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Some Notes Re: Construction of the Money Pit

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Got curious as to how much weight a level in the MP could support to get an upper limit of the amount of treasure it could hold. If my numbers are correct ...
1. A single level DID hold about 38,500 lbs of
dirt.
2. This is about 60% of catastrophic failure,
which means ANY PLATFORM THAT FAILED
WOULD FAIL ALL PLATFORMS BELOW IT.

So the size of the logs in the platforms, and the size of the hole, and the distance between platforms just happened to be matched to make perfect engineering.

Having trouble believing someone worked out this detail in the course of making up a legend.

Note: 38,500 lbs is about 20 tons, about a 2/3 load for a galleon ship.

Something for you'all to chew on.

Nope I'm not a structural engineer.
 
Since we can easily deduce that the 9 levels are given for the 9 digits that make up the first cycle in base 10 numbering before we return to zero (monad) and indicate that by adding a digit for the powers of 10 we might want to ask: why base 10 at all? Why give a story with this 9 and 10 emphasis? What is 90 to you? Is it not a right angle's value in degrees? So we are given a vertical line suggestion for our shaft which is constructed like a ladder that rises from a mystery vault which is associated with 40 in many ways. This is not traditionally a motif that involves weights. It is an old one from when there was an idea floating around about the world emanating from concentric spheres. This, of course, came out of a belief that higher realities were also under the influence of geometric principals where even numbers had female (birthing) qualities. We can represent the money pit visually by showing an overlay of the first unit polygons. That looks like this:
jacob's ladder.webp

At the core in orange is a Vesica whose number is given by 153 in the geometric esoteric tradition. That, in the OI story, is the depth of the vault in feet.

You should think of the Vesica as containing the mystery of life (2 engendering 1 in birth). If you construct to the 20-gon you will get in the vertical a central ascent of 9 levels (the middle way of Freemasonry). 20 is the number given to death. It encapsulates the mystery of death. To search in life for the origins of the mystery of life and dealt is not going to produce the treasure which is promised to all, allegedly. That treasure is given the number 40, and it stands for the afterlife.

As for weights, we are given 2 000 000 pounds in association to 40 on the stone (omen) with 40 characters if we want to conflate weight with values in pounds sterling. 2 x 1 000 000. Where 2 is female and 1 000 000 is the number given by Dee to Pneumaikos (spiritual insight) in his tree of rarity (Arbor Raritatis). That is in contrast to the branch with the powers of 10 that refer to rationality.

It really is about recognizing the motifs with the OI story, imo. In the tired old story the 7th must die before the treasure is accessed by anyone. The 8th is the Anti-Christ who will be defeated by the upright men. I don't have a clue why this even resonates any more. It's 2 century old Masonic allegory. Rick is doing his best to repackage it for modern consumption.

Hercules carried the weight of the world on his shoulders. When he wanted to go search for the golden apples (symbols of total knowledge) he sat it on the twin pillars (Jachin and Boaz). The pillars are sometimes given as the sides of the ladder in the ascent. The meaning would be that it all rests on the mystery of creation if you are looking for a suggestion to accept.
 
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1. A single level DID hold about 38,500 lbs of
dirt.

That's a lot. What diameter did you use for your calculations? Most of the versions say there was the 13' depression, but then some say that the shaft itself was only 7' or some other number smaller than 13.

--GT
 
Using 7' from DesBrishay's HISTORY OF THE COUNTY OF LUNEMBERG. We know he was out there 1850-1860 because he notes details like a treenail on the site, and stated the diameter of the MP was 7'. (Read chapter 25 - it's FREE!!!)
Dirt is an assumed average of 100 lbs/ft3.

Heh. If you had to remove another 2,000,000 lbs, that's another 52 levels - another 520 ft.
 
Using 7' from DesBrishay's HISTORY OF THE COUNTY OF LUNEMBERG. We know he was out there 1850-1860 because he notes details like a treenail on the site, and stated the diameter of the MP was 7'. (Read chapter 25 - it's FREE!!!)
Dirt is an assumed average of 100 lbs/ft3.

