Borrowing From Peter to Pay Paul

bigscoop

Gold Member
Jun 4, 2010
13,487
8,976
Wherever there be treasure!
Detector(s) used
Older blue Excal with full mods, Equinox 800.
Primary Interest:
All Treasure Hunting
Someone asked me to do a video on all of this but it's really better suited for a short article, so here goes, and I'm really not trying to upset anyone's boat. I'm just trying to help to make everyone a more successful detectorist, just as many have helped me over the years with this same priceless advice.

So, are you, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul?

Turn your machine on, set it to all metal and crank the sensitivity all the way up. “This is the most sensitive and deepest mode of operation on any machine.” Everything we, or manufactures, do after this point is a borrowing from Peter to pay Paul scenario.

They can paste any name they want on all those other modes, i.e., Super Mode, Beach Mode, Park Mode, and even Colossal Mode, whatever, all of them borrowing from Peter to pay Paul in order to provide the detectorist with more conveniences. Until the day comes that they are allowed to put more power through their machines they are powerless in the creating of greater depth and greater sensitivity than a machine can achieve when in the all metal mode with the sensitivity cranked all the way up. At this point the machine is all the way maxed out. (On some machines pinpoint can be even more so.)

And when you switch from disc mode to all metal there no longer exist any recovery speed issues because everything becomes instantaneous, the machine now operating at instant recovery.

Of course we can't hunt with everything maxed out, but we can use “limited balancing” by way of all the provided machine filter settings. So this is also what all of these other provided modes are doing for us, and in many cases at the cost of performance somewhere else, or “the borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.” But keep in mind, we may not want to pay Paul and in many cases that may not even be in our own best interest, but all of those other modes with all of those factory installed presets don't care.

This is why many detectorist who understand all of this refuse to hunt in anything other than the all metal mode, or why others like myself are constantly switching back forth from a disc mode to the all metal mode, so that we're either always detecting at maximum performance levels or so we always have quick access to it whenever required, which is quite often.

It took some of the best detectorist on the planet and many engineers to pound this cold hard fact into my head and it has absolutely advanced my detecting skills and my rate of success by leaps and bounds on land, the beach, and in saltwater and freshwater environments, everywhere I now hunt. And it's only this understanding that can provide us an advantage as nothing else can, regardless what they call it or how it is programmed.

I'm only bringing all of this up because I see sooooo many post about all of these different modes, new uploads, etc., only to see these same posters posting something on down the road as to the recently discovered shortcomings of those same modes and/or uploads after they have used them for a while. YES! Exactly! As will “always” be the case! Such is the reality and the nature of the technology at hand.

Yes, I use some of those other modes too but all metal mode is also constantly in play and I'd be trying to eat an apple with only my lower teeth without it. Like I said, I use a few of those other modes too but in reality they are user convenient crutches and the only way to take full advantage of them is by understanding all of the above. Otherwise they may just end up taking advantage of you.

I really hope this info helps because, “it will once it is accepted.” Took me a long time to accept it and I'm oh-so glad that I finally did.

Just this afternoon, per example, I got these 1907 & 1800-something Indian Head pennies from my old “hunted out” city park that I frequent a lot. First, this park is nowhere near hunted out as I just keep continuing recovering more old coins and other items from this super trashy land. And I can tell you straight up, however, that if I didn't have a solid understanding of all the above and I had been relying on all those other modes and programs, etc., I wouldn't have even known these two old coins were down there. Both were deep, in super trashy ground, and my decision to investigate them further and to ultimately dig them was determined by what my machine was telling me once I had switch to the all metal mode, which is like night and day in terms of the accuracy of the information I was getting back. And I am 100% confident that I'm going to continue to keep finding old coins, even more silver coins, from this old “hunted out” city park, and elsewhere. I could have never said that or had this much confidence prior to my understanding of all the above.

So maybe take a step back and reevaluate what's really important, and/or, what is a big deal and what isn't, because I promise you that all of the above WILL have a positive effect on your confidence level and your rate of success. Go ahead and use those crutches, but use them sparingly and don't become reliant on them because they can cost you dearly.

