Spanish Naval buckle or ?

[firemedic]

Last week while hunting beside a small lake where a small "country club" building once stood, I found this piece . I ran across this post (http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/t...e-navy-buckle-update-john-powell-s-reply.html) while doing a google image search. It seems odd that this would be a Spanish naval belt buckle due to the location of my find. The town was founded in 1888 and the lake and club house were built in the 1890s. I thought maybe it was part of a belt for swimwear such as was worn around the 1900s. I'm interested to know if any further research has been done.

The piece is solid brass, there are no markings of any kind on the front or back. I will try to add more detailed pictures later today.

I should add that this was in Northcentral Missouri and the item was dug about 50 feet from the waters edge on the site of an old clubhouse built by the railroad for employees next to a manmade lake that was a water source for steam engines. The buckle was about 8" deep and was found with a Garrett ACE 350. I posted to the original thread but it seems inactive. Any help would be appreciated.

 

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[hogge]

......Case in point......I found a 85th French Saintonge Regiment button in Cummington Ma. This Reg. landed in 1780 at Newport RI and headed south to Battle of Lloyds Kneck NY, on to NJ, and then against Cornwallis at Yorktown. They weren't any closer than 150 miles to where I found this button. Why was it here?? You'll have to ask Don Troiani, I sold it to him. "Metal Detecting 101"

 

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[kuger]

Hmmmm,well,"hardly did you "shoot anything",PROVENANCE....look it up!!!Research 101....buckle construction vs date.....knowledge 101.Good day....and in the future "expert",good luck!!!

 

[hogge]

Think about what YOU just posted. You're talking a difference in time frame of 30-40 years.(blink of an eye) The Spanish were WAY ahead of us on alot of things. If you knew as much as you say you do, you would have known about the Spanish involvement in North America and the Revolution.Nah........ I think your knowledge may be vast on some things.....but very limited on others.

 

[kuger]

Think about what YOU just posted. You're talking a difference in time frame of 30-40 years.(blink of an eye) The Spanish were WAY ahead of us on alot of things. If you knew as much as you say you do, you would have known about the Spanish involvement in North America and the Revolution.Nah........ I think your knowledge may be vast on some things.....but very limited on others.

I dont even know why I am attempting to defend my experience against your dribble.I have never claimed to know it all.I do know a thing or two about two piece buckles....more so than most "experts",actually...that being said,I am always open to new info,and never cease to study/research.However,I do not take kindly to being attacked,like you have here,I go by information thats proven,provenance,and statistics...not what one person that happens to have wrote a book says...especially when that guys says"all I can tell you......",Yea,back it up!!Of all of the examples I know of,NONE have been found in any type of a Spanish type site,a military site(of any kind)or a early 1800's site...thats called provenance,and that does not lie.You can dream up any exciting adventure as you want.I state what is known.....also,I beleive there are plenty of highly reputable people on here that will vouch for my knowledge,and that speaks volumes.Good luck,and cease with attacks,I am only here to assist

 

[hogge]

I'm NOT attacking you! We are having a discussion and difference of opinion, and quite frankly, I don't think you can handle the fact you might be wrong about something. Fact of the matter is, there is NOT enough, definitive documentation about these buckles, to say what they really are for a certainty! You know it, and so do I. I do plenty of research also, friendo, before I start spouting off. So before you start saying my context is "dribble", guess again. Although I may be somewhat opinionated at times, I try to help people also. And YES.....I wanna be right too! Sometimes the answer is found..."outside the box".

 

[kuger]

So do you always determine a site is "Spanish",if you find Spanish coinage?I sure hope not,but since you date items by what depth they are dug,you may

Also,I never said I am right....you are the one that matter of fact stated something that has zero background and I asked you to back that up.....and you go on a tyrade about ow much I dont know?Cant handle if I am wrong?I have said several times....I am more than happy to learn anything new....as so far,I have not learned anything new,or seen anything that dispells what I have gathered from the at least 6(piecs) examples I personally know of this buckle....I have listed my findings above.

 

[fireford10]

hey yall, im still a lil new to this site. Although ive posted several times and have opinions about stuff in this section, Im still very ignorant (not stupid, just uneducated) on a lot of these historic pieces. With both of yall having a lot more knowledge on certain things that are a mystery to a lot of us newbies, i respect both of yalls inputs. Although this is not my post for an ID, i think the thread has veared away from what we are trying to do (i say "we" losely, as i have no clue, but am eager to learn about all items) for Firemedic. Maybe its time to just let it go, and leave it to him to continue research elswhere through his own efforts. He might be more confused or frustrated now than he was when the post started. Maybe im just a jacka$$ for even contributing my opinion on the matter. On the other hand, if hes in the fire service hes probably used to having heated debates on stuff and dosent mind. However you look at it, while this post i just wrote is somewhat of a rambling thought, i think its at a point where its a just battle of expertise.

 

[kuger]

I agree,and I am through.I think I have givin what I know,and supported that...vs....?