Heh. If you had to remove another 2,000,000 lbs, that's another 52 levels - another 520 ft.
Desbrisay did not know firsthand about the diameter of any depression at OI. Anything that had reached him or has reached us is window dressing for this symbolic account.

A circle is a symbol of a cycle, for one. To adorn it with 7 might send you in the direction of thinking of that cycle based in 7 in which there are 52 weeks. This would count as a time suggestion. And this Enochian shaft story is in fact revolving around the end of cycles that is given by the End Times. The discovery of the illegible stone was an omen of this time in the mystical Hebrew stories. In NS that was commonly believe to have been prescribed for 1843. 40 year before, is the alleged date of the discovery of the stone of 40 characters. "40 years ago" is also the title of Haliburton's Chapter 2 in the work in which he gives a story ominously close to what we were given later at OI. Haliburton is a good source. His historical work of 1829 which documents Lunenburg county does not reference any popular treasure account a OI.

7 and a circle is also a perfectly fine symbolism for the the seventh nesting sphere (heaven). Divide it in three, as with the forked branch over the depression and you have a Trinity suggestion.
 
I've been giving some thought to the platforms ... how they may have been constructed and what was found at some of the levels.

While acknowledging the discrepancies in reports of how many platforms there actually were, one of the areas where the re-tellings seem most consistent is in claiming that:

1. the walls of the shaft were hard-packed, while the "fill" was easier to dig, as if previously disturbed.
2. oak logs/poles that made up the platforms had their ends firmly embedded in the walls of the shaft.

This presents a bit of a logical conundrum. In order for it to be true, the logs would have to be longer than the diameter of the shaft. Imagine, if you will, a crew of people constructing this. The oak logs that will form the platforms are handed/hoisted down to workers at the bottom. These workers in turn can drive one end of the logs into the hard clay sides to "embed" them, but what about the other side? If they are angling the log downward into a horizontal position, either the upward end will have to come to rest flush with the side of the shaft but not penetrating it, OR it can be forced to scrape the side until it is horizontal, leaving a big gouge in the hard-packed clay and potentially undermining the integrity of the wall on that side, making it now disturbed earth as well and no longer the "virgin" hard-pack as described. We are told that the discoverers and later syndicates could see the pick marks on the walls, but we aren't told they found any big chunks gouged out near the ends of the platforms. It's not like those oak logs were hinged in the middle so that both ends could be driven laterally. Even if we imagine that the shaft was originally wider to accommodate the full length of every platform log, then the earth placed on top of the ends and the shaft narrowed as it rose, that would still mean disturbed earth at the sides. Sure, they could tamp it down a little, but the kind of compression that would leave it looking untouched was probably not within their tech level.

There could be scenarios I haven't thought of that would be consistent with the reported features.

More thoughts to follow.

--GT
 
One of the deeper levels in the Money Pit found by Onslow reportedly had a layer of charcoal. It has been speculated that there was a wood-fired smithy on that level for the purpose of fixing/honing the diggers' tools as they went deeper. This doesn't really make any sense, either in the presence of an oak log platform or its absence. With a diameter of only between seven and thirteen feet (depending on the source), there could not have been room for such a setup and still have space for the diggers to dig. Even if you imagine the smithy on a ledge to one side, the eventual removal of that ledge as the dig progressed would not allow then for a "layer" of charcoal, as it all would drop to the lowest level of progress. The only thing that could explain the various layers of deposit is that they were laid down on the way up. An active smithy while tunnelling up would not work either, because if the roof was still being excavated, there'd be no place for the exhaust/smoke to go.

So, while there may have been such a charcoal layer, I don't see how it could have been from any type of forge works.

I think we need additional open-minded ideas about what the Money Pit shaft, if man-made, could have been for. This wouldn't rule out its use for treasure later. Someone here suggested a saw pit. That's a good start. With the presence of the charcoal layer, another possibility, though kinda far-fetched, is a charcoal "clamp", where wood was stacked and burned for the purpose of creating the charcoal, which had many industrial uses. But forty feet under the surface is very deep for such a thing -- probably unheard of.

Anyway. Just some musings. Make of them what you will.

