Stern Castle

[old man]

I thought I'd start this post for two reasons. #1. So Cornelius can hopefully hear from the Old Guys ( And we will need their input to answer my question about the stern castle ) and #2. To take the heat off the Partner posts. ( Give the guy a break, he is out looking and fulfilling his dreams.)

I would really like to hear from everyone on this, but especially the Experts. I don't claim to be an expert in anything.

I was always under the impression that the most valuable items in the Spanish Treasure Fleets were secured in the Captain's Cabin on a Ship. I was also under the impression that the Captain's Cabin was located in the Stern Castle of a Ship. ( Stay with me, I'm guessing this is all Basic Treasure Hunting 101 ).
Now if all this is true ? I would further go on to guess that Emeralds were as valuable for the last few hundred years, as they are today ? Which to me means that Emeralds would have been carried in the Stern Castle in the Captain's Cabin. I would also quess that both Gold Bars and Gold Coins were secured in the Captain's Cabin.

Now with all that said, I was under the impression that Emeralds, Gold Bars and Gold Coins have been found out at the Atocha Site. ( I believe the Silver Bars were stored in the hold of the Ship ) If the Stern Castle is supposed to have broken away during a second Hurricane and is reported as not being found. ( I'll get to that in a minute ) If the stern castle hasn't been found ? Where did the Emeralds, Gold Bar and gold coins come from that were salvaged at the Atocha Site ? ( Remember the big one that was just stolen from the Museum ). If the Stern Castle of the Atocha hasn't been found. Where did the Emeralds and the Gold come from that was salvaged so far ? I realize that not everything on the Atocha manifest has been recovered.

Now here is the real reason for my post. As I said in the beginning. I am not an Expert in anything, not even BS. Maybe
someone in architecture or construction will be able to answer this. If a Ships Stern Castle is Constructed using heavy wooden beams, planking and so forth and is securely attached to the stern and rest of the ship. How could the Stern Castle just float away if it was secured to the rest of the ship ? Why wouldn't it just sink like the rest of the ship ? I'm trying to learn here guys and IF this could happen to the Atocha ( The stern castle floating away ) I want to know if it could happen to other Spanish Treasure Ships caught in Hurricanes? Like for example the 1605 Treasure Fleet.

 

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[Mackaydon]

Old Man:
I have no idea about the answer to your question though I'd be quite content to find (or see confirmation that others have found) any part of the '1605s'.
Happy New Year,
Don........

 

[cornelis 816]

Old man . You have to look at a galleon in the following way . You have a long ship hold and prow section . Most of the ballast was stored in the main hold with higher values stored in the stern section . The weak point in this construction was at the section between the stern and the cargo hold . The upward force of the stern an the cargo hold was about the same ( as the volume of wood are taken in concideration ). However the weight distribution was not the same . When a ship was wrecked the heavier cargo hold would in many cases strike the bottom first . On a soft sandy bottom this would not matter too much , but on hard pan , the force on this weak section would be such that the ship would break in two . ( Look at the Maravilla !) . So.... the silver and othe less valuable stuff would be found in one place , while the gold and emeralds would be found in the stern castle . However the sterncastle was far more boyant than the cargo section. It would be taken away from the cargo section by the currents because of this boyancy . ( that is why the currents are something to take in consideration when you are looking for this missing sterncastle ) The current could have moved this section away from the cargo section ( in the direction of the currentflow at that time ) . It has all a lot to do with the boyancy , the volume of the wood structure , and the current . Just my idea . Cornelius

 

[Salvor6]

Hello Old Man. I did a lot of work on the Atocha. I also had a lot of consultation with Mel Fisher on the subject of the sterncastle. He told me the emeralds on the Atocha were contraband being smuggled back by one of the passengers. Thats why there were no emeralds listed on the manifest. Also the few gold coins they found could have been property of one or several of the wealthy passengers. Therefore they would not be in the Captains cabin.
The Atocha sank upright in 55' of water in Hawk Channel. The five survivors were found clinging to the masts and rigging above water. The second hurricane that hit the Atocha a week later split the ship in 3 pieces. The stern section (without ballast) went tumbling in a northwest direction spilling treasure along the way. They may be heavy timbers but wood floats. The current salvage team of Andy Matrocci and Gary Randolph have followed this trail for over 10 miles from the main ballast pile and they still have not found the rest of the sterncastle. .

