So why this mountain?

[Dr. Syn]

Been reading on this for some time now and it came to me. Why this mountain, and why is it that multiple civilizations used it for the same thing and apparently never removed it until Doc and/or the Military, or whomever did so?

Granted my gray matter is straw, but just in continental US, why did they all go to such effort and such a location to hide the goods.
What led them to such a place, a place that they would have traveled so many miles from the coasts to get to. And how the heck did so many civilizations do so, how did the next ones find out about it, deposit their goodies and not take what was already there?

Can't say it's because the minerals were there, they were just as abundant other places, and many were not in this area.
Yet all this stuff came to be in one spot in the middle of nowhere, and seems like everybody and nobody knew about it.

From what I've read and heard, we're talking Phoenicians, Incas, Aztec, Apache, Templers, Spanish, French, Alien, just to name a few.
And they all knew about this one place in the middle of nowhere that no one else did. Who told em? I mean that many folks and the secret never got out?

All that stuff going into a hole in the hill. Not like one guy snuck up there in the middle of the night to do so. It would have taken a lot of people/animals to transport. And no one noticed? I don't remember, easy for me, hearing native stories of caravans loaded to the gills, just showing up and going up the mountain, and then coming back empty. Are there such? Or other documentation of such?
This would not have been like a lets take a weekend trip to the beach. It would have taken planning, locating of animals, rounding up security, food and WATER, handlers, servants, guides, slaves, and so on. That takes time, and it ain't all done in someone's head. Least not mine. It would be written out, notices sent to some superiors of said plans/location/times. Way too much going on for someone not to notice it and write about it.

Yeah I know, it's in the middle of nowhere, but even if they weren't spotted there, they had to originate somewhere, and pass places en route. And if they did eventually return for it, they would be just as likely to be seen then. Not like you can hide that much stuff on a couple of burros or under your sombrero. Caravans to the nearest waterway, then loaded on rafts/boats/ships, then sent to?


And if it did exist, and say the old government got it, what could you do? Our government? Are you kidding me, if they wanted to you'd have an accident, a fatal one, long before you could do anything at all about it. Not like they would ever come clean about it and return it. And who would they return it to? Who would decide that? Can't imagine how many hands would be out looking for their share of it.

See this is what happens when you are just hanging out in the middle of a field, nothing to do, sun scorching your brain.

 

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[cactusjumper]

DS,

Interesting post. I have long suspected that it was once Aztlan and surrounded by water. If that is the case, the Aztec may have migrated to Mexico along the Gila River.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Doc Syn,a perfect description of Jesuit operations.

 

[cactusjumper]

As the Aztec's moved west along the Gila River, they would stop/settle and build up villages and stores. When the next group of Aztec reached them they would supply them with what they needed to continue west along the river. When that group reached the end of their stores, they would stop and repeat the process. It took generations for the Aztec to reach the Valley Of Mexico.

At one time the Gila was a vibrant living river, teaming with fish and all of the flora and fauna that would live in such an environment. The Aztec would take advantage of it all.

Take care,

Joe

 

[Not Peralta]

Dr.Syn.Have some America's water ways were used for a lot of different reasons. at one time the Rio Grande would have been navigable to the caballo's, making any thing around there perfect for storage for future
transportation elsewhere , the Jesuits also made plenty of deals with local natives no matter were they were, especially what ever the Jesuits needed at the time,like good info on storage places, security
in the area,and many other things.NP

 

[UncleMatt]

From what I've read and heard, we're talking Phoenicians, Incas, Aztec, Apache, Templers, Spanish, French, Alien, just to name a few.
And they all knew about this one place in the middle of nowhere that no one else did. Who told em? I mean that many folks and the secret never got out?

No matter what you hear, I doubt many of the entities on your list had anything to do with the cache at Victorio Peak. I think you can immediately rule out Phoenicians, Aztecs, Incas, Templars, Space aliens, etc. I wouldn't rule out the Spanish, Jesuits, Apaches, or rogue agents of any of those. Its also possible bandits amassed it there from mule trains they stole from.

