St.Augustine Florida bans metal detectors

[Twisted One]

For all of those people saying, that metal detecting is not under threat guess what.

City expands limits on performers, vendors | StAugustine.com

According to this article you now have to get a permit through the city archaeologist to be able to metal detect in St. Augustine Florida. How long before other areas take on this same ruling?

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

A History of Mining on the Kenai Peninsula, Alaska - Grab it through Amazon!

[Tom_in_CA]

Twisted one, you say: "<IF THIS TYPE OF CIRCUMSTANCE ARISES!>" ok. I concur with that. It just seemed from the tone of various threads after the "TV show" that multiple people felt the circumstance HAD arrived. So thankyou for clarifying again.

drewan29, you say:

"Being up to date on the rules and regs is our responsibility it's not going to fly with the LEO, Park Rangers or Conservation officers when they stop you and you say I didn't know."

I have said over and over that the best way to find out if there's any rules prohibiting metal detecting, is to look them up for oneself. Never have I advocated breaking laws. My continuing to go after someone got a "no" 30 yrs ago, is d/t I don't see any specific prohibitions, thus I feel that desk-clerk's "no" was an "opinion", not a "law". But I agree, others would see that as having the same weight as "law". In that case, yes, I'm "guilty as charged". I think a LOT of other md'rs would be on my side of this though, and ...... barring something specific, figure that this "no" has LONG since been forgotten, as nothing but a passing opinion. Is it "law" now? Perhaps. If so, then I'm guilty as charged.

Getting back to the example in my own city, you tell me then, what would you do, if you were in the long-timer's place, back then in '83 or '84? Scenario: you and your buddy have always detected the town park, the town schools, etc... and never had a problem. Yup, in full view of main street traffic, etc... The gardener gives you a friendly wave when he sees you. In fact, you've even helped him find sprinkler heads before. It never even OCCURS to you that "something might be wrong" or that "you need to ask". Then you show up at a club meeting, and a new person to town tells the rest of you that he just went to city hall, and got a "no".

Be honest: wouldn't you ask yourself "why did that clown feel he needed to go to city hall and ask?" or "Things have been just fine, and no one's ever had a problem, nor does anyone care".

Now sure, you can go "fight it" now, and demand to see the chapter and verse saying such a thing I suppose. And get your club to lobby for "permits" and so forth. But be honest, wouldn't a part of you ask yourself "gee things were just fine the way they were"?

THAT'S what I'm saying. If you use my city as a micro-example of a prevailing psychology of what can happen, that's what I'm saying.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

How to Research for Treasure Hunting and Metal Detecting From Lead Generation to Vetting - Grab it through Amazon!

[Tom_in_CA]

Ok lest anyone think ".... but that's just an isolated incident, on just a single city scale, so it doesn't apply", here's a state-wide example (and I'll post a national example of another country next if you like ). Here's example #6

First, the dire sounding link. As you can see, when you scroll down to the part about detecting, it's pretty much disallowing it:

DAR File No. 27442 (Rule R651-620) UT Bull 2004-20 (10/15/2004)

BUT WAIT, did you catch the introduction to the rule folks? Read carefully at the start, above:

"Parks receive numerous calls each year from people wanting to do metal detecting activities within the parks. The law is not specific enough that it addresses metal detecting, so .......... " (and then it goes on from there to spell the dire restrictions).

Did you catch that?? Apparently prior to this edict, it was sort of silent on the issue, eh? I mean, I'm sure you would not have been allowed to hunt around sensitive historic monuments, etc... But for innocuous beaches, back-country, etc.... , there apparently was nothing specific. But lo & behold after "numerous calls", presto, the issue is addressed.

See how that works? AND I'M QUOTING STRAIGHT FROM THE SOURCE! But let me guess, this doesn't apply either?