Question for you. Are you confident that if those desired items are down there and within reach of your machine, and without those crutches, that you can find them? This should be every serious detectorist first and only priority. Unfortunately, like many, I too went the long and defiant road getting to this point.

Cheers!

DSCN5633.jpg
 

Upvote 18
Great article! Thanks for posting...
 

Great article! Thanks for posting...

On my Equinox 800, per example, I have 8 factory installed modes of operation, Park 1 & Park 2, Beach 1 & Beach 2, Filed 1 and Field 2, Gold 1 & Gold 2. In each of these various modes of operation something has been “prioritized” at the cost of performance somewhere else in the other mode, which should be obvious to everyone who has ever read the user's manual.

And this same thing holds true with all of the other user options and settings, recovery speed, iron bias, and even all metal VS Disc, etc., etc. A great deal of these “sacrifices” and “prioritizing” even outlined in the user manuals, even when they are not for those who read between the lines. “Prioritizing ALWAYS comes at the cost of performance somewhere else.”
 

Good read, I used to never hunt in all metal. Didn’t care for the constant iron grunt, now after using and understanding what it does for me i never use anything but all metal.
 

@bigscoop I agree with you 100%, I have been detecting for well over 20 years the first 5-10 years was not very serious about it but in 2008 I became really serious and started trying to learn everything I could about metal detectors and how they function, and what affects changing settings can have.

I have pretty much hunted in all metal ever since because of what you just stated in your initial post in this thread, I am one that believes that the more filtering you add in your detectors it comes at a cost so I try to run every detector I own as wide open as I can make it so as to give my detectors the best chance at hitting the deeper targets, I run my sensitivity as high as the ground will allow, sometimes that may mean running a low sensitivity just to compensate for ground mineralization, and so my detectors are not driving into the fog with the high beams on
 

@bigscoop I agree with you 100%, I have been detecting for well over 20 years the first 5-10 years was not very serious about it but in 2008 I became really serious and started trying to learn everything I could about metal detectors and how they function, and what affects changing settings can have.

I have pretty much hunted in all metal ever since because of what you just stated in your initial post in this thread, I am one that believes that the more filtering you add in your detectors it comes at a cost so I try to run every detector I own as wide open as I can make it so as to give my detectors the best chance at hitting the deeper targets, I run my sensitivity as high as the ground will allow, sometimes that may mean running a low sensitivity just to compensate for ground mineralization, and so my detectors are not driving into the fog with the high beams on
"For every action there exist a reaction."
 

@bigscoop I agree with you 100%, I have been detecting for well over 20 years the first 5-10 years was not very serious about it but in 2008 I became really serious and started trying to learn everything I could about metal detectors and how they function, and what affects changing settings can have.

I have pretty much hunted in all metal ever since because of what you just stated in your initial post in this thread, I am one that believes that the more filtering you add in your detectors it comes at a cost so I try to run every detector I own as wide open as I can make it so as to give my detectors the best chance at hitting the deeper targets, I run my sensitivity as high as the ground will allow, sometimes that may mean running a low sensitivity just to compensate for ground mineralization, and so my detectors are not driving into the fog with the high beams on
I use all metal "a lot" but honestly, I can't stand to use it all the time as many of the places I detect are just waaaay to trashy and it would be like someone constantly rattling a can of BB's in my ears......but whenever I want some additional target info, or need to create some additional separation, or hopefully generate a bit stronger returns, etc., I'll quickly switch to all metal mode.
 

I also find myself using AM 98% of the time. This started back right before the COVID mess hit us. All metal had always been an option in some detectors I used but I hated it due to the non-stop noise. It really wasn't until I bought the Equinox 800 that I started using AM more. What made it easier to handle was the ability to reduce the iron volume, and just that. Once I found that little feature it was second nature to flip out of Park mode into AM. I did that to check any questionable signals.
Then it was through other experiments during the lock down that it dawned on me just what people were talking about when they mentioned iron masking. If you're not listening to everything in the ground you can't really fathom just what your detector is trying to do behind the scenes, what it's seeing under the coil. in the past I'm sure a lot of good targets were passed over by me because of constant 100% disc mode use. I just didn't want to be bothered by all the blips and bleeps in my ears. I was expecting the metal detector to take the work out of it for me and magically announce good targets only. Here is the bad news for people , the metal detector can't do all the work for you when it comes to target ID. That was a critical mistake back then relying totally on the unit itself in disc mode, to think it could do it all and do it right. It's not a mistake I make these days.