 

[MyLuckyDay]

Now here is the real reason for my post. As I said in the beginning. I am not an Expert in anything, not even BS. Maybe someone in architecture or construction will be able to answer this. If a Ships Stern Castle is Constructed using heavy wooden beams, planking and so forth and is securely attached to the stern and rest of the ship. How could the Stern Castle just float away if it was secured to the rest of the ship ? Why wouldn't it just sink like the rest of the ship ? I'm trying to learn here guys and IF this could happen to the Atocha ( The stern castle floating away ) I want to know if it could happen to other Spanish Treasure Ships caught in Hurricanes? Like for example the 1605 Treasure Fleet.

I don't know much either, but I'll give it a shot... These ships were swiftly and easily ripped apart by the hurricane surf. The physics involved would've taken them out very fast.

Heck... Look at what happened to 95% of the modern docks on the intracoastal during Frances and Gene. These were crafted with modern tools and components, and high surf on the intracoastal ate them like a hungry fat kid in a Dunkin Donuts.

Now multiply that by 10 per the ocean, and these ships didn't last long (especially once they were grounded in the shallows).

And since it was so fast, it is easy to assume large portions drifted from the actual break-up of the haul and general structure (especially since they were crafted by wood). No doubt any sort of "cabin" or large portion would remain a bit bouyant, too.

While I've seen a number of paintings depicting the last moments, I doubt any of them are remotely accurate.

 

[old man]

Hello Old Man. I did a lot of work on the Atocha. I also had a lot of consultation with Mel Fisher on the subject of the sterncastle. He told me the emeralds on the Atocha were contraband being smuggled back by one of the passengers. Thats why there were no emeralds listed on the manifest. Also the few gold coins they found could have been property of one or several of the wealthy passengers. Therefore they would not be in the Captains cabin.
The Atocha sank upright in 55' of water in Hawk Channel. The five survivors were found clinging to the masts and rigging above water. The second hurricane that hit the Atocha a week later split the ship in 3 pieces. The stern section (without ballast) went tumbling in a northwest direction spilling treasure along the way. They may be heavy timbers but wood floats. The current salvage team of Andy Matrocci and Gary Randolph have followed this trail for over 10 miles from the main ballast pile and they still have not found the rest of the sterncastle. .

Cornelius and Pete, Thanks. Pete you answered my question about the Emeralds. That's the one thing I couldn't understand about the Stern Castle. Based on what has been said, then I guess I can surmise ( I hate the word assume ) that Every Spanish Treasure Ship would have the Stern Castle Floating away after a wreck in a Hurricane ? To me, that would be important in the salvage of any Treasure Ship. Especially if someone were on the trail of the 1605 fleet. Would it then be possible during a Hurricane for silver bars and a bronze cannons to be found embedded in coral in shallow water on one side of a narrow piece of an small Island that is just above sea level. COULD the Stern Castle of that wreck have been washed over the other side of that low lying Island ?

 

[theseeker]

Hello Old Man. I did a lot of work on the Atocha. I also had a lot of consultation with Mel Fisher on the subject of the sterncastle. He told me the emeralds on the Atocha were contraband being smuggled back by one of the passengers. Thats why there were no emeralds listed on the manifest. Also the few gold coins they found could have been property of one or several of the wealthy passengers. Therefore they would not be in the Captains cabin.
The Atocha sank upright in 55' of water in Hawk Channel. The five survivors were found clinging to the masts and rigging above water. The second hurricane that hit the Atocha a week later split the ship in 3 pieces. The stern section (without ballast) went tumbling in a northwest direction spilling treasure along the way. They may be heavy timbers but wood floats. The current salvage team of Andy Matrocci and Gary Randolph have followed this trail for over 10 miles from the main ballast pile and they still have not found the rest of the sterncastle. .

Cornelius and Pete, Thanks. Pete you answered my question about the Emeralds. That's the one thing I couldn't understand about the Stern Castle. Based on what has been said, then I guess I can surmise ( I hate the word assume ) that Every Spanish Treasure Ship would have the Stern Castle Floating away after a wreck in a Hurricane ? To me, that would be important in the salvage of any Treasure Ship. Especially if someone were on the trail of the 1605 fleet. Would it then be possible during a Hurricane for silver bars and a bronze cannons to be found embedded in coral in shallow water on one side of a narrow piece of an small Island that is just above sea level. COULD the Stern Castle of that wreck have been washed over the other side of that low lying Island ?

Hi Old Man,
Just 2 cents from someone that doesn't know much but am learning something every day. I would think that the stern castle of a wrecked ship COULD definitely wash over the other side of a low lying island given that in a hurricane the storm surge could raise the sea level 10 to 20 ft. Depending on the load weight of a fully loaded ship, they drafted somewhere around 18' to 20' depending on ship type and load. Given that reasoning, a floating sterncastle section could find itself on the other side of the island.