--GT
 
Got curious as to how much weight a level in the MP could support to get an upper limit of the amount of treasure it could hold. If my numbers are correct ...
1. A single level DID hold about 38,500 lbs of
dirt.
2. This is about 60% of catastrophic failure,
which means ANY PLATFORM THAT FAILED
WOULD FAIL ALL PLATFORMS BELOW IT.

So the size of the logs in the platforms, and the size of the hole, and the distance between platforms just happened to be matched to make perfect engineering.

Having trouble believing someone worked out this detail in the course of making up a legend.

Note: 38,500 lbs is about 20 tons, about a 2/3 load for a galleon ship.

Something for you'all to chew on.

Nope I'm not a structural engineer.
Just technical correction
38500 × 0.454 = apprx. 17.5 tons

Because 2 lbs = slightly less than 1 kg.
About 10 % less than a kg
 
One of the deeper levels in the Money Pit found by Onslow reportedly had a layer of charcoal. It has been speculated that there was a wood-fired smithy on that level for the purpose of fixing/honing the diggers' tools as they went deeper. This doesn't really make any sense, either in the presence of an oak log platform or its absence. With a diameter of only between seven and thirteen feet (depending on the source), there could not have been room for such a setup and still have space for the diggers to dig. Even if you imagine the smithy on a ledge to one side, the eventual removal of that ledge as the dig progressed would not allow then for a "layer" of charcoal, as it all would drop to the lowest level of progress. The only thing that could explain the various layers of deposit is that they were laid down on the way up. An active smithy while tunnelling up would not work either, because if the roof was still being excavated, there'd be no place for the exhaust/smoke to go.

So, while there may have been such a charcoal layer, I don't see how it could have been from any type of forge works.

I think we need additional open-minded ideas about what the Money Pit shaft, if man-made, could have been for. This wouldn't rule out its use for treasure later. Someone here suggested a saw pit. That's a good start. With the presence of the charcoal layer, another possibility, though kinda far-fetched, is a charcoal "clamp", where wood was stacked and burned for the purpose of creating the charcoal, which had many industrial uses. But forty feet under the surface is very deep for such a thing -- probably unheard of.

Anyway. Just some musings. Make of them what you will.

--GT
I am not an engineer but Okay you say " at one of the deeper levels of the pit".
First, do we know for sure that this supposedly intentionally mounted/ added layer of charcoal was equally thick at every segment of the periphery of the pit? If so, how did the discovery crew establish that it was equally thick and symmetrically " inserted " horzontallywise right on top of the oak wood logs and under the next/ upper layer of logs?
Did they fracture the walls sideways AT THAT DEPTH to identify such a situation?
I doubt it to about 80 % certainty they didn't fracture the structure.....
-
- I also doubt that this material was charcoal. No matter what color it was, or what texture....

>> This is what I think: Because it was at the deeper level, they encountered some small streaks of running water from the landmasses Sideways of the soon to be constructed inner Wall of the pit. So they musy have used another type of material- like Alumo- Silicate clay to cement/ glue the walls so they wouldn't leak into the Pit, so the diggers could continue to dig deeper.....
They have variety of colors of such clay in the Kentucky part ( and other parts too ) of the Appalachian mountains . Also all over the world. .I heard it is derived at a depth of about 60 to 100 meters / yards vertical depth.
It has been used for a century or more for production of medical porcelain and has been used for millenia for different pottery with cohesive structures.
> There is white, light beige, darker beige, greenish, even bluish as well as brownish.
So ' I THINK that's what the " charcoal " is at this depth of the pit!
This substance comes quite Wet from the ground under those mountains.
Not always, but it does come pretty moist and HAS GREAT PLASTICITY. Much more wet than what they use for some lower quality roof tiles etc.....
Therefore after being applied at that level down there to the walls, it later dries up may even crave unevenly and MAYBE that's why it looks like charcoal.
By the way,some people say that this Aluminium-rich Silicate clay is THE SAME THING as more shallower-found VOLCANIC LAVA that is actually warm ( I assume ) and has stayed at these shallower layers for thousands,maybe hundreds of thousands of years.
It is not as good as modern cement but from certain physical deposits, might come close to be able to be used for Insutions like that.....

