Spannish Government Bullcrap!

[capt dom]

I for one have had enough of American Lawyers, Lobbists, crooked politians and UNESCO making a mockery of one of the oldest business professions in what use to be our GREAT country; Maritime Salvage. The next thing you know this Ghoule character is going to do is take a run at the 1715 fleet and its long established legal "right to work".

Using this bullcrap war Graves Act in a Court of Law in our country is about as responsible, as letting some former Gestapo Characters make a legal argument that they have some right to the gold they stripped from the teeth of those they incarcerated at concentration camps during WW2!
The Spanish Monarchy exterminated more than 11 civilizations in the name of the "Big Guy" - Jesus - and now the criminals who manipulate our legal system are about to to seize an income opportunity and turn it into a cottage industry, by making an arguement that will essentially turn honest and hard working people into thieves by manipulating public perception...

I am tired of dealing with "cattle" and peoplle who will not stand up when their rights are being manipulated.

We need to unite, stand up and do something about this....

 

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[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Capt Dom , with all due respect, but boy do you talk up some crap ! Stop playing the blame game for something that happen 500 years ago .

 

[Limitool]

Capt Dom , with all due respect, but boy do you talk up some crap ! Stop playing the blame game for something that happen 500 years ago .

If "something" happened 500 years ago why would any country care or then want back something they perceive is "theirs" after that length of time? Wouldn't you think they'd be LOOKING for it especially with todays technology if they wanted it back?

 

[austin]

I'm with you Capt. Dom, for oh, let's say 10% off the top.

 

[capt dom]

Capt Dom , with all due respect, but boy do you talk up some crap ! Stop playing the blame game for something that happen 500 years ago .

These maritime events were lost and abandoned centuries ago. Taking a position that the Spanish Occupation of the New World was anything more than two centuries of institutionalized "looting" by the house of Trade is just smoke and mirrors. American bureaucrats supporting alleged claims by Spanish bureacrats - after years of research, investment and back breaking hard work, moving holes around the bottom of the oceans just to locate whatever remains of an event that may still remain deserve and in many cases get a 100% award from the Admiralty Courts. That was, until Hillary and the Departmentt of State got involved and sold maritime salvage out over an art deal.....

 

[NHBandit]

Capt Dom , with all due respect, but boy do you talk up some crap ! Stop playing the blame game for something that happen 500 years ago .

For many years now I have wondered why you are even on a "treasure hunting" site ? Do you EVER actually look for anything other than an argument ?

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Please stop the troll pictures...

 

[Trez]

Capt Dom , with all due respect, but boy do you talk up some crap ! Stop playing the blame game for something that happen 500 years ago .

I agree with Capt Dom by the way. I have a feeling it won't be to long before this thread get yanked.

Boy just wait till Trump gets into office and hears about this...he will have a field day with this. Spain !!!! your FIRED.
We can only hope...I believe I heard Hillary arranged that deal w Spain via her Cell phone. Server Deletion ERROR !!!

Trez

 

[AUVnav]

It is interesting that you focus on Spanish wrecks, and Spanish Government involvement.

Have you ever tried working a wreck off the California Coast (read about the Brother Jonathan) or the Great Lakes? There are many military aircraft at the bottom of Lake Washington that were barged out and pushed off, yet have you ever tried getting US Government permission for any sort of recovery?
Outside the corridor, does Florida allow recovery? Cuba, Mexico?

I suppose it should be noted that firms have been given permission and contracts to work Spanish Wrecks, including the US firm RPM.

Not to point fingers, but where are the research grade papers, studies, and documentation on the recoveries from the 1715 fleet, or perhaps, the Atocha?

The US Government will always protect another Nations interest, as they will want to make certain there is reciprocity. It used to be heavily dependent on the Space Shuttle, as the US always wants permission for recovery, in case it ever landed somewhere it wasn't supposed to. The US has aircraft and assets all over the globe, and want to be able to protect them.

 

[Salvor6]

AUVnav, "Florida's Golden Galleons" by Robert Burgess & Carl Clausen has everything you want to know about the 1715 fleet including the ships manifests. There are numerous other studies and publications by Bob Weller and Earnie Richards.

"Quest for the Atocha" by the archaeologist R. Duncan Mathewson, "Search for the Atocha" by Dr. Eugene Lyons are just two of the many books giving detailed history of the vessel including the manifest.

 

[Darren in NC]

We need to unite, stand up and do something about this....

