some of the earlier 19th century Anglo journals. Anything 'Pre-Adams' would of course be untainted by the LAD legend.

One of the most intriguing accounts I've run across appears in The Marvellous Country, or, Three years in Arizona and New Mexico, written by Samuel Cozzens describing his adventures in the American Southwest in the late 1850's. The book is available hardcopy and also, I believe, in an online version. Lots of good stuff in there about NM/AZ before much white settlement occured, including considerable material on the Apaches, who Cozzens had very little regard for even though he had significent direct contact with both Cochise and Mangas Coloradas. There is mention of the 'secret Apache gold mine' somewhere in the Gila headwaters area. Not a TH book by any means, but some good stuff for researchers and history/Apache buffs.

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Just want to add that according to the Apaches, the name Sno-ta-hay is not Apache but Navajo, and the lands were Navajo but frequented by Apaches."

As I have said, I don't believe the name is Apache.........or Navajo. Actually, I am sure it's not Apache. If I really wanted to know if it's Navajo, which I seriously doubt, I would probably want to ask someone who speaks the Navajo language.

This stuff has been around for quite awhile, so I assume it's already been done. One can guess as to why we haven't heard the results of that query.

If someone knows the answer, maybe they will come forward with the correct tribal language it belongs to. I have asked for that before, and expect we will receive the same response.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Oroblanco]

HOLA amigos,

Cactusjumper wrote:

I have said, I don't believe the name is Apache.........or Navajo. Actually, I am sure it's not Apache. If I really wanted to know if it's Navajo, which I seriously doubt, I would probably want to ask someone who speaks the Navajo language.

This stuff has been around for quite awhile, so I assume it's already been done. One can guess as to why we haven't heard the results of that query.

If someone knows the answer, maybe they will come forward with the correct tribal language it belongs to. I have asked for that before, and expect we will receive the same response.

Well Joe, then I must presume that you do NOT believe the reported words of Apache chief Nana, for Nana told Adams the canyon was called Sno-Ta-Hay by the Tchihene people, and the Tchihene people are a group of Navajos. I mentioned this earlier but I had a Navajo friend for years, and I asked him about the name Sno-ta-hay, which I think I also told you about his answer. So you are sure free to disbelieve Nana about the source of the name, but I respectfully disagree on this point. Perhaps someone will step forward with another tribe to propose as the originators of the name?

Oroblanco

 

[Springfield]

... What I do have is 3 expeditions, 3 different routes, 3 different documents, all of the landmarks mentioned in each document, and 1 descriptive canyon (and maybe, I say, "maybe," a little something from the canyon).

I do not ask for further information on the LAD from other researchers. I merely attempted to post a helping hand for others.

As for the documents, I would be surprised if everyone looking for the LAD has not at one time or another come across these documents and failed to recognize their value and how they fit into the overall picture. Many writers used these documents for their stories, but made the mistake of combining two of the three into one story thinking they were about the same expedition.....

Interesting and logical observation about treasure stories and why they become unreliable as time goes by. Your post begs the obvious question: which three documents?

 

[cactusjumper]

Roy,

"Well Joe, then I must presume that you do NOT believe the reported words of Apache chief Nana, for Nana told Adams the canyon was called Sno-Ta-Hay by the Tchihene people, and the Tchihene people are a group of Navajos. I mentioned this earlier but I had a Navajo friend for years, and I asked him about the name Sno-ta-hay, which I think I also told you about his answer. So you are sure free to disbelieve Nana about the source of the name, but I respectfully disagree on this point. Perhaps someone will step forward with another tribe to propose as the originators of the name?"

Since no one is alive who heard the words of Nana, I feel safe in having some scepticism concerning any quotes from private conversations he may have had with others. Beyond that, the Red Paint People lived in Southwest New Mexico. I don't know where "Tchihene" came from, but the Chihene Apache are fairly well known for such a mistake to make it to print.

I don't disagree with or agree with you. Until a Navajo speaker tells me that Sno-Ta-Hay is a Navajo name, I will go with what little I do know.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Sonoita-Bob]

Springfield:

I suspect that the 1864 document PeterM is referring to here and in his posts 19 & 23 under the New Mexico topic "Lost Adams" may be one you and I have discussed previously on this forum, that being the Col. Oscar Brown Military Expedition report of Oct 1- Nov 27, 1864 as published in the War of the Rebellion Series. It was reported there that the troopers found good quality placer gold in one of the canyons of the San Francisco River and that the route was clearly delineated. Coincidently, the same guide, one Felippe Gonzales, also had guided Capt. E.D. Shirland to the same spot previously (1862 ?). Years ago I searched for Shirland's report, but could not locate it. As Peter had stated, the documents he is talking about are 1st person accounts as are the above referenced reports. Now, as to the 3rd document from the early 1870's, I have no clue, unless Peter is referring to the "Miner" exepedition of 1871 and the Will Rose tie-in. But then, this was pretty far removed from the area in question.

Peter:

Maybe you could give us a hint if we're on the right track and point us in the right direction as to what this document could be.