 

[cactusjumper]

Dr.Syn.Have some America's water ways were used for a lot of different reasons. at one time the Rio Grande would have been navigable to the caballo's, making any thing around there perfect for storage for future
transportation elsewhere , the Jesuits also made plenty of deals with local natives no matter were they were, especially what ever the Jesuits needed at the time,like good info on storage places, security
in the area,and many other things.NP

NP,

The Gila is a pitiful shadow of what it once was.

Take care,

Joe

 

[treasminder2]

What makes a place HOT , is location , location , LOCATION !

and for stashing stuff , ya just can't beat a good deep cavern amongst faults . the place was one of those places .

just too good to be true ,,, right ?

Think about digging a Vault in that soil ,,,, now think , There's a cave already dug by nature , why bother
put the shovels and picks away .

Now think ,,,, The Entities aboard UFO's are Telepathic ,,,, they can influence peoples minds ,,, and cause
people to hide goodies in the same holes as everyone else .

 

[Not Peralta]

Roger,I remember a local story about the Lizard people and the apache.the Lizard people actually were the ones to show the apache their under world.NP

 

[Dr. Syn]

Thank you all Gentlemen, something that had slipped past me was the environmental changes since way back when.

If you wouldn't mind indulging me, going with we'll say the Jesuits. Whether it was all theirs, or they found someone's stash while looking for a place to hide their stuff, and even if they didn't let on fully to the Church/King, the Church/King would have known that they hadn't got everything to be gotten. And greed can be a forceful thing. The King, was only getting his little cut of what was found and shipped. We know there were records of such, what was shipped and the King getting his Royal Fifth of it. So the the King finds out the Church pulled it's folks or some met with some other fate. And then there's all this stash just sitting there. And the King did nothing to get it? Why not send a force to retrieve it? That greed thing again.

Weren't these the same folks who were out there tramping all over the natives in search of treasure? And they didn't even make an effort to find the mother load?

As for other possibilities, bandits, from Doc's description of what was in there, those bandits would have had to have nailed just about every type of mule train going. I mean Doc was describing some big piles of processed bars among what he saw. Not little 1 kilo bars, some big ones. So they would have had bodies laying everywhere from all those hijacked loads. Wouldn't that lead to the next train looking for trouble when the previous didn't make it?

The Apache? Again just from Doc's description, if the Indians were raiding and hiding the stuff, would they have taken the time to stack it neatly in there. May be me, but if they were doing so to get rid of it, I would think they would have just dumped it in there.

That may be part of my questioning it, Doc's description. If it was as told, this to me would indicate quite a bit or organization.
It would take that to gather, smelt, produce, stack and store that much, not to mention time. That is something either a civilization bent on this, or group with the backing to do so would do. And organized folks keep records, and they are anal about it.

So if it was the former, what happened to those records? Lost to time? If it was the latter, those records are somewhere, and it begs the question, why didn't they come for it?

Sorry for the long winded bit, but to me there are too many things that don't add up. Not like I'll ever get out there looking for it, and I'm not trying to stop anyone else from looking for it. Or finding out what really happened.

Carry on, I really enjoy all the posts and info you all so freely give.

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Doc, those files do exist, but in the need to know 'Jesuit' files in Rome. Those were holding depositories for the irregular Jesuit ships that would anchor clandestinely in the vicinity of Matamoros.

 

[Oroblanco]

Don Jose el Tropical Tramp, not to pick a bone but remember our friend Amy found no records in the Jesuit archives. Considering that in other cases, like the French encountered with a Jesuit running his own virtual "empire" in the Caribbean islands, or the Jesuit 'state' of Paraguay/Uruguay and parts of what are today Brazil, it looks like there was less control from the top than we are supposed to believe, and considerably more 'independent' type operations going on, without much knowledge or approval from Rome. Unless we want to float the idea that Rome was fine with the idea of the Jesuits betraying the whole of Spanish America to the Dutch, and an important island off Chile to the English, which seems doubtful at best since these countries were very non-Catholic. Also, look at the problems Rome had in trying to put a stop to the "Chinese rites" that the Jesuits had innovated in China, and some of the Jesuit operations in India. Not only did the Jesuits in those remote places refuse to obey, and then delay, obfuscate and attempt to side-step the orders from Rome, but they continued to do so after repeated orders and even the sending of envoys to enforce them.