I just received a PM about an example that was found 200 miles from any coast,in an area with no Military affiliation,ever....which fits the PROVENANCE of the other examples I have examined

 

[firemedic]

Wow! I leave the room for a few minutes and look what happens. But in all seriousness, I am very grateful for all of the information provided. I have continued to scour the internet for further information about the buckle and it seems that so far, most is anecdotal or speculative. I feel like we are all very passionate about our hobby and it certainly shows. Having said that, I think that when dealing with a chunk of metal that is dug from the ground, often we are left with a precious few facts and are forced at times to make a best guess as to the history of the piece.
In this case, we know that there are few examples (at least documented) of this type of buckle. There seems to be no real pattern to where they can be found other than perhaps all have a been found in places with a history of 19th century activities. The pieces found have a naval design but we cannot say beyond all doubt whether they are military or decorative/fashion related. We have lots of examples of two piece buckles in the 19th century including civil war and foreign militaries. But no known examples that fit this design and are proven to be military in nature. I also believe that the depth of the find is not a good indication of its age because I have personally dug items at 1" that were in undisturbed soil that were late 18th century, while also digging modern clad at 10+ inches.
As my username implies, I do work in fire and EMS, so I am no stranger to a heated debate. I actually enjoy a good discussion as long as everyone maintains a respect for a difference of opinion. Things may have gotten a little carried away in this thread but I have no doubt that everyone here brings a great deal of knowledge and experience to the subject even if there is disagreement on the history of this piece. Let's keep it constructive and it will no doubt be more productive.

So, with what I have read, what I have researched so far, and with what my gut instinct tells me, I think we don't have enough facts at hand to arrive at a definitive answer yet. The theories given so far have merit for sure, but I respectfully submit that we need more facts.

Thanks to everyone that has contributed and I hope we can find out more. I am continuing my research and will share all findings in this thread.

Lastly, I will share what I think the piece is....... It is a really cool half of an old belt buckle that gave me a great thrill the instant that I pulled it from the ground where it was lost long ago, and it continues to thrill me with its mystery and untold story. That's why I will never get tired of metal detecting!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using TreasureNet

 

[kuger]

Very well stated and please update me with any new info you gather,as I have kept tabs on this piece myself for some time....research

 

[fireford10]

"Lastly, I will share what I think the piece is....... It is a really cool half of an old belt buckle that gave me a great thrill the instant that I pulled it from the ground where it was lost long ago, and it continues to thrill me with its mystery and untold story. That's why I will never get tired of metal detecting!"

the best thing wirtten on this thread so far, lol. its what keeps a lot of us swingin! good luck and HH from a fellow FF in coon a$$ country.

 

[firemedic]

Thanks fireford10, I may be in Missouri now but my family has coona$$ roots!

Sent from my Nexus 7 using TreasureNet

 

[Tnmountains]

Thanks Firemedic for posting. We apologize for letting your thread spiral out of control. We have good members with strong opinions and lots of expertise. It is what drives us sometimes. Again I apologize for the shooting match.
HH

 

[CC Hunter]

These small interlocking two-piece Tongue & Wreath buckles with the plain vertical anchor, and wreath with a life preserver motif, have surfaced at a number of sites across the country. To my knowledge, the majority have been found strictly in context with late 19th Century, to early 20th Century finds. John Powell is a noted and respected authority on early Colonial Spanish artifacts in North America. However, I do believe the time frame he provided for this particular buckle is off by about 100 years. Provence through subsequent years of research and compiling data from reported finds, has on occasion proven to change identification of other particular artifacts, as we note with earlier printed reference works by highly regarded authors in the field of Revolutionary War and Civil War artifacts, and others.

The popularity of fashion items follow trends and fads, as well as manufacturing technology of the era. These small anchor buckles appear to fit the time period of around 1880-1920 or so. Here is a similar buckle, that was researched to have a patent date of 1934.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/263590-1934-anchor-sash-buckle-solved-civilian-piece.html

CC Hunter

 

[kuger]

These small interlocking two-piece Tongue & Wreath buckles with the plain vertical anchor, and wreath with a life preserver motif, have surfaced at a number of sites across the country. To my knowledge, the majority have been found strictly in context with late 19th Century, to early 20th Century finds. John Powell is a noted and respected authority on early Colonial Spanish artifacts in North America. However, I do believe the time frame he provided for this particular buckle is off by about 100 years. Provence through subsequent years of research and compiling data from reported finds, has on occasion proven to change identification of other particular artifacts, as we note with earlier printed reference works by highly regarded authors in the field of Revolutionary War and Civil War artifacts, and others.

The popularity of fashion items follow trends and fads, as well as manufacturing technology of the era. These small anchor buckles appear to fit the time period of around 1880-1920 or so. Here is a similar buckle, that was researched to have a patent date of 1934.

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/what/263590-1934-anchor-sash-buckle-solved-civilian-piece.html

CC Hunter

Thank you CC

 

[CC Hunter]

Here is the direct link to John Powell's website, and the origin of the information attributing these small two-piece anchor buckles as being Spanish.