We live in a new world, ladies and gentlemen. Accept it. We are a very small majority. The archaeologists are also a very small minority. The difference is they have the ear of the gov'ts and are, in many cases, on their payroll. The gov'ts and the media are not going to be swayed by our tiny constituency. It's been tried numerous times with numerous non-profits and awareness groups. Some small steps have been made, but rest assured, we will not swing the tide of the agenda at hand. Back door deals from Hillary and the interests of the space shuttle will indeed come before us. It's just going to happen. I am spitting mad about it, and have been for years. But my anger - righteous or otherwise - will not matter. We don't have the larger interests at hand.

Let that sink in. Accept it. Yes, be mad about the loss of centuries of salvage law. But accept that we live in a much smaller world than a few decades ago. Accept that these agendas will move forward in spite of our disgust. Just accept it. Can you do that?

If you are able to accept it, you will now be in a position to create strategies. I'm not saying we should accept the premise of this new protocol. I'm just saying we should accept that it's here to stay. We live in a radically different political environment than we had in the early 80s and before. Instead of being labeled as a whiner who misses the good ole days, you can now focus on the task at hand. Move forward in researching history. Enjoy the colorful characters who sailed these vessels we so love to hear about. And enjoy figuring out how you might hold and restore some of these wonderful relics of times gone by. Maybe you need to become an archaeologist yourself, maybe a pirate. But at least if you accept this new climate you're in (but don't subscribe to), you can be free to move forward.

 

[AUVnav]

Salvor: Thanks for the information.
Darren:
In regards to centuries of Salvage Law, I see where you are coming from, but would have to disagree.
The Law of Salvage was created as an incentive for ship to provide aid to other vessels that were in peril. There was an award for sucessful aide, but included indemnification if things did not go as planned.
The Law of Finds was created to reward and provide recovery efforts, so that a property owner could not simply show up and take back the recovery. (which did happen frequently)

As noted with both, in neither case does the salvor gain possession of the recovery. Possession can be granted if no owners come forward, or the salvage fee can be paid with a possession. "No cure, no pay" was the foundation of Salvage Law.

Both Laws are not applied correctly to shipwreck salvage, especially historical shipwreck recovery. The vessel is not in peril, it has sunk. The risks to the salvor are in reality, monetary. If conditions are bad, the shipwreck can be left at the bottom.

The Law of Finds has been especially mis-applied. Simply, you have a lien on what you have found. It includes no title to a wrecksite. As we have just seen in the SS Central America, the Arrest based on Law of Finds was denied, as anyone could have simply gone to the site, and claimed whatever they had found. Law of Finds does not give title to the wreck, only a lien on the find.

Historically, virtually all salvage efforts have been by a government agency or funded through a government agency. Spain did actively recover and/or attempt to recover what it had lost.


I do agree with you on several points, that it is a new world, and virtually the only option is to somehow work with a government on these recoveries. There are a few attempts, some have worked, and some have not, but land based archaeologists would gain valuable experience working with salvage crews, and vice versa. A salvage crew may find more artifacts based on research models, and provenance of the artifacts always raises the value.

 

[Darren in NC]

You are correct, AUVnav. It was to help ships in peril. However, it was also to help insurance companies recover what was lost/sunk. Prior to the popularity of insurance, gov'ts used privateers. Privateers didn't own it - they recovered it on behalf of their respective gov't. (Pirates stole it for themselves.) Later, insurance companies used salvors of their choosing. Fees were based on the difficulty and danger the salvor was in. The cargo never belongs to the salvor. It always belongs to the original owner or insurance company. But a salvor can initiate salvage, too. Even today, a salvor can land recovered cargo in the UK with the Receiver of Wreck. The salvor is not the owner. The owner of the cargo must prove ownership within 12 months. If not, then - and only then - the cargo becomes the property of the salvor. So you are partially correct in your history, but the history of salvage law entails other aspects, as well.

 

[AUVnav]

Darren, You are correct, and yes, only after an owner has not come forward, does the salvage go to the salvor, depending!

In addition the UK RoW attempts to determine who the owner is and notify of the recovery for claims. here is a good explanation of what the UK ROW does and does not do. UK ROW
For wreck material that is of historical or archaeological importance, the Receiver of Wreck will try to ensure that it is offered to an appropriate museum. If you find historic wreck material, your views will be taken into consideration when placing the material in a museum and you may still be entitled to a salvage award.

I would also noted that for items found within UK territory, unclaimed items become the property of the Crown!

To the subject at hand, Spain has categorically, as the owner, denied salvage and salvage claims on its property, in fact, so has the US, and many other nations. Under the Law of Salvage, and owner can refuse salvage, and that is perfectly within their rights.