> Last, the wood logs. The diggers may have Inserted them totally in a horizontal manner WITHOUT any hinges in the middle. Just end to end but may have done it 1 or 2 at a time. Like watermelon slices that are parallel to each other.
I was reading how around 1905 or 1908.it was in Elgin, Illinois, the diggers doing very deep I believe it was about 10 feet diameter tunnel for very deep well installations- 1 of three vertical shaft for the 3 wells in total was about 200 yards deep while the deepest one of the 3 was about 2000 feet. That's about 600 meters down. This historical article is From 1913. I believe because in 1913 the city and state authorities had a high level ( maybe IL congressional) review of these back then 10 year old Infrasructures.

They found so much underground water and it was bursting so fast in great amounts that soon 1 or 2 of the wells started dragging a lot of sand into the city pipelines. So the original big scale Elgin town wells were abandoned! Because of the sand.

But Anyway, the engineers and workers at 1 point at 1 of the shafts encountered a lot of water pressing from underneath. So they decided to use very big and thick metal platforms to press back against the flood of water so that they could continue removing dirt and soil and whatever they encountered.

So maybe in this Money Pit, they also used certain size vertical platforms to insert at certain segments of the periphery . First say 16 or 24 inches tall, then remove some soil, then maybe 16 or 20 inches sideways they inserted another one vertical. Then woukd remove all the soil between them. There in those cleared areas, they would Kay flat 1 or 2 Oak boards/ logs... Then they woukd do the same in the counter direction, maybe were meanwhile supporting from the surface of the pit WITH ROPES the slightly inclined log, untill enough soil was removed from underneath. And then they woukd let that side of the log fall down evenly onto its place where it still stands.
Then they woukd repeat all that clockwise 360 degrees untill they arranged all these oak logs....

I am sure I am missing something. But trust me those old craftsmen had a lot of technology and knowledge. They just did everything better than today. And not necessarily slower in fact. Maybe just a little slower.
 
I think we need additional open-minded ideas about what the Money Pit shaft, if man-made, could have been for. This wouldn't rule out its use for treasure later. Someone here suggested a saw pit.
Sounds familiar.

The big piece that didn't fit was the levels below,. The sawpit concept only needed one layer of logs at 10 ft.

Let's try thinking of a mine shaft. Is this the way to build one? How long would an open shaft be usable?

What we could use is someone 🐦‍⬛ with a mining background to give an opinion as to this feasibility.
 
Let's try thinking of a mine shaft. Is this the way to build one? How long would an open shaft be usable?

If they were mining the clay itself, which has been suggested by some, then the 93 feet or so that Onslow originally uncovered could be the majority of the mine. That leads to questions like, if their purpose was to take away the clay, where did all the backfill come from? And of course the platforms remain a mystery in a clay mine.

On the other hand, if they were mining for almost anything else, you'd expect side tunnels. The only side opening ever found that wasn't created by searchers, to my knowledge, was the flood tunnel egress at 111 feet. Any other features would have to be below the water encroachment. If the depths of such a mine had not always been subject to that flood, you could have all sorts of workings and cribbed side shafts that have never been seen. Maybe the probed structure that originally rested at ~98 feet (pre-collapse) was the last repose of the tools and stuff the miners had used.

--GT
 
Got curious as to how much weight a level in the MP could support to get an upper limit of the amount of treasure it could hold. If my numbers are correct ...
1. A single level DID hold about 38,500 lbs of
dirt.
2. This is about 60% of catastrophic failure,
which means ANY PLATFORM THAT FAILED
WOULD FAIL ALL PLATFORMS BELOW IT.

So the size of the logs in the platforms, and the size of the hole, and the distance between platforms just happened to be matched to make perfect engineering.

Having trouble believing someone worked out this detail in the course of making up a legend.

Note: 38,500 lbs is about 20 tons, about a 2/3 load for a galleon ship.

Something for you'all to chew on.

Nope I'm not a structural engineer.
Actually I heard the most plausible answer to the story is that it was originally dug as a Mast building tool. The pit was dug, a large log was placed in the hole, and shaped for a replacement mast. Then somehow got built into this mythical place? Kind of like raising an obelisk.

Probably had something to do with making sure the log (mast) was as plumb as possible?
 
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Log levels have always made sense.