While none are known to have been recovered from shipwreck sites, this small and delicately fashioned Spanish naval buckle form is believed to have been used on a belt from which was suspended a dirk or dagger for formal, ceremonial, and off-duty use by Spanish naval and marine officers. Only the tongue components of this tongue-and-wreath interlocking buckle typology have thus far been reported. At least some of these cuprous buckles were originally plated with a faux silver white metal alloy. Examples have been recovered at Spanish occupation sites at Gálveztown, Louisiana and Pensacola, Florida. The anchor device embellishing the tongue is very similar to that which adorns both the anchor badge from the wrecksite of El Cazador (shown above) and the anchors included in the design of the 1802 pattern Spanish naval military buttons shown in the marked button section of this website. The dates of manufacture and use of this and other examples of the type are tentatively assigned to the ca. 1790-1810 period.

Fleetpage.htm

We may note as well, that even here this information is described as speculative, and the only provenance is that two tongue portions of these buckles were reported as being found on land sites in Louisiana and Florida (both areas continually inhabited to present times, and popular resorts for swimming). Furthermore, the only attribute associating these to Spanish origin, is the resemblance of the anchor style to the anchor design on an item from a shipwreck site, as well as similarity to some 19th Century Spanish military buttons (the anchor design on the 1934 patent buckle also has the same style). Numerous other examples of these buckles however, including the matching wreaths that are not even listed in Mr. Powell's reference, have been found in sites that date to the 1880's and later (including the example originally posted at the beginning of this thread).

CC Hunter


​

 

[CC Hunter]

A further point of interest, is the description in Mr. Powell's reference, describing these buckle examples as follows;
"At least some of these cuprous buckles were originally plated with a faux silver white metal alloy."

From experience in researching numerous 18th and 19th Century artifacts, we may note that Colonial American, 18th Century European, and early 19th Century metal items with shiny metallic finishes were in fact almost without exception real silver plate, or gold gilt. The methods for using lesser value metals as a surface coating on base metals, were not commercially perfected for low cost production until the latter half of the 19th Century. The description of "faux silver white metal alloy", in the reference attributing these buckles as Colonial Spanish period, seems to indicate a very distinct possibility that this in fact the often seen shiny nickle plating that gained widespread popularity in the last quarter of the 19th Century. As a general rule, nearly all collectors of antique firearms, military artifacts, and period items, will agree that nickle plating is a near certain indication of items dating well after the American Civil War.

"Dr I. Adams of the United States patented a nickel ammonium sulphate bath in 1869. His main contribution to the process, and one for which he was much chastised by rivals, was that the electrolytic bath should be neutral and “free from the presence of potash, soda, alumina, lime or nitric acid, or from any acid or alkaline reaction.” Dr. Adams engaged in an aggressive marketing campaign for his solution in the United States and Europe, resulting in a near universal acceptance by industrial countries. Experimentation and innovation continued by Adams’s rivals, who attempted to incorporate nickel sulphate, and citric or benzoic acids to the electrolytic bath in an attempt to develop alternate plating processes. Some of these caught on while others garnered small to no followings.

In 1916, Professor O.P. Watts published a formula in the United States for a bath that is still in use with few changes. His basic formula is:

Nickel sulphate, NiSO[SUB]4[/SUB] • 7H[SUB]2[/SUB]O 240g/l
Nickel chloride, NiCl[SUB]2[/SUB] • 6H[SUB]2[/SUB]O 20g/l
Boric acid, H[SUB]3[/SUB]BO[SUB]3[/SUB] 20g/l

Temperature and air agitation levels varied in the UK and the USA for quite some time until international standards were developed in the 1930s. These standards included raising the bath’s temperature from the previously used room temperature and introducing air agitation shake up of the bath itself.

The Watts formula has undergone a few changes to introduce new capabilities in nickel plating, such as the change in the composition to produce “bright” nickel plating, which has more luster than a standard nickel plating. Additionally, a chemical composition was developed to provide for electroless nickel plating, which does not require a steady source of power to produce a current and is therefore cheaper. Both electric and electroless nickel plating are widely used processed around the world for metal coating deposition."

CC Hunter

 

[BuckleBoy]

So do you always determine a site is "Spanish",if you find Spanish coinage?I sure hope not,but since you date items by what depth they are dug,you may

Also,I never said I am right....you are the one that matter of fact stated something that has zero background and I asked you to back that up.....and you go on a tyrade about ow much I dont know?Cant handle if I am wrong?I have said several times....I am more than happy to learn anything new....as so far,I have not learned anything new,or seen anything that dispells what I have gathered from the at least 6(piecs) examples I personally know of this buckle....I have listed my findings above.

For example have dug over 30 spanish coins from sites here in Southern Louisiana that don't have the slightest thing to do with the spanish.

 

[kuger]

For example have dug over 30 spanish coins from sites here in Southern Louisiana that don't have the slightest thing to do with the spanish.

.....

 

[CC Hunter]

The mystery surrounding the little Anchor Tongue & Wreath buckles can at last be cleared.

Definitive evidence now shows these buckles to in fact be from belts on swimwear, manufactured by Jantzen of Portland Oregon, circa late 1920's through early 1940's. Possibly other companies as well may have produced and marketed these through the 1930's.



CC Hunter