I see your points and agree, but much of what you and I are saying is very contrary to the views on this thread, so I was just attempting to explain a little about why things are the ways they are, as are you.

 

[shafergdady1]

We need to unite, stand up and do something about this....

I would think that common practice would be to make "discoveries" on private land after the fact regardless of the finds actual location. But thats my opinion. The big Odessey find would have been discovered in my back yard.
Additionally Capt Dom trolls are trolls bud. I find that this country has a rampant outbreak of people that wouldn't/couldn't ever stand up for anything and the result is a passive and weak individual. This individual is the quickest to conform to avoid conflict and try to make you feel like your being a jerk for not rolling over and accepting that which does not make common sense. A sheep will always fear the sound of a lion.

 

[JOe L]

I would think that common practice would be to make "discoveries" on private land after the fact regardless of the finds actual location. But thats my opinion. The big Odessey find would have been discovered in my back yard.
Additionally Capt Dom trolls are trolls bud. I find that this country has a rampant outbreak of people that wouldn't/couldn't ever stand up for anything and the result is a passive and weak individual. This individual is the quickest to conform to avoid conflict and try to make you feel like your being a jerk for not rolling over and accepting that which does not make common sense. A sheep will always fear the sound of a lion.

Mob mentality, being bullied? Not sure I am understanding what your saying here.
I know we are getting off subject here but, I will add my comments anyway for now.
We the people are being pushed in so many ways, rules and laws that do not make our way of life better, but actually hurt. I at times, even though I always like to question authority, feel like I just want to give up, crack a beer and sit back. why, cause I really CAN'T believe we (millions of Americians)can let our elected officials, our "representatives" , who have never asked my opinion, control us the way they do. I know they can't bow to all but damn,,,,,,, ohhh hell, I'm gonna go grab a beer.

 

[capt dom]

I would think that common practice would be to make "discoveries" on private land after the fact regardless of the finds actual location. But thats my opinion. The big Odessey find would have been discovered in my back yard.
Additionally Capt Dom trolls are trolls bud. I find that this country has a rampant outbreak of people that wouldn't/couldn't ever stand up for anything and the result is a passive and weak individual. This individual is the quickest to conform to avoid conflict and try to make you feel like your being a jerk for not rolling over and accepting that which does not make common sense. A sheep will always fear the sound of a lion.

Perhaps I was a bit naive about the"unite" part of my whinings...... But, some sort of pro-active activity even active discussion in forums like Treasurenet can at the very least, lead to a better informed and maybe an altered future reality. A good friend of mine once.... many, many years ago classified me as an eternal optimist and classic over enthusiast. I do what I can to take care of my own and next, those in close. Some time ago a brief post about one fellow poster, who was having health issues, on Treasurenet ended up having a very positive result...

My original new thread was to raise awareness to whole issue and not have it be just one sided... To those who responded with personal slurs... "Well, do you Know What the China Man Said..." Your opinion of me means jack... do, do

 

[d2]

As much as I would like to be a "sure enough treasure hunter", out in the oceans, alas I can't due to being land locked and getting old. But I understand what Capt. Dom is talking about: LAWYERS, politicians, bureaucrats all of them hand in hand and they are ALL lawyers and out to make a buck by not doing one thing to earn it. More or less stealing as far as I am concerned...d2

 

[rico4ever]

Right On, Capt, Dom ! The greed of the Spanish Crown knows no limits ! It is the same all-consuming beast today as it was 500 years ago, except today they use legal and political tricks with corrupt politicians and bureaucrats, and their willing army of fools in the media, rather than the force-of-arms they employed to ravage and enslave the new world to extract-by-force their bloody treasure by genocide upon the indigenous peoples.

The Spanish stole these resources by force, at a terrible price in human lives, and to return any salvaged treasure to Spain is to REWARD them for their CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY !! The reality is the Spanish Empire imploded from greed. They had the world by the balls, and they didn't know when to stop squeezing ! Look at the corruption within...the conquistadores had a royal-license-to-steal. They could kill, enslave, loose havoc on an entire continent, and all they had to do was pay the Crown 20% for the privelege.....But, NOOO, they worked tirelessly to screw the crown out of it's Averia, and the smugglers also worked tirelessy at screwing each other....Backstabbing and Poisoning were LITERAL commonplace occupational hazards.

