Spanish Missions

[markmar]

Marius, the R. Azul that appears on the old Spanish maps (and on the maps of the other nations that obtained and copied those maps) is actually the Verde...

What I don't understand is why they seem to overlook the Hassayampa...perhaps that is R. Assumpcion...surely they must have known about it...

Jim , for sure they knew more than what have put on paper .

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Jim , for sure they knew more than what have put on paper .

I agree Mi Amigo...

If you look closely at the section in question, on the London map you posted, and read the various expedition journals (not just Kino's), what will become clear is that the Spanish seem to have focused on that area north of the Gila, and between the Verde (Azul) and what appears to be the Hassayampa Rivers...the mountains in between those are probably the Bradshaws, but there are others they COULD be...if one looks west while on the Carefree Highway on the way to Lake Pleasant, you will see what I mean by other candidates...the outline of those mountains on the horizon is unmistakable...anyway, the "tall mountains" referred to on the map could be either range, and is largely immaterial as the entire region is littered with gold, silver and copper deposits to this day...

If the R. Assumption on the 1757 map is indeed the Hassayampa, it's clear that they explored all the way up into the area of the Bill Williams...which makes sense considering the amount of gold they probably sampled in the Hassayampa and its tribs...and most of the later gold discoveries of the 1860's were in that general area...roughly from the Vulture mine in the south, to the Bill Williams area in the north, and mostly between the Hassayampa on the west, and Verde on the east...personally, I'm not convinced that the Vulture lode, placers such as Lynx Creek, etc. were unknown to the Spanish...I think they did miss some, such as Rich Hill...but I think they knew full well what was there and were keeping it under their hats...the region became much more difficult to explore/exploit not long after the Jesuit expulsion, so the region sat unexploited but I think many Spanish and Mexican priests, military, and socially connected families knew exactly what was up there.

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

Marius,

I was referencing Ink's statement from the initial post in this thread...



I was referring directly to missions located N of the Gila River.

I'm far from being knowledgeable about the Jesuits or Franciscans, but I've seen the map you linked many times before as well as a few other versions done at differing times and I personally don't see any missions shown to the N of the Gila River. The only possible exception would be "San Dionysio" however as I understand it that was never a mission but rather just a collection of Yuma natives who lived there and Kino gave it that name.

The other Mission locations are all S of the Gila or W of the Santa Cruz from what I can see. I know there are some inaccuracies or at least questionable things on the 1757 French reproduction of the Jesuit map - for example Casa Grande and the Salt/Verde rivers are not lined up the way it seems as though they should be and I'm not sure exactly what Rio Azul is?

Like I said, I'm not really informed on all this stuff, so please correct me if I'm not seeing something correctly.

I believe the Rio Azul is the modern Salt river and the rios Salada/ Verde/ Asumpcion are the modern Hassayampa.

I find it interesting that the indian rancharias between Casa Grande and the Rio Azul didn't have names. As I recall Father Kino didn't name rancharias where the indians were either hostile or not industrious enough to become good neophytes. Hostile indians might be a good reason to hide a mission up in the hills to serve the many mines and act as a defensive position. So maybe those old ruins up there are an old mission. Probably Franciscan not Jesuit since the map was made only 10 years before the Jesuits were kicked out.

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

Paul , you are right . There was only one mission north of Gila ( San Dionysio ) , and I say this because in the second link , the author presented the first map as Jesuit missions and not Native villages . Of course , we will never can know for certain .
I believe the Rio Azul to be the Queen Creek ,which in that era could been a river .

Mr markmar, please look at the map. Just south of Casa Grande you'll see San Agustin. That's the old presidio in modern Tucson, so the stream next to it must be the Santa Cruz. Tha confluence of Rio Azul and the Gila is downstream from the confluence of the Santa Cruz and the Gila. Queen creek hits the Gila upstream from the Santa Cruz, so I don't believe Rio Azul is Queen creek.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I believe the Rio Azul is the modern Salt river ............<SNIP>..................

Lucky, I think you're correct, in a way...take another look at the map and at the R. Azul...it's the Verde ABOVE where it intersects with the Salt...and then it's the Salt, from the confluence of the Verde to the Gila...if you read some of the exploration journals, stories, etc., they went UP the Azul (now Verde) from the Gila...they considered it all to be the same river, and the Salt was considered a trib...the Spanish did not explore the Salt until after they went up the Verde...

 

[deducer]

Rio Azul or Blau Fluss, both meaning "blue river," later came to be known as the Verde river. The naming of the Verde River originally as Rio Azul isn't an accident as Rio Azul is a name thought to have been connected to the legend of a mountain of gold, located somewhere in the vicinity of the Moqui villages, known as Sierra Azul.