 

[ScubaFinder]

Tom, I too thought it was HILARIOUS (and awefully naive) that you required a commitment from us that we would change our views before you would post your argument. Yeah, uh....not going to happen, at least not by anyone with a brain in their heads. What do you want from us, all to bow down and proclaim Tom is right and we are all wrong? That's not going to happen either. I see your point, I even see where you get your viewpoint from, but I don't agree with you. That is OK, and it is OK if you don't agree with the rest of us too.

However, you are becoming a bit of a troll on the topic....anytime anyone makes a comment about getting involved you start typing and demanding that everyone agree with you. Well guess what, we don't agree with you, and we never will. Just because you think something is correct, doesn't mean everyone sees it that way. You seem to be alone in your argument....I don't see anyone standing up for you, or agreeing with you at all. I feel like the rest of us cannot have an intelligent discussion about what needs to happen without you jumping in and taking it over with your drivel.

How about you start your own thread about how asking questions and clarifying laws will be the downfall of the hobby, and let us continue to discuss ways to make changes and to make things better. I think we would all be a lot happier if you did, yourself included.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Yeah, you're right, something told me when 10 examples were said to be sufficient, that .......... the person had no intention of ascenting. You're right, anyone can believe anything they want. And it's just my risk to be taking time typing. They may, or may not, believe, and it's my risk to take the time. I guess it's just each of our's hopes to shed light on a topic. Guess I'll spare you from the further 4 examples, because as you say, minds tend to be made up.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Gentlemen, lets try to keep it civil, no need for it to look like the rubberroom here. LOL...

I can see both sides and agree with both sides on different points. I also do not believe in calling city government to get permission if it doesn' t have a sign saying no detecting or no digging i detect. I am very good about not leaving any sign i was ever there...i also research to see what the rules or laws are and i try to follow them if they apply.

 

[ScubaFinder]

I see both sides too, sorry. Not trying to be an antagonist, I promise. :-)

 

[Tom_in_CA]

ok, me too. I sympathize with the other viewpoint as well.

 

[Twisted One]

Thanks everyone, glad we can temper down.

I think we can be proactive against future legal issues on the hobby, with out being self destructive as Tom has described. I hope there will be no need for either, but due to past experience, I am pretty much expecting the worse.

Sadly I have not been in this hobby for long, and I was looking for a hobby to get me out of the house and enjoy myself. I am starting to feel that this is not that hobby, only due to the confusion on both the hobbyist and the law enforcement sides, as well as the realization that the history I would be interested in just doesn't really exist in my next of the woods.
So not only because of recent developments, but also due to my increased lack of interest. I will most likely be putting my detector on craigslist in the next month or so, and looking for a new hobby.

Thanks all, and good hunting.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

That is your call, but there is a lot of history in your area and thousands of places you can legally hunt... Your history goes back to the eary 1800s in that area oregon trail, early settlements, as well as east into Nev to hunt for gold and metorities..... I would be looking for old calvery battles with the natives as well. I just looked at a map and see lots of places I would hunt if I lived there....

Have you gone to the California site here to see if any otherhunters are near you, checked for local metal detecting clubs near you as well.

If your giving up this easy, you cant blame it on any laws or lack of history, you never really had the desire to detect.

 

[ScubaFinder]

Twisted,

If you wanted to get out and enjoy yourself, I think you picked a great hobby in metal detecting. What history were you looking for? I can tell from experience that history is EVERYWHERE, and generally your local history holds a special place for you. I never knew my home town had a civil war crossing and campground, once i figured out that it did, I had years of good times finding musketballs and buttons. Then I dove my first shipwreck in the Red River that seperates Texas and Oklahoma. It was an old paddle-wheeler, steam powered, and the wreck was about 50 miles from my house. After my grandfather passed, i helped clean out his house and found arrowheads and articles about an old indian village in an old shoe box. It was only a few blocks from my grandfathers home, and i searched the river banks there just with my eyes and found a lot of neat artifacts and arrowheads.