It's really important to use AM as much as you can stand it. Get a detector that allows you to turn the iron volume down. And you will find that you've passed up a lot of good things in the past. Have not forgotten the first time I dug a weird signal. In my mind at the time there was a lot of doubt about even digging it. But again, since COVID was raging and all we seen was death on TV it seemed like digging a signal/sound that just wasn't bold and clear wasn't a big deal anymore. And it happened.. I found my first iron masked coin within an inch of a rusty nail. The nail came out first and I thought "well it was junk after all" but my pinpointer told me something else was in there still. Out came a clad dime. A real eye opener at the time.
It was not easy to use the all metal primarily, it has taken me time. Machines of old did not have the ability to turn down iron volume alone, yet still pick it up. They didn't have multiple tones, and if they did it was hard-coded at which ID (Garrett), and you couldn't change that. But these newer units do have that ability, and in addition to that you can even set the pitch of that tone and an individual volume for that segment on some.
Now I'm the exact opposite of how I once was and feel deaf and blind when running in a dis or notch pattern, just go straight to all metal. It's weird how your brain can be retrained. And these days it's almost a sickness because all that noise in the ground I used to hate it now comforts me. It lets me know when I'm in a hot zone where activity has been. It's really hard to put into words but hopefully others can understand. It takes a greater amount of concentration to listen to it all and then be able to pick out that chirp that's a good target being hidden. It takes you and a detector that clicks with you and has the features plus the right coil for the job. It's took me a long time but feel like these last couple months its gotten on another level and that is 50/50, me being 50% of it and the detector being the other 50%. The Legend is almost like an appendage to me now because it has found me so many unique items not found before. I've never found so many rings as I have in the last 2 months. They aren't gold or silver but it looks like I've tuned into the general aura of how to find the good ones if they are ever in the ground. All thanks to applying what AM can do through learning, testing, trial and error. Use AM, make a test garden in your yard and season it well with all kinds of mess. Throw in a coin or two and learn how it all sounds together.
 

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I also find myself using AM 98% of the time. This started back right before the COVID mess hit us. All metal had always been an option in some detectors I used but I hated it due to the non-stop noise. It really wasn't until I bought the Equinox 800 that I started using AM more. What made it easier to handle was the ability to reduce the iron volume, and just that. Once I found that little feature it was second nature to flip out of Park mode into AM. I did that to check any questionable signals.
Then it was through other experiments during the lock down that it dawned on me just what people were talking about when they mentioned iron masking. If you're not listening to everything in the ground you can't really fathom just what your detector is trying to do behind the scenes, what it's seeing under the coil. in the past I'm sure a lot of good targets were passed over by me because of constant 100% disc mode use. I just didn't want to be bothered by all the blips and bleeps in my ears. I was expecting the metal detector to take the work out of it for me and magically announce good targets only. Here is the bad news for people , the metal detector can't do all the work for you when it comes to target ID. That was a critical mistake back then relying totally on the unit itself in disc mode, to think it could do it all and do it right. It's not a mistake I make these days.