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

Lucky, I think you're correct, in a way...take another look at the map and at the R. Azul...it's the Verde ABOVE where it intersects with the Salt...and then it's the Salt, from the confluence of the Verde to the Gila...if you read some of the exploration journals, stories, etc., they went UP the Azul (now Verde) from the Gila...they considered it all to be the same river, and the Salt was considered a trib...the Spanish did not explore the Salt until after they went up the Verde...

Jim, that makes good sense, I'll bet you're right. As I recall, at first Fr. Kino wanted to visit the Hopis. so traveling up the Verdi would make more sense than the Salt.

 

[Cubfan64]

This could prove to be a very interesting discussion and it's probably going to force me to start reading some of the Kino/spanish/jesuit/exploration documents that are out there. Just a cursory glance earlier today showed me there's lots of confusion among early as well as contemporary writers as to what mountains and rivers those maps are supposed to be showing. I imagine somewhere in the documents there must be some descriptions of how long it took to get from one place to another or distance estimates that should help.

I think right now I favor the idea that the Rio Azul is the Verde and the Assumption/Green/Salado rivers are more in line with the Hassayampa/Agua Fria area.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Paul, I agree this would be a home-run of a discussion...my own personal belief, (backed up by...not much) is that the "hidden gold" themes of many of the legends in AZ are based in reality, and were a result of Spanish exploration and a little surface/exploratory mining here and there...some of those caches have been found...and those families still exist in the SW and Mexico...the stories have just gotten jumbled over time...

Lucky, keep in mind that while Fr. Kino was a heck of an explorer, there were expeditions prior to his that went FAR north of the Gila...I don't think Kino himself was much interested in mining, but those prior expeditions were very interested in it...it's those expeditions I would focus on...not that it will lead you to a spectacular cache, but who knows, stranger things have happened!

Deducer: Agree with you 110% on R. Azul.

 

[deducer]

This could prove to be a very interesting discussion and it's probably going to force me to start reading some of the Kino/spanish/jesuit/exploration documents that are out there. Just a cursory glance earlier today showed me there's lots of confusion among early as well as contemporary writers as to what mountains and rivers those maps are supposed to be showing. I imagine somewhere in the documents there must be some descriptions of how long it took to get from one place to another or distance estimates that should help.

I think right now I favor the idea that the Rio Azul is the Verde and the Assumption/Green/Salado rivers are more in line with the Hassayampa/Agua Fria area.

It would, for sure, be a very interesting discussion. Those earlier maps are riddled with errors, adding to the confusion and disagreement over what is represented on them, to this day.

Also, folks need to keep in mind that the Salt wasn't as big as it is today. It even ran dry at times, back then. During raining season, it would swell to many times its sizes catching people like Waltz, off guard. It was finally tamed by the Roosevelt and Mormon dams.

 

[deducer]

Lucky, keep in mind that while Fr. Kino was a heck of an explorer, there were expeditions prior to his that went FAR north of the Gila...I don't think Kino himself was much interested in mining, but those prior expeditions were very interested in it...it's those expeditions I would focus on...not that it will lead you to a spectacular cache, but who knows, stranger things have happened!

Not so fast, Jim. I will get back to you on this. Have to do some digging.

 

[PotBelly Jim]

Deducer, any ideas or theories on where Sierra Azul actually was? I tend to believe the Black Hills/Cleopatra Hill theory, mostly because the Moqui color for SW was blue, which they usually used green (Malachite) to represent. I think Espejo got his silver there, and perhaps Onate visited/sampled those mines as well...if Onate did have silver in any quantity on that trip, it's probably buried out there somewhere as they had to eat their horses on the way back.

EDIT: Sorry, was typing this out before I saw your post above...probably best to focus on one issue at a time...that being said, if you destroy my image of Fr. Kino as a liberator of people enslaved in mines, I will always hold a grudge albeit a good-natured one...

 

[Cubfan64]

Just a quick aside...

If this discussion continues in an interesting vein, I would ask that as often as possible site sources for at least some of the things that helped form your opinions. I'm not saying this so we can mash on each other's sources, but as someone who really hasn't dug into any of this stuff very deeply it would be a great resource for things to read to get more familiar on the topic.

Thanks

 

[markmar]

In the first link which I posted , there are many maps that show Rio Azul just left from Casa Grande and before Salt River and Verde/San Francisco river .
The Azul River on the next about 100 years dissapears and in a map of 1862 , there is only a " Mineral Creek " instead . See at https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/de...rritories-of-new-mexico-and-utah-ward-johnson
Here also appears an " Old Ruins " spot just on the east side of Verde river at the junction with Salt River . Its odd nobody mentioned this site in the previous years maps .
Also in a map of 1798 the big mountains west of Rio Verde are named as " Montagnes d'Azul " . https://www.raremaps.com/gallery/de...elle-espagne-pour-servir-a-la-decouvert-campe

 

[Lucky Baldwin]

Just a quick aside...