It is interesting to consider the possibilities of all the different theories like Phoenicians, Egyptians, Templars, etc but not much to authenticate those links. IMHO the whole of that treasure was put in place at one time, by one entity, whom then was not able to retrieve it. This limits the possible candidates, and the more modern artifacts in the mix point to a time period that post-dates the Aztecs and everything more ancient than them. In contrast, if it were cached by a series of 'deposits' this would have greatly increased the odds of encountering hostile Indians, robbers, military forces (patrols) etc and also the chance of making a clear trail right to it just by the repeated travel. Noss never mentioned following any 'road' to the cave entrance, as far as I know the only clue was more like a deer path. If the treasure were put in the caverns in one shot, the trail would fall into disuse and could easily look like a deer path after a century.

Please do continue,
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Oro, my estemed researcher, Amy researched the 'Vatican ' files, not the ''need to know'' Jesuit ones, with zero results. The Jesuits cleaned out any references to Tayopa, yet it exists, as you well know.

No others were in position, or able, to form the deposits, and the timing and location were correct to carry out the clandestine operation.

Passame the coffee.

P.S. Np's lil map from the Noss papers sorta clinched it

 

[Oroblanco]

I am not at all sure there are "need to know" files with the records of Tayopa or any other mining or illicit activities the Jesuits were involved in. There were no records of the silver mines that are a matter of record! That study (The Wealth of the Jesuits in Mexico 1767) done by a Catholic university, found a number of mines that were owned and operated by the Jesuits, OPENLY, and yet there were NO records of any of them found by Amy. What does that tell you?

I believe that kind of records never got to Rome. They would be stored at the various Jesuit "colleges" which were hardly schools of learning, more like administration centers or at the missions themselves. Even there, when the Spanish authorities searched their records, no mention of the KNOWN mines were found! How could they have owned and operated a number of mines, openly, and yet there is NO record of them even in the local 'college' that administered each district? What I get is that they were not keeping much in the way of written records, where their illicit wealth accumulation was concerned. That Tayopa inventory, and the Molina document, are the only two examples I know of that were ever found, except for the letter found with a treasure in Brazil which was more like a great cover and excuse for the wealth in case they got caught with it.

How many old stories can you find, where an earlier treasure hunter found documents at a Jesuit mission that then provided enough information for that treasure hunter to locate a mine? I can think of a half dozen offhand, yet today the records (now available to the public via the Mission 2000 database) have NO records of any mines or treasures, danged few wills or probates of properties for that matter even though it is a certainty that people died and the missions held the wills. In other words because we are latecomers (relatively speaking) the early bird treasure hunters got all or nearly all of the kinds of records we could use today to prove the mines and wealth.

Just my opinion but those kinds of maps, like NP's you referred to, were intended to be the way the Jesuits could retrieve their hidden wealth and perhaps re-open their mines, but this method did not work. The Jesuits were suppressed for so long, that the men who knew how to use the maps had died or simply became too old to act, by the time the Jesuits were allowed to revive. Hence nearly all of their mines and hidden wealth became lost to them. Why else do you suppose that you ran into a Jesuit so interested in your Tayopa, or that we should have a regular parade of Jesuits here on a treasure forum, always trying to discourage everyone from searching?

Please do continue, and maybe your next coffee will be the genuine Arbuckles Ariola, if we can get together again some time around a campfire.
Oroblanco

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

The last Arbuckles coffee I had was at a summer camp where i worked as the camp steward - we had old retired Navy cooks. I was 16 and supposed to run the dining hall, which included the cooks _ yeah.

 

[Hitndahed]

Maybe,,,just MAYBE this is what they were really looking for.

https://dailyoddsandends.wordpress....ure-leon-trabucos-gold-farmington-new-mexico/

Hrmmmmm ?

Hit

 

[treasminder2]

Nope, not what it was . That was confiscated by the U.S. Treasury Department .
it was just never revealed publicly .

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

WELL ??

 

[whiskeyrat]

Nope, not what it was . That was confiscated by the U.S. Treasury Department .
it was just never revealed publicly .

How did treasury find it?

 

[Not Peralta]

Just like they always do, someone told them about it,and pointed them in the right direction.NP