It's really important to use AM as much as you can stand it. Get a detector that allows you to turn the iron volume down. And you will find that you've passed up a lot of good things in the past. Have not forgotten the first time I dug a weird signal. In my mind at the time there was a lot of doubt about even digging it. But again, since COVID was raging and all we seen was death on TV it seemed like digging a signal/sound that just wasn't bold and clear wasn't a big deal anymore. And it happened.. I found my first iron masked coin within an inch of a rusty nail. The nail came out first and I thought "well it was junk after all" but my pinpointer told me something else was in there still. Out came a clad dime. A real eye opener at the time.
It was not easy to use the all metal primarily, it has taken me time. Machines of old did not have the ability to turn down iron volume alone, yet still pick it up. They didn't have multiple tones, and if they did it was hard-coded at which ID (Garrett), and you couldn't change that. But these newer units do have that ability, and in addition to that you can even set the pitch of that tone and an individual volume for that segment on some.
Now I'm the exact opposite of how I once was and feel deaf and blind when running in a dis or notch pattern, just go straight to all metal. It's weird how your brain can be retrained. And these days it's almost a sickness because all that noise in the ground I used to hate it now comforts me. It lets me know when I'm in a hot zone where activity has been. It's really hard to put into words but hopefully others can understand. It takes a greater amount of concentration to listen to it all and then be able to pick out that chirp that's a good target being hidden. It takes you and a detector that clicks with you and has the features plus the right coil for the job. It's took me a long time but feel like these last couple months its gotten on another level and that is 50/50, me being 50% of it and the detector being the other 50%. The Legend is almost like an appendage to me now because it has found me so many unique items not found before. I've never found so many rings as I have in the last 2 months. They aren't gold or silver but it looks like I've tuned into the general aura of how to find the good ones if they are ever in the ground. All thanks to applying what AM can do through learning, testing, trial and error. Use AM, make a test garden in your yard and season it well with all kinds of mess. Throw in a coin or two and learn how it all sounds together.
You know, it's rather funny, but these days I consider AM to be the specialty mode instead of the Disc modes. It's like a truth serum when Disc mode leaves us uncertain.
 

Very practical information, thank you. Sometimes I spend quite a bit of time over an area giving signals, going from AM to some discrimination, swinging slowly one way and then 90 degrees and maybe angles, all the time listening to the detector and trying to discern the nature of the targets. I'm old enough so that I usually have lots of patience and not much strength for digging and getting down and up, so I put more effort standing up and trying to figure out whether it is worth it to dig or whether to pass on.
 

Very practical information, thank you. Sometimes I spend quite a bit of time over an area giving signals, going from AM to some discrimination, swinging slowly one way and then 90 degrees and maybe angles, all the time listening to the detector and trying to discern the nature of the targets. I'm old enough so that I usually have lots of patience and not much strength for digging and getting down and up, so I put more effort standing up and trying to figure out whether it is worth it to dig or whether to pass on.
I hear ya!
 

With the Minelabs I hunted in AM mostly. Noisy yes in the iron.
Yet with the Deus 1&2 I have just tweaked the programs.
I can still hear the iron though.

I guess the only way to really know if the other programs are missing the IH is to go through the different presets to see which ones don't pick it up.
Note: It will be a bit of a crap shoot not really knowing what the AM detected to begin with.
 

Note: It will be a bit of a crap shoot not really knowing what the AM detected to begin with.
That's part of the problem. If you get a signal in one program and then check it with others, you're still not going to know for absolute certain without digging it up. That's bad enough, but the other problem is if you don't get a signal in the program you're using, you wouldn't even know to check it in the others.
 

That's part of the problem. If you get a signal in one program and then check it with others, you're still not going to know for absolute certain without digging it up. That's bad enough, but the other problem is if you don't get a signal in the program you're using, you wouldn't even know to check it in the others.
This is true. What we really need is a better separation algorithm and better Target ID definition regardless of which mode we are in. And just how effective can any detector be when you get fatigued listening to the rapid machine gun fire tones? It does take some conditioning in order to stand it for long periods of time. Iron is still a problem however in my opinion it is not the biggest problem today. Aluminum is. Now this will depend on where people hunt too but aluminum is everywhere that iron is and then some.