If this discussion continues in an interesting vein, I would ask that as often as possible site sources for at least some of the things that helped form your opinions. I'm not saying this so we can mash on each other's sources, but as someone who really hasn't dug into any of this stuff very deeply it would be a great resource for things to read to get more familiar on the topic.

Thanks

I like Bancroft's version of history. He is very thorough and tries to remain politically neutral.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5...ce=gbs_ge_summary_r&cad=0#v=onepage&q&f=false

Plus his version is free

 

[deducer]

Deducer, any ideas or theories on where Sierra Azul actually was? I tend to believe the Black Hills/Cleopatra Hill theory, mostly because the Moqui color for SW was blue, which they usually used green (Malachite) to represent. I think Espejo got his silver there, and perhaps Onate visited/sampled those mines as well...if Onate did have silver in any quantity on that trip, it's probably buried out there somewhere as they had to eat their horses on the way back.

EDIT: Sorry, was typing this out before I saw your post above...probably best to focus on one issue at a time...that being said, if you destroy my image of Fr. Kino as a liberator of people enslaved in mines, I will always hold a grudge albeit a good-natured one...

Hi Jim,

Trying to figure out the whole Sierra Azul thing is going down a rabbit hole- it was first mentioned by Diego de Penalosa, governor general of New Mexico from 1661 to 1664. He was a known and notorious liar, who started the speculation about Sierra Azul and it took off from there. It was often used as a cheap ploy to convince kings, particularly the king of Spain, to grant expeditions. Amongst the fervent believers of Sierra Azul was Capt. Juan Mateo Mange, Kino's companion, who thought it was somewhere up the Verde, then the very heart of Apacheria.

Now, as far as Fr. Kino. Before I start posting about him, I would like to preface it by stating two things:

1) I am keenly interested in the actual history of what happened in the Superstitions and in relation to the Superstitions, and by that I mean the actual history, not the whitewashed history interpreted by Polzer, Bancroft, et al. or any other scholars, and neither am I overtly reliant on the printed word as the final authority of history. What I have seen in the Superstition mountains directly conflict with some of the printed history of the Superstitions. A majority of those printed accounts rely on other printed accounts which rely on previous printed accounts which were whitewashed or tailored to meet with the acceptance/approval of governors of the regions or the kings that frequently funded the opportunities for those historical accounts to end up in print, and very little on oral traditions since those are thought to be a lot more unreliable.

2) I personally have nothing against Kino. He is a fascinating, historical figure to me. Very industrious and ingenious, a pioneer and a very driven man of many talents. And much more.

However, I am not afraid of calling a spade, a spade. Sure, he was a man of God and a helper of people, but his first and foremost allegiance was to the company, and more importantly, the growth and flourishing of said company, which of course is not possible without endowment. As far as the promotion and expansion of Jesuit power and influence in the New World, Kino was right in the thick of it.

When I have more time, this afternoon, I'll post excerpts, bits and pieces, that show where Kino slips up, as far as concealing his true intents, and attempting to portray himself only as simple man who is aiding the "plight" of the Indian.

 

[Cubfan64]

Hi Jim,

Trying to figure out the whole Sierra Azul thing is going down a rabbit hole- it was first mentioned by Diego de Penalosa, governor general of New Mexico from 1661 to 1664. He was a known and notorious liar, who started the speculation about Sierra Azul and it took off from there. It was often used as a cheap ploy to convince kings, particularly the king of Spain, to grant expeditions. Amongst the fervent believers of Sierra Azul was Capt. Juan Mateo Mange, Kino's companion, who thought it was somewhere up the Verde, then the very heart of Apacheria.

Now, as far as Fr. Kino. Before I start posting about him, I would like to preface it by stating two things:

1) I am keenly interested in the actual history of what happened in the Superstitions and in relation to the Superstitions, and by that I mean the actual history, not the whitewashed history interpreted by Polzer, Bancroft, et al. or any other scholars, and neither am I overtly reliant on the printed word as the final authority of history. What I have seen in the Superstition mountains directly conflict with some of the printed history of the Superstitions. A majority of those printed accounts rely on other printed accounts which rely on previous printed accounts which were whitewashed or tailored to meet with the acceptance/approval of governors of the regions or the kings that frequently funded the opportunities for those historical accounts to end up in print, and very little on oral traditions since those are thought to be a lot more unreliable.