 

[aquanut]

Old Man,
I wouldn't surmise that every sterncastle separated from the ships when foundering. However, if it did in this case,
the sterncastle could surely go over a small spit of an island. If it did, it likely left evidence of having done so...
It would be important however to try and figure wind direction and current. The sterncastle, if separated, may also have slipped further along the shoreline. As with any theorizing, it helps to find real evidence, such as a debris trail...or gold coins or gold bars or gold anything! lol.
Aquanut

 

[stevemc]

oldman, I assume you are still talking about the Atocha, or about the Regla, it doesnt matter. Yes, both could have either dumped the ballast, and heavy bars and chests, and continued to break up and dump any remaining treasure for many miles, or onto land. Many barrier islands change the shoreline, even yearly. Many of the islands in the Gulf of Mexico and the Atlantic coast of Florida have changed greatly in the last 300 years. Some have gone towards the sea, and some have receded back. Some have old dunes still visible. Yes, treasure could be on land under a highway or houses. I did a search on the beach at Corrigan's before the beaches were ever pumped. The sand was low, at high tide the water was almost to the dune and real hard. Much lower than it ever gets now. I searched it first with my 10" coil PI, and then I searched with my 3' x 5' coil PI. I got many hits with that one, many large hits. Some pinpointed out as cannon sized hits. When I dug with a regular big shovel, I hit water-of course, and tried digging deep, but couldnt. My probe was only 3' long, and it wouldnt hit hard, even when I had dug out. So I am sure all along the Treasure Coast, there is much buried below the sands and even below the land behind the dunes. Same with the Marquesas Keys, I am sure over the years either boats wrecked nearby and were blown onto and over the islands, or people were wrecked and buried things on the little slivers of land. I found a big hole on an island in the Marquesas-(modern)in about 1990, and it went way down, it was just about 1' above seawater level, and was full of water. Several 2x8s were in the hole to prevent sand from coming in I assume. I probed it and it was about 3' deep. And it wasnt real recent, but since the last big storm. I am sure somebody had a PI and found a hit and tried digging it up. About 5 or 6 years ago, somebody got busted for doing exactly that, and they brought big equipment in and dug, and got caught. That was across the atoll from where I found a hole. About 2 1/2 miles away.

 

[old man]

stevemc and everyone else, Thanks for the replies.
Actually, Steve I was talking about the Atocha 1622 and San Roque from 1605.
Stevemc, I tend to agree with you that a lot of treasure is buried under sand on or near the beach. I was just curious about the Emeralds that were found at the Atocha site, since they apparently were not on the manifest, I thought that perhaps they were. I will say that there apparently was one heck of a lot of contraband on those Spanish Treasure Ships.
Does anyone have a copy of the Manifest for the San Roque 1605

 

[theseeker]

Re: Stern Castle San Roque Manifest

Old Man, here is a link that has a summary manifest of the San Roque as well as other ships.

http://www.oceantreasures.org/rubrique,short-treasure-list-3,1070713.html

 

[signumops]

Old Man:
I quote here from Claudio Bonifacio's "Galleons And Sunken Treasure" from Signum Ops. The book contains an entire chapter dealing with San Roque and the other ships in that fleet: a fantastic story in and of itself....

San Roque
- 2 silver bars, one with certification 1419, weight 77 marks, 5
ounces and half and with a value of 214 pesos and 4 tomines, the
second with the certificaiton of 1490, 64 marks and 10 ounces
having a value of 212 pesos and 7 tomines assayed.
- Apart from that there are 6 gold bars having a value of 502
pesos, 5 grains of good gold
- In another lot there are 28 silver bars that have a value of 6,677
pesos and 8 reales.
- 4 gold bars, one of 16 carats with a value of 294 pesos 6 grains;
one of 19 carats that has a value of 348 pesos, 2 tomines and 7
grains; one of 21 carats and 2 grains that has a value of 103
pesos 1 tomin; one of 17 carats that has a value of 545 pesos, 1
tomine and 1 grain
There were 6 gold bars in another lot; 8 silver bars with a value of 3,857
pesos and 3 grains; in another, 8,420 patacones with a value of 7,480
pesos 4 reales; another lot of 117 large and small bars of the Holy
Crusade with a value of 50,304 pesos, 5 tomines and 8 grains; another lot
of 13,327 pesos in coins; another one of 822 pesos 7 reales; and, another
of 1,377 pesos 5 reales

 

[theseeker]

Old Man:
I quote here from Claudio Bonifacio's "Galleons And Sunken Treasure" from Signum Ops. The book contains an entire chapter dealing with San Roque and the other ships in that fleet: a fantastic story in and of itself....