What needs to happen is for a company to find a way to differentiate between that aluminum and other non-ferrous metals. Or a "selective" scan mode that can see more than pure conductivity alone. How about reflectivity, sort of how sonar works. I would think that an older object in the ground for 100 years would reflect signals differently than a 4 year old piece of aluminum can slaw or a pull tab. To anyone that has used "fish finders" you know you can also "zoom" into a certain depth and pretty much not be bothered by what is above that.. Imagine how such an ability would benefit metal detecting. If you only want to see everything beyond 1,2,3, or 4 inches it could do that. How? By selectively looking at signal strength and an algorithm could be coded to where timing was a factor. How? How long does it take x khz frequency to travel from 0-2 inches and return? See, this is a timing thing too. But anyway, call me crazy if you like, I'm thinking outside the box here and attempting to inject a new line of thinking on what exactly it means to detect.
I'm not an engineer or anything like that, just a person who has tinkered around with anything could tear apart for 50 years. LOL
 

Iron is still a problem however in my opinion it is not the biggest problem today. Aluminum is. Now this will depend on where people hunt too but aluminum is everywhere that iron is and then some.
Aluminum is a big annoyance where it is present, but it is certainly not "everywhere that iron is". I've got an 1800's house site that I hunt where there is a ton of iron, and I have not found a single piece of aluminum, and don't expect to. This site was abandoned long before aluminum came into vogue.

How long does it take x khz frequency to travel from 0-2 inches and return?
I don't think metal detectors (most of them anyway) operate this way. They don't send a "pulse" of radio frequency, it's just "always on". So there is no "start time" to measure timing from. It's just a continuous RF field being generated by one side of the coil, and read by the other side. It is disturbances to that field which get interpreted as signals. So there's nothing to "time". Pulse induction detectors might be able to do what you want, but most consumer metal detectors are not PI detectors.
 

Aluminum is a big annoyance where it is present, but it is certainly not "everywhere that iron is". I've got an 1800's house site that I hunt where there is a ton of iron, and I have not found a single piece of aluminum, and don't expect to. This site was abandoned long before aluminum came into vogue.
Uh-oh... 😲 My permission is an 1850 farmhouse that was clad in aluminum at some point. I'm finding (chasing) aluminum signals near the house (where I would expect them) but little aluminum snippets/shavings (same color/paint) are popping up a hundred feet away from the house as well.

Iron is everywhere. Near the house, the concentration of rusty nails is higher, but I'm digging them anywhere/everywhere. If it isn't nails, it's other fasteners, strapping, hardware, random hunks of steel pipe, random lumps of dog knows what...

I guess I'd have to say the iron is still worse than the aluminum. The aluminum was applied/dropped all in one year; the nails & other iron have been accumulating for 170 years.

Mix in the hot rocks, hot soil, EMI from overhead wires, and some of the weird... stuff I'm unearthing, and it's an education in and of itself. I tried the General Program (All Metal?) and the noise confusion was intolerable; I lose focus in minutes, and risk a migraine. No thanks.

For a test patch, I chose the smaller half of the front yard (split by the front sidewalk). It's about 50' x 25'; I can scan it (to my satisfaction) in about an hour; I can scan & dig it in 2-3 hours--my current limit. I pounded the jeebus out of it twice with the General Program; once with each coil, and in both directions (N/S, E/W).

Then I started cycling through other programs on the same piece of dirt. I've scanned this ground so many times, my holes are becoming trenches (hyperbole).
 

When the machine is turned on the field creates something of a halo effect around the coil, top, bottom, and even extending out from the sides. When we swing the coil we are actually swinging the field and it, in turn, makes contact with both ferrous and non-ferrous items in the ground. It's these disruptions inside the search field that are then analyzed which generates the returns.

Filters such as ground balance, sensitivity, ect., help us to minimizing the amount of noise/information that is being returned to our ears, but all of that noise/information is still being processed by the machine. We've just used filters to restrict how much, and what type of noise/information, we want to hear.

Also, the larger the search coil then the larger and more volatile the search field simply because there is more noise/information in that larger halo/search field. Thus, whenever we encounter more noise/information we end up having to apply more filtering in order to achieve a tolerable state of operation.

This is why they make small coils to deal with places of trash content, etc. These smaller coils allow us to operate with much smaller search fields and thus far less filtering so we can achieve maximum performance.
 

Look, there has been “a lot” of misleading information and marketing in recent years as to the performance of the various machines and their program capabilities. And that's just a cold hard fact.