2) I personally have nothing against Kino. He is a fascinating, historical figure to me. Very industrious and ingenious, a pioneer and a very driven man of many talents. And much more.

However, I am not afraid of calling a spade, a spade. Sure, he was a man of God and a helper of people, but his first and foremost allegiance was to the company, and more importantly, the growth and flourishing of said company, which of course is not possible without endowment. As far as the promotion and expansion of Jesuit power and influence in the New World, Kino was right in the thick of it.

When I have more time, this afternoon, I'll post excerpts, bits and pieces, that show where Kino slips up, as far as concealing his true intents, and attempting to portray himself only as simple man who is aiding the "plight" of the Indian.

Good post Deducer. I do have a comment/question however...

Your first point begs the question that if you aren't putting much faith in printed/scholarly works to give insights on the true history of the Superstitions, then what are you basing your true history on?

When you state

What I have seen in the Superstition mountains directly conflict with some of the printed history of the Superstitions.

the obvious question from the reader is what specifically have you seen, and can you provide examples? I'm sure you've seen many of the photographic "proof" that other posters have shown here of things they've interpreted as treasure signs, rock carvings, etc... that you probably scratch your head at wondering how someone could make that interpretation of something so clearly a work of mother nature.

To be clear, I'm not saying I disagree with you or am looking for an argument. If nothing else, I have an open mind, but as someone who enjoys research yourself, I'm sure if you were on this side of the keyboard you would be asking similar questions.

 

[Azquester]

I'm sure you've seen many of the photographic "proof" that other posters have shown here of things they've interpreted as treasure signs, rock carvings, etc... that you probably scratch your head at wondering how someone could make that interpretation of something so clearly a work of mother nature.​

Just thought I would interject a side note.

The intention of Jesuit symbols and signs towards treasures or mines was that the Jesuit Walkers be able "To distinguish mother nature from the Hand of Man". In my documentation of the many sites along the San Pedro and close to the same said Mission Pueblo of San Pedro, this is the case. There isn't many of these sites only a few I've discovered. My explorations of the Superstitions are not complete. So far, I've seen nothing in the photographs posted to suggest any of these sites exist in the supers. Of course, the Superstitions are a huge range and the entry way carvings as per Kenworthy's research are identical to the Catalina Mountain Range. So I know one exists, but, it may be far away and remote from the Supers entryway trail head pieces.

Hand of Man

Think about it...

 

[wrmickel1]

Good post Deducer. I do have a comment/question however...

Your first point begs the question that if you aren't putting much faith in printed/scholarly works to give insights on the true history of the Superstitions, then what are you basing your true history on?

When you state the obvious question from the reader is what specifically have you seen, and can you provide examples? I'm sure you've seen many of the photographic "proof" that other posters have shown here of things they've interpreted as treasure signs, rock carvings, etc... that you probably scratch your head at wondering how someone could make that interpretation of something so clearly a work of mother nature.

To be clear, I'm not saying I disagree with you or am looking for an argument. If nothing else, I have an open mind, but as someone who enjoys research yourself, I'm sure if you were on this side of the keyboard you would be asking similar questions.

Must interject Here, Cubfan

There's more evidence in the Superstition Range of man made then not. Even a paper trail to the fact, Even Goldfields mines were old mines believed to have been Spanish in origin, there's countless mines in the range And spires of stacked stones that nobody knows who made them, The military used trails that were already there. Cleaned of loose stones.
You can track them back to 1880's but it gets real cloudy after that, but the older maps does list the area as just gold mines.

Thats more evidence then the Matchbox or known Dutchman's ore samples. But yet you believe that and not what you see and touch. I've held 2 other Matchboxes from the same company in question and know that Matchbox is not Dutchman's ore made from a single piece, Period.

Babymick1, The first account's of Dutchman's ore was in Rose Quarts not White,

 

[azdave35]

Must interject Here, Cubfan

There's more evidence in the Superstition Range of man made then not. Even a paper trail to the fact, Even Goldfields mines were old mines believed to have been Spanish in origin, there's countless mines in the range And spires of stacked stones that nobody knows who made them, The military used trails that were already there. Cleaned of loose stones.
You can track them back to 1880's but it gets real cloudy after that, but the older maps does list the area as just gold mines.

Thats more evidence then the Matchbox or known Dutchman's ore samples. But yet you believe that and not what you see and touch. I've held 2 other Matchboxes from the same company in question and know that Matchbox is not Dutchman's ore made from a single piece, Period.

Babymick1, The first account's of Dutchman's ore was in Rose Quarts not White,

the mickster has spoken