I think you should step back and instead of looking for a specific type of history that you want to hunt, let the history come to you. Go to your library and read your county history books. I found my first lead in one of those about a silver cache. I never found the silver, but I sure had a lot of great days looking for it. I wouldn't trade the memories of those hunts for a truck full of silver. There's a satisfaction in discovering something in a book, and then searching it out and finding the actual spot that cannot be had any other way. That is why we detect, and why I think you should continue to.

Jason

 

[Tom_in_CA]

reply

...... I am starting to feel that this is not that hobby, only due to the confusion on both the hobbyist and the law enforcement sides, .....

Redding, CA? As Th'r says, do as you want. But I too don't see how you don't lack for a million places to hunt. I'm in the central coast of CA (south of San Jose), and never run out of places to hunt here. Why would Redding area be any different? I fear you are waiting for places with neon signs that say "detecting welcome here". If that's what you're waiting for, then, you're right, this won't be for you. Because rather than looking for express "yes's", you have to just go wherever there's no express dis-allowance/prohibitions. To think otherwise, and ..... yeah, you've lost before you start.

And as far as lack-of-history, just how old were expecting to get? I hunted in your area before and got coins back to the 1800's. Aside from the Oregon Trail and gold rush era influence, you *at least* have old victorian home era things, old campgrounds from the CCC era, and so forth. But ...... do as you want.

 

[Moe (fl)]

what prompted this decision now?

For all of those people saying, that metal detecting is not under threat guess what.

City expands limits on performers, vendors | StAugustine.com

According to this article you now have to get a permit through the city archaeologist to be able to metal detect in St. Augustine Florida. How long before other areas take on this same ruling?

What has prompted this decision now after all of these years?

 

[Twisted One]

Quick history lesson for my area, as given to me by research and two of the leading local history experts, one of which is a metal detectorist.

This area was settled in 1872 when the railroad finally came through. There are several wagon tails well over grown and hidden, and used fairly often for military purposes during the periods of war. There were two major recorded battles between the Native Americans and Americans, and tons of skirmishes.
Most of the wagon trails, and almost every military used wagon trail is either covered over, or on NPS, or Federal lands. The two major battles both took place in an area that is now a state park.
The uncovered portion of one of the military routes, and both battle locations have historical monuments in place.

The next wave of history would be gold rush period, still a lot of gold to find here, but not really what I was interested in when I considered buying a metal detector. The camps however would be of interest, who knows what was lost in the camp. I found seventeen locations that people claim were gold rush camp sites. One is a historical landmark, one is now a nature preserve, the rest have been destroyed from larger mining operations, or construction.

The majority of area around me? Lassen, Shasta, Whiskey Town, all State of Federal parks. One is an absolute no metal detecting, the other two are metal detecting allowed for mineral deposits, but digging, disturbing wildlife, shrubbery, trees, grass is not legal.

BLM and is pretty much what is left, the few abandoned mines in the BLM area have been filled in for safety, and the rest are under control of current gold claims. A large portion of the rest of the BLM land has been turned into hiking and mountain biking trails.

Tom you go near that 1930's depression era CCC camp with a metal detector the ranger there is more likely to shoot someone then arrest someone. I swear that man most likely lived in the camp in the '30's It is now a historical monument as is off limits to detecting. As well as the park next to it where the lumber mill was, the bridge built by the CCC crew, and the school house <which is now a private residences> that is across the street for that park.

I know Tom feels I am over reacting to the legal policies to all of these places. I have found a section in most of them that literally say no Metal Detecting, or terminology to exclude all metal detecting other than for minerals.

And as we all know, if it is State or Federal land and you find a relic you are supposed to report the finding, and it belongs to the State, United States, etc.. per the antiquity laws.

I also found several privately owned sites of interest in my area, and every home owner told me know, I tried to explain that I would take care to leave everything as I found it, even offered 50/50 splits, etc...
Guess what, half the people that I talked to did not want me on their property because they were growing an acre of Marijuana back there. The other half probably had the same or worse on their property <a few were probably afraid I would find the bodies they hid there>.