Today's detectorist aren't patient people, for the most part, and your machine manufactures are simply doing their best to try to satisfy that rapidly growing, “turn on and go” market. Today's detectorist desire to cover more ground more quickly and the only way that can be provided to them is by cheating the process. Thus we now have machines with standard larger coils, more presets and programming, ect., all of this amounting to nothing more than shortcuts.

Plain and simple, if you're hunting trashy areas or highly mineralized ground “use a smaller coil” and thus reduce the size of the search field so you can apply "less filtering", not more. “More filtering is never a good thing.” User conveniences such as presets and programmable options “always come at a cost somewhere else.” And at times that cost can often be substantial.

We can play with presets and programs until the cows come home but that larger coil will never outperform the smaller one that is running smoothly and its search field at maximum performance with only “very minimal filtering” by comparison.

Personally, I would never own a machine that didn't offer me the options of smaller coil sizes because despite all of their bells and whistles these are just general use toys the minute they are put in a discrimination mode of operation. In this circumstance it is impossible to achieve maximum discrimination and separation performance from these larger search fields in a wide variety of conditions. All one can do is fuss with those various presets and programs to, ironically, their own disadvantage.
 

Someone asked me to do a video on all of this but it's really better suited for a short article, so here goes, and I'm really not trying to upset anyone's boat. I'm just trying to help to make everyone a more successful detectorist, just as many have helped me over the years with this same priceless advice.

So, are you, borrowing from Peter to pay Paul?

Turn your machine on, set it to all metal and crank the sensitivity all the way up. “This is the most sensitive and deepest mode of operation on any machine.” Everything we, or manufactures, do after this point is a borrowing from Peter to pay Paul scenario.

They can paste any name they want on all those other modes, i.e., Super Mode, Beach Mode, Park Mode, and even Colossal Mode, whatever, all of them borrowing from Peter to pay Paul in order to provide the detectorist with more conveniences. Until the day comes that they are allowed to put more power through their machines they are powerless in the creating of greater depth and greater sensitivity than a machine can achieve when in the all metal mode with the sensitivity cranked all the way up. At this point the machine is all the way maxed out. (On some machines pinpoint can be even more so.)

And when you switch from disc mode to all metal there no longer exist any recovery speed issues because everything becomes instantaneous, the machine now operating at instant recovery.

Of course we can't hunt with everything maxed out, but we can use “limited balancing” by way of all the provided machine filter settings. So this is also what all of these other provided modes are doing for us, and in many cases at the cost of performance somewhere else, or “the borrowing from Peter to pay Paul.” But keep in mind, we may not want to pay Paul and in many cases that may not even be in our own best interest, but all of those other modes with all of those factory installed presets don't care.

This is why many detectorist who understand all of this refuse to hunt in anything other than the all metal mode, or why others like myself are constantly switching back forth from a disc mode to the all metal mode, so that we're either always detecting at maximum performance levels or so we always have quick access to it whenever required, which is quite often.

It took some of the best detectorist on the planet and many engineers to pound this cold hard fact into my head and it has absolutely advanced my detecting skills and my rate of success by leaps and bounds on land, the beach, and in saltwater and freshwater environments, everywhere I now hunt. And it's only this understanding that can provide us an advantage as nothing else can, regardless what they call it or how it is programmed.

I'm only bringing all of this up because I see sooooo many post about all of these different modes, new uploads, etc., only to see these same posters posting something on down the road as to the recently discovered shortcomings of those same modes and/or uploads after they have used them for a while. YES! Exactly! As will “always” be the case! Such is the reality and the nature of the technology at hand.

Yes, I use some of those other modes too but all metal mode is also constantly in play and I'd be trying to eat an apple with only my lower teeth without it. Like I said, I use a few of those other modes too but in reality they are user convenient crutches and the only way to take full advantage of them is by understanding all of the above. Otherwise they may just end up taking advantage of you.

I really hope this info helps because, “it will once it is accepted.” Took me a long time to accept it and I'm oh-so glad that I finally did.