San Roque
- 2 silver bars, one with certification 1419, weight 77 marks, 5
ounces and half and with a value of 214 pesos and 4 tomines, the
second with the certificaiton of 1490, 64 marks and 10 ounces
having a value of 212 pesos and 7 tomines assayed.
- Apart from that there are 6 gold bars having a value of 502
pesos, 5 grains of good gold

Signumops, great publishing work on Claudio's book. I have read it several times and get more out of it on every read.
- In another lot there are 28 silver bars that have a value of 6,677
pesos and 8 reales.
- 4 gold bars, one of 16 carats with a value of 294 pesos 6 grains;
one of 19 carats that has a value of 348 pesos, 2 tomines and 7
grains; one of 21 carats and 2 grains that has a value of 103
pesos 1 tomin; one of 17 carats that has a value of 545 pesos, 1
tomine and 1 grain
There were 6 gold bars in another lot; 8 silver bars with a value of 3,857
pesos and 3 grains; in another, 8,420 patacones with a value of 7,480
pesos 4 reales; another lot of 117 large and small bars of the Holy
Crusade with a value of 50,304 pesos, 5 tomines and 8 grains; another lot
of 13,327 pesos in coins; another one of 822 pesos 7 reales; and, another
of 1,377 pesos 5 reales

 

[pcolaboy]

Just adding an account of Spanish vessels grounding and breaking up for what it's worth.

In 1705, the 600-ton Spanish frigate Nuestra Señora Rosario y Santiago Apostol, was anchored in Pensacola Bay taking on pine logs to be used for masts. A hurricance struck and drove ship bow first into a sharply sloped sand bar on the bay side of Santa Rosa Island. There was one man onboard throughout the storm and grounding event but was lucky enough to be in the forward part of the ship. Within an hour of the bow and forward 2/3 of the ship grounding, the stern castle ripped away. One would assume that the stern castle would have followed the same general course of the ship after breaking off but it did not. After the storm, the spanish made several vain attempts at locating the stern castle that contained important documents and personal valuables of the captain.

Underwater archaelogists from UWF, have performed an extensive search of the waters surrounding the main wreck site but have found no trace.

My two cents.

 

[cornelis 816]

Pcola , your two cents are worth it . What you are describing happened quite often . To understand you have to know a little about the way the ships were built . On an even keel there was notrouble , but when stranding all things changed . The Sterncastle was mostly quite a distance away from the main cargo hold . And when I say quite a distance I mean ,, quite a distance ,, The coins and stones ( emeralds etc ) were usually part of the passengers . They kept their treasure close on their body to prevent theft . These contrabands were quite substancial . Cornelius

 

[Jason in Enid]

I caught an interesting fact on a show, of all things, the Bermuda triangle. A wreck hunter found a ship and researched it based on gun size, configuration and ship size. One one ship matched the findings, a WW2 ship. The thing that made it a strange find was that it was hundreds of miles from where it sank. The only thing they could figure was that after sinking it contained a large enough air pocket to make it partially bouyant and the gulf stream drug it along.

So if a sterncastle was indeed partially bouyant, it could move a long ways with storm surge, currents, winds, etc. before finally coming to rest.

 

[cornelis 816]

You said it Jason . Cornelius

 

[Mackaydon]

Reminds me of the Brother Jonathan which gored itself on a previously unknown rock, sank at that spot then came to a final rest about 1.5-2.0 miles from the rock having 'glide pathed down' with the current; at least that is my understanding.

 

[KEYSHUNTER]

well ,not to give it away anybody know the 1733 EL LERRI that washed ashore??

 

[Trembull]

well ,not to give it away anybody know the 1733 EL LERRI that washed ashore??

http://www.n-the-florida-keys.com/El-Lerri.html


Scroll down to Paragraph: Photo of Combined links of Gold Chain. Photo Credit: Stefan Sykora For this next site
http://losttreasureusa.com/Newsletters/Volume4Number19Dec01-2006.htm read2:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_the_1733_Spanish_Plate_Fleet_Shipwrecks

El Lerri Wreck: Off Matecumbe: 24 50.753N, 080 42.867W . From 1733 Armada went down in Hurricane. English built merchant ship. 100' x 30'. Ballast stones only - no other parts left.