Digging a shaft is begging for a rock to come out of the side of it and ruining your day. Cribbing or floors would prevent that, and floors take less material.

No side tunnels? That IS odd. Would that mean they were digging down expecting to find a vein of something and never did (at least through the first 93 ft)?

So what were they looking for?

Also note that mining operations usually need a water source. The flood tunnel could have started as that water source, then was blocked later.
 
Why would anyone dig to depth for clay when the entire MP area is made of the very dense yellow clay? Restall kept hitting it everywhere he probed looking for flood tunnels. You'd not head straight down if you noticed the walls of a shallow pit were still cutting into solid clay all around you. You would widen and access what is easily gotten. Also, open clay pits are typically coastal operations in colonial times. Here you would have needed to clear a forest of trees. Assuming there was even a clearing there in 1795, that clearing was 33 years old, and no more, since recent British colonial activity followed the 1762 survey. Anything old would have clearly grown in again. If it was an older shaft in a newer clearing there would not have been a tree left sanding next to it with anything hanging from it.

The MP location is on the highest ground. A vertical shaft there, if present, must be exploiting the fact that there is maximum depth there above sea level, possibly for a well (of which there are other examples in that area). If it is well intended to capture percolating surface water then it would have contained the only potable water on that island, because the island has no fresh sources. This would have mattered to the 1763 arrivals.

The cartoonish suggestions we were given in the pulp fictions would align only with the thing being built that way carefully in its backfilling. You cannot achieve that as you go down without massive vertical shoring. Tell me of anyone who would even be bothered to fill in a hole with such regularity and then leave it marked to suggest a systemic burial.

The entire thing stinks of mental gymnastics to try and accommodate origin stories containing demonstrably false details to begin with. No one alleging anything special on his property would draw interest unless there were compelling details that imposed an unusual "man made" quality to anyone's interpretation. Precise quantitative details with a repeating quality do that.

Unfortunately for the OI stories, they are far fetched and too loaded with precise enticing details. Someone kept shooting themselves in the foot the more the story borrowed from a legendary Biblical shaft and followed its unravelling. English translations of mythical stones of half ashlar proportion containing 40 characters, were they true, would fix the identity of the creators to modern Freemasons.

Nothing is helped by the fact searchers keep stumbling on searcher remnants and calling them pre searcher.
 
Why would anyone dig to depth for clay when the entire MP area is made of the very dense yellow clay? Restall kept hitting it everywhere he probed looking for flood tunnels. You'd not head straight down if you noticed the walls of a shallow pit were still cutting into solid clay all around you. You would widen and access what is easily gotten. Also, open clay pits are typically coastal operations in colonial times. Here you would have needed to clear a forest of trees. Assuming there was even a clearing there in 1795, that clearing was 33 years old, and no more, since recent British colonial activity followed the 1762 survey. Anything old would have clearly grown in again. If it was an older shaft in a newer clearing there would not have been a tree left sanding next to it with anything hanging from it.

The MP location is on the highest ground. A vertical shaft there, if present, must be exploiting the fact that there is maximum depth there above sea level, possibly for a well (of which there are other examples in that area). If it is well intended to capture percolating surface water then it would have contained the only potable water on that island, because the island has no fresh sources. This would have mattered to the 1763 arrivals.

The cartoonish suggestions we were given in the pulp fictions would align only with the thing being built that way carefully in its backfilling. You cannot achieve that as you go down without massive vertical shoring. Tell me of anyone who would even be bothered to fill in a hole with such regularity and then leave it marked to suggest a systemic burial.

The entire thing stinks of mental gymnastics to try and accommodate origin stories containing demonstrably false details to begin with. No one alleging anything special on his property would draw interest unless there were compelling details that imposed an unusual "man made" quality to anyone's interpretation. Precise quantitative details with a repeating quality do that.

Unfortunately for the OI stories, they are far fetched and too loaded with precise enticing details. Someone kept shooting themselves in the foot the more the story borrowed from a legendary Biblical shaft and followed its unravelling. English translations of mythical stones of half ashlar proportion containing 40 characters, were they true, would fix the identity of the creators to modern Freemasons.