So more or less, when I first looked into this hobby I found that federal land was pretty much a no-no right off the bat, but to see further detailing of State, and City limitations around me, it just seemed unreasonable.

Anyways, as you said, maybe I just wasn't as interested as I thought I was, but I honestly feel that it's the recent experiences that have made me lose interest, I have watched far too many hobby's that I very much liked die due to these same problems, little by little getting banned, that I just don't want to get into this one and watch it happen again.

To each his own right? Have fun guys.

 

[Twisted One]

What has prompted this decision now after all of these years?

In a brief discussion with the instructor at the local community college that teaches archaeology, he has had about 30% more students in his classes in the last year then previous, and the two years before that it was up about 10% from several years before.
Sitting in on one of his weekend lectures, it was easy to realize his stance on the subject of "looters" being in a pretty significant Native American area he has some strong feeling to say the least.

In our area we had remnants of a lot of displaced tribes all shoved into the area by Americans as the pressed west ward. So there was a lot of cultures intermingled here. He mentioned that a lot of these areas are constantly being destroyed by looters, and treasure hunters.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

You named the areas you cant hunt, there are thousands of areas you can legally hunt.



I could say i cant hunt here in Florida, treasure coast off limits in water, state parks off limits, national forests off limits, historical sites off limitd, but it wouldnt be accurate as still thousands of places i can hunt.

 

[Tom_in_CA]

Twisted one, you say regarding one type of public land venue:

" ......but digging, disturbing wildlife, shrubbery, trees, grass is not legal."

Why do you apply this to yourself and this hobby? Think carefully twisted: all such verbage clearly implies END result, do they not? Thus if you leave an area precisely as you found it (leave no trace of your presence, cover your tracks, etc....) the presto, you have not destroyed or disturbed or vandalized any "shrub, trees, grass, etc..." right? Those clause exist EVERYWHERE, in every park in the USA (yup, even ones where detecting goes on all the time with no problems). I mean, sure, tell me a single park that "allows" alterations, destruction, vandalism, defacement, digging, etc... Of course they'll all tell you that those activities are dis-allowed. And clearly they apply to the end result. To think otherwise, and sure, you may as well give up, or stick to private property. You can not define yourself in this way.

Oh sure, there's the temporary evil process of target extraction. If this bothers you (you can't be a bit discreet), then yeah, maybe this hobby isn't for you.

 

[bigscoop]

Just going have to wait and see what takes place over the next couple of years. Just hope everyone is ready for what may be coming?

 

[Twisted One]

Treasure Hunter, I named those areas because they make up 90% of Where I live, I live at the base of two inactive volcanoes, Two of the areas largest lakes, and all of these have major park areas surrounding them.


I can make excuses all day long, but none of them will justify myself, or appease you guys, the fact is the hobby isn't the relaxation I had hoped. That is all there is to it. Great hobby in the right areas I am sure. But sadly there are very few people here in the hobby, and those that are seem content with tot lots. The rest are mostly looking for gold.

Have a great day everyone.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Treasure Hunter, I named those areas because they make up 90% of Where I live, I live at the base of two inactive volcanoes, Two of the areas largest lakes, and all of these have major park areas surrounding them.


I can make excuses all day long, but none of them will justify myself, or appease you guys, the fact is the hobby isn't the relaxation I had hoped. That is all there is to it. Great hobby in the right areas I am sure. But sadly there are very few people here in the hobby, and those that are seem content with tot lots. The rest are mostly looking for gold.

Have a great day everyone.

Twisted, many would look at the "very few people here in the hobby" as an advantage, no competition. LOL....When i said plenty of places to hunt, I was looking at a 50 mile radius around Redding Ca....

Best of luck.

 

[Ray S ECenFL]

Someone needs to call and see if the ordnance applies to the beach, if they say it applies to the beach that would mean kids are no longer allowed to dig on the beach either, because of saint augustine's history the ordnance may only apply inside the city and not to beaches.

Good Point.