Respectfully,
Sonoita Bob

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hi BOB: Is you is or isn't you in Sonoita? Maybe on my next trip north we might get together at a half way point snd drink coffee (at your expense heheheh) and BS.. As a matter of fact, we should have a meeting of the Ariz unmentionables. say in Tucson as a half way point? Perhaps in Jan?

Don Jose de La MAacha

p.s. might even talk of the indian loot hidden in one of the side canyons south west of Sonoita

 

[Springfield]

Springfield:

I suspect that the 1864 document PeterM is referring to here and in his posts 19 & 23 under the New Mexico topic "Lost Adams" may be one you and I have discussed previously on this forum, that being the Col. Oscar Brown Military Expedition report of Oct 1- Nov 27, 1864 as published in the War of the Rebellion Series. It was reported there that the troopers found good quality placer gold in one of the canyons of the San Francisco River and that the route was clearly delineated. Coincidently, the same guide, one Felippe Gonzales, also had guided Capt. E.D. Shirland to the same spot previously (1862 ?). Years ago I searched for Shirland's report, but could not locate it. As Peter had stated, the documents he is talking about are 1st person accounts as are the above referenced reports. Now, as to the 3rd document from the early 1870's, I have no clue, unless Peter is referring to the "Miner" exepedition of 1871 and the Will Rose tie-in. But then, this was pretty far removed from the area in question.

Peter:

Maybe you could give us a hint if we're on the right track and point us in the right direction as to what this document could be.

Respectfully,
Sonoita Bob

Hi Bob,
I suspected something along the same lines, but would have liked to have gotten confirmation. I wonder if Peter is merely leg-pulling.

Incidentally, next time I talk with you I'll fill you in on the search/rescue effort this summer on the San Francisco River for the LAD group and their target. Looks intriguing on the maps and aerial photos (really rough terrain upstream from the above-referenced military report).

 

[Sonoita-Bob]

Don Jose:

Yes, Sonoita - "place where corn grows" and history is everywhere.

Would be pleased to toast a few tall tales with you on your next trip. Am retired so I am foot loose.

I am curious about your remark -"should have a meeting of the Ariz unmentionables". I have a couple of friends in Tucson who, because of some past exploits (discoveries) are considered unmentionables. Please elaborate. Keep me posted when you're traveling North.

Springfield:

Should have guessed you remembered the Col. Brown info and related its importance to a possible LAD location. Very interested in hearing about the LAD seekers. Jensen group? Haven't heard a word about it, spent the summer in the Black hills (Sundance, WY) and was out of touch. Talk to you soon.

Respectfully,
Sonoita Bob

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Hola Sonoita: Unmentionables are treasure hunters according to the Archologists. K, A date.

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[filemaker01]

http://lovefishn.tripod.com/lostadamsdiggings.html

Enjoy! : ) You've all been very kind. I also posted a thread in 2010 when I disocvered the location and especially the WHY, it's been great.

Coming Soon: snotahaycanyon.com cTR Enjoy! : )

Phil

 

[lilorphanannie]

i have a couple of inputs about the area call sno-tah-he. i had a close friend who spent a lot of time searching for this lost mine in the 1980's. he was able to document several rumors that he was on the right trail, no pun intended. one thing that he was able to confirm there was in fact a dr martinez on record in the village of bacerac sonora ,which the apaches trusted for medical attention. they would leave the town and follow a gulch west for hours slowly climbing up into the sierra. if you go to bacerac and can find some old cowboys in the plaza , im pretty sure you'll find someone who knows the trail up to the mesa known as pa gotzin kay. on a modern topo map this will take you to the ejido san diego. which is located in the sierra el tigre. there you should be able to find some old timers that know something about the area. just to the north in this sierra is the famous el tigre mine, in english known as the lucky tiger mine ,orginally owned and operated by colonel green. he is credited by some historians for giving us the word gringo. as the mexican miners would shout in revolt. between the pa gotzin kay mesa and the el tigre mine is a small high grade rotten quartz free milling gold dig, called el oso. i tend to think that would be the most logical choice for the sno -tah-he mine. in mexican history there is also on record of a massacre of gold miners at bacerac ,by the renegade apaches, the possee that pursued them also put them on the very same narrow canyon trail up into the sierra el tigre. lastly ,several years ago there was a movie made entitled geronimo. a fellow geologist friend of mine ,from stanford univ .was hired by movie people researching history for the movie to take them up into the sierra el tigre to try to find pa gotzin kay. he wrote me in a letter that they had obtained heretofor unpublished information that should take them to the stronghold. based on markers in that narrow canyon. while i was in the plaza of huachinera talking to the old men there ,one told me of a cave, east of town with boxes and rifles all covered with a flag, i asked him if he could draw the flag, he promptly drew a nearly exact rendering of the us confederate flag. as i was working for an mining company i wasnt free to go . there is also a mine in an isolated canyon the locals call tayopa. caved in .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Exscellent post lil orphan Annie. lot's of interesting data to think about.

Don Jose de La Mancha