Just this afternoon, per example, I got these 1907 & 1800-something Indian Head pennies from my old “hunted out” city park that I frequent a lot. First, this park is nowhere near hunted out as I just keep continuing recovering more old coins and other items from this super trashy land. And I can tell you straight up, however, that if I didn't have a solid understanding of all the above and I had been relying on all those other modes and programs, etc., I wouldn't have even known these two old coins were down there. Both were deep, in super trashy ground, and my decision to investigate them further and to ultimately dig them was determined by what my machine was telling me once I had switch to the all metal mode, which is like night and day in terms of the accuracy of the information I was getting back. And I am 100% confident that I'm going to continue to keep finding old coins, even more silver coins, from this old “hunted out” city park, and elsewhere. I could have never said that or had this much confidence prior to my understanding of all the above.

So maybe take a step back and reevaluate what's really important, and/or, what is a big deal and what isn't, because I promise you that all of the above WILL have a positive effect on your confidence level and your rate of success. Go ahead and use those crutches, but use them sparingly and don't become reliant on them because they can cost you dearly.

Question for you. Are you confident that if those desired items are down there and within reach of your machine, and without those crutches, that you can find them? This should be every serious detectorist first and only priority. Unfortunately, like many, I too went the long and defiant road getting to this point.

Cheers!

View attachment 2153263
I really enjoyed your article,It sure gave me a lot to digest, but I can't wait to try it out on spots I already hunted,My friend told me if I get a better machine I would find items I previously missed,I'm not sure about that as I have only used one detector,and do have confidence in my machine and have learned to read it well in the areas I hunt,I have noticed it definitely reads different in different areas though.Any advice is greatly appreciated.Thanks everyone
 

Look, there has been “a lot” of misleading information and marketing in recent years as to the performance of the various machines and their program capabilities. And that's just a cold hard fact.

Today's detectorist aren't patient people, for the most part, and your machine manufactures are simply doing their best to try to satisfy that rapidly growing, “turn on and go” market. Today's detectorist desire to cover more ground more quickly and the only way that can be provided to them is by cheating the process. Thus we now have machines with standard larger coils, more presets and programming, ect., all of this amounting to nothing more than shortcuts.

Plain and simple, if you're hunting trashy areas or highly mineralized ground “use a smaller coil” and thus reduce the size of the search field so you can apply "less filtering", not more. “More filtering is never a good thing.” User conveniences such as presets and programmable options “always come at a cost somewhere else.” And at times that cost can often be substantial.

We can play with presets and programs until the cows come home but that larger coil will never outperform the smaller one that is running smoothly and its search field at maximum performance with only “very minimal filtering” by comparison.

Personally, I would never own a machine that didn't offer me the options of smaller coil sizes because despite all of their bells and whistles these are just general use toys the minute they are put in a discrimination mode of operation. In this circumstance it is impossible to achieve maximum discrimination and separation performance from these larger search fields in a wide variety of conditions. All one can do is fuss with those various presets and programs to, ironically, their own disadvantage.
I agree 100% with you these new fangled detectors I believe they have added way to many filters and it has hindered the performance of these new cell phones on a stick detectors, i have gone down the road of these new Digital detectors and have since made a 180 degree turn and went back to a good old Analog and I am now enjoying detecting again, these Analog detectors for me has brought the fun back into detecting for me
I am finding that in a lot of cases these analogs I am now using are not only deeper but can pull a non ferrous target out of a bed of nails, I have done several test using the Legend, Deus, and a borrowed Nox 800 and 600 putting them up against the Golden Mask 7, Golden Mask 4WD, Deep Tech Vista X, and Troy Shadow X5 in every test I have done on the Ground I detect the 4 Analogs have out performed the Digital Cell Phones on a Stick detectors, my belief is because of the Analogs having Less filtering they are not hindered like the Digital detectors, and yes I truly believe it is all due to the amount of filtering that has been introduced to these new Digital so called top of the line whiz bang cell phones on a stick detectors I believe the manufacturers have done this on purpose also.

One other thing if you look at all these new detectors coming out every single one of them come out with a large coil which I also believe hinders their performance even further, these analogs I am currently using I am running small coils on everyone of them and they are all out performing these new Digital detectors
 

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