The Spanish Navy, Armada Espanola, was not only incompetent, inept, but was also consumed by the same GREED that infected their entire social structure, and every officer was trying to figure out a way to step on the guy ahead of him to better his position to make some more pesos....it was a Gold Rush Mentality that ruled the entire system. The book " Great Spanish Naval Victories" has never been written, because there aren't any. Duro's encyclopedic Armada Espanola is like a horror story of one disaster after another.

ARCHEOLOGISTS---Get REAL !!! We aren't talking about some lost civilization like the Assyrians, Minoans, or even Neolithic Scandinavians.You can go to Spain and tour the great Museums to see EVERYTHING...and the stuff is in great condition, because it never got sunk and sat in saltwater for centuries.The thought of some government paid Arkie wasting tax-payer dollars to spend years trying to clean-up and stabilize a flintlock pistol, when you can go to Spain and actually buy one in working condition for a fraction of the cost....ditto that for the worked silver and gold. If you want to pursue a career in archeology, do something constructive, like get your ass out in the bush and start digging some holes of your own and see what you can learn about meso-american cultures, and stop sucking on the public teat while riding on the backs of hardworking salvors.

And for my fellow Salvors, I agree with Darren In Trinidad that the times have changed, and not for the better, and whining ain't going to change them back. We must learn to adapt or face extinction. I love to hear of the recent successes of the 1715 flota salvors, but with the current political environment we cannot rule out that the Spanish Greed will focus on this next. Perhaps less publicity would be more profitable in the long run.

Thanks for allowing me to rant on my favorite gripe of all time. Straight out of the handbook of the Sir Francis Drake School of Anglo-Spanish Relations. Remember to google the Rebel Dive Flag.

 

[capt dom]

Right On, Capt, Dom ! The greed of the Spanish Crown knows no limits ! It is the same all-consuming beast today as it was 500 years ago, except today they use legal and political tricks with corrupt politicians and bureaucrats, and their willing army of fools in the media, rather than the force-of-arms they employed to ravage and enslave the new world to extract-by-force their bloody treasure by genocide upon the indigenous peoples.

The Spanish stole these resources by force, at a terrible price in human lives, and to return any salvaged treasure to Spain is to REWARD them for their CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY !! The reality is the Spanish Empire imploded from greed. They had the world by the balls, and they didn't know when to stop squeezing ! Look at the corruption within...the conquistadores had a royal-license-to-steal. They could kill, enslave, loose havoc on an entire continent, and all they had to do was pay the Crown 20% for the privelege.....But, NOOO, they worked tirelessly to screw the crown out of it's Averia, and the smugglers also worked tirelessy at screwing each other....Backstabbing and Poisoning were LITERAL commonplace occupational hazards.

The Spanish Navy, Armada Espanola, was not only incompetent, inept, but was also consumed by the same GREED that infected their entire social structure, and every officer was trying to figure out a way to step on the guy ahead of him to better his position to make some more pesos....it was a Gold Rush Mentality that ruled the entire system. The book " Great Spanish Naval Victories" has never been written, because there aren't any. Duro's encyclopedic Armada Espanola is like a horror story of one disaster after another.

ARCHEOLOGISTS---Get REAL !!! We aren't talking about some lost civilization like the Assyrians, Minoans, or even Neolithic Scandinavians.You can go to Spain and tour the great Museums to see EVERYTHING...and the stuff is in great condition, because it never got sunk and sat in saltwater for centuries.The thought of some government paid Arkie wasting tax-payer dollars to spend years trying to clean-up and stabilize a flintlock pistol, when you can go to Spain and actually buy one in working condition for a fraction of the cost....ditto that for the worked silver and gold. If you want to pursue a career in archeology, do something constructive, like get your ass out in the bush and start digging some holes of your own and see what you can learn about meso-american cultures, and stop sucking on the public teat while riding on the backs of hardworking salvors.

And for my fellow Salvors, I agree with Darren In Trinidad that the times have changed, and not for the better, and whining ain't going to change them back. We must learn to adapt or face extinction. I love to hear of the recent successes of the 1715 flota salvors, but with the current political environment we cannot rule out that the Spanish Greed will focus on this next. Perhaps less publicity would be more profitable in the long run.

Thanks for allowing me to rant on my favorite gripe of all time. Straight out of the handbook of the Sir Francis Drake School of Anglo-Spanish Relations. Remember to google the Rebel Dive Flag.

NOW this is my kinda guy.... blowing off steam like this is both healthy, educational and entertaining.... not argumentative.... thanks for your input...

Capt Dom.

P.S. If you are in Florida look us up...