Nothing is helped by the fact searchers keep stumbling on searcher remnants and calling them pre searcher.
Yeah, My first thought was it was a well. I just heard the latest theory about Mast builders, and thought it was interesting.
I think the key to the story is there is no natural water source on the Island.
Funny thing is over the years the stories of The Money Pit have become more outrageous and ridiculous with some stories involving the Knights Templer.
Hillarious 🤣
 
The entire thing stinks of mental gymnastics to try and accommodate origin stories containing demonstrably false details to begin with.
The best sentence in this thread so far.

The funniest gymnastic is the notion that the log platforms were used for a smith's forge. Don't think I've heard that one before. Yes, that's a good idea, placing a red-hot forge on a wooden platform above people digging. If nothing else, it sucks all the oxygen out of the hole and kills everyone.
 
Why would anyone dig to depth for clay when the entire MP area is made of the very dense yellow clay? Restall kept hitting it everywhere he probed looking for flood tunnels. You'd not head straight down if you noticed the walls of a shallow pit were still cutting into solid clay all around you. You would widen and access what is easily gotten. Also, open clay pits are typically coastal operations in colonial times. Here you would have needed to clear a forest of trees. Assuming there was even a clearing there in 1795, that clearing was 33 years old, and no more, since recent British colonial activity followed the 1762 survey. Anything old would have clearly grown in again. If it was an older shaft in a newer clearing there would not have been a tree left sanding next to it with anything hanging from it.

The MP location is on the highest ground. A vertical shaft there, if present, must be exploiting the fact that there is maximum depth there above sea level, possibly for a well (of which there are other examples in that area). If it is well intended to capture percolating surface water then it would have contained the only potable water on that island, because the island has no fresh sources. This would have mattered to the 1763 arrivals.

The cartoonish suggestions we were given in the pulp fictions would align only with the thing being built that way carefully in its backfilling. You cannot achieve that as you go down without massive vertical shoring. Tell me of anyone who would even be bothered to fill in a hole with such regularity and then leave it marked to suggest a systemic burial.

The entire thing stinks of mental gymnastics to try and accommodate origin stories containing demonstrably false details to begin with. No one alleging anything special on his property would draw interest unless there were compelling details that imposed an unusual "man made" quality to anyone's interpretation. Precise quantitative details with a repeating quality do that.

Unfortunately for the OI stories, they are far fetched and too loaded with precise enticing details. Someone kept shooting themselves in the foot the more the story borrowed from a legendary Biblical shaft and followed its unravelling. English translations of mythical stones of half ashlar proportion containing 40 characters, were they true, would fix the identity of the creators to modern Freemasons.

Nothing is helped by the fact searchers keep stumbling on searcher remnants and calling them pre searcher.
I didn't follow the story from beginning. But why would someone decide to dig deeper given dense yellow clay was everywhere sideways??
- I think because maybe they thought they would encounter even darker and finer clay
Darker because people were always looking for what was esthetically pleasing and also they might have thought they would discover something totally different and unusual.
Or they thought maybe the deeper they go, the higher the chance this yellow clay woukd turn into minerals that contained gold....
 
There was reason to believe there was gold down below.

During the first season of COOI, a lot of gold stuff was shown on the shore, which turned out to be iron pyrite (fool's gold). That seems like incentive to start digging that shaft (AND DON'T STOP UNTIL YOU HIT THE MOTHERLODE !!)
 
During the first season of COOI, a lot of gold stuff was shown on the shore, which turned out to be iron pyrite (fool's gold). That seems like incentive to start digging that shaft (AND DON'T STOP UNTIL YOU HIT THE MOTHERLODE !!)
So they left all of that easy-pickings "gold" around the shoreline and instead dug a 100-foot deep hole to see if they could find more gold? That makes as much sense as the forge-in-the-hole idea. Does anyone even think about what they are posting?

The depression being caused by a sinkhole is a highly likely scenario.
The depression being caused by a dug well is a possible scenario.
The depression being caused by a buried treasure is a very unlikely scenario.
The depression being caused by a treasure buried 100 feet deep is a vanishingly unlikely scenario.
The depression being caused by all the subsequent fantasies is just plain silly.
C'mon folks, Occam's razor is sharp and effective; use it.
 

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