Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[Injunbro]

If you ever get over here I might be convinced to show you a couple of things not seen in museums or places most tourists don't get to see. Juh, was a great chief in every way except speech, he stuttered terribly (he used sign language in times of stress). He looked out for his peoples welfare, was kind to children but an absolute terror in battle. It's still argued whether he had a stroke, heart attack or fell over drunk when he died in the creek.

 

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[deducer]

Hal,

Here as promised is the picture of the remnants of the huge catch basin just north of Weaver's Needle. As I mentioned, the Apache (or others) had no need of such a thing as they did not travel in large numbers. I would doubt this to be the work of ranchers as the area is just full of loose rock and scree. This is from Terrapin pass, heading on the north slope. There are incidentally remnants of mines in the area.

 

[Injunbro]

Deducer, I've seen similar spots built @ the top of hills or on cliff edges that were used as protection for soldiers @ heliograph stations. That doesn't look like a likely location though.

 

[Gregory E. Davis]

Hello All: I first saw this site in the 1970's. It is a natural rock basin in Needle Canyon at the end of the Terrapin Pass Trail where a stone dam was built across the wash to help store rain run off water. It was built by prospectors or the ranchers most likely in the 20's or 30's. It was later washed out by a flood. I have a newspaper article to that effect somewhere in my newspaper files. I will try to find it but it will take some time so don't hold your breath for a reply soon. Cordially, Gregory E. Davis

 

[Interested Party in UK]

If you ever get over here I might be convinced to show you a couple of things not seen in museums or places most tourists don't get to see. Juh, was a great chief in every way except speech, he stuttered terribly (he used sign language in times of stress). He looked out for his peoples welfare, was kind to children but an absolute terror in battle. It's still argued whether he had a stroke, heart attack or fell over drunk when he died in the creek.

Thank you very much for the kind and considerate offer, Injunbro.

Coming back to the might deserts and mountains of the Southwest is most definitely on the list...

A few months back, I was out in South America, on the eastern coast, with a project regarding gold buying.

Have you ever visited or heard about Juh's Stronghold in the Madres?

When I do eventually get around to visiting your part of the planet, I'm going to come on an extended trip and try and visit both sides of the border and take in as much historical sites and locations as possible. With young kids, it is difficult at the moment.

Do you know much about the Guadalupe mountains in New Mexico and Texas, by any chance?


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

errr gentlemen, I must have misswd it, but that looks more like a grave, than a catch basin. clarify por favor. We have lots of them down here in Ole Mexico

 

[Injunbro]

Thank you very much for the kind and considerate offer, Injunbro.

Coming back to the might deserts and mountains of the Southwest is most definitely on the list...

A few months back, I was out in South America, on the eastern coast, with a project regarding gold buying.

Have you ever visited or heard about Juh's Stronghold in the Madres?

When I do eventually get around to visiting your part of the planet, I'm going to come on an extended trip and try and visit both sides of the border and take in as much historical sites and locations as possible. With young kids, it is difficult at the moment.

Do you know much about the Guadalupe mountains in New Mexico and Texas, by any chance?


IPUK

I've never visited Juh's stronghold in the Sierra Madres but have been told by others who have it's now a mess today overrun w/ marijuana growers & other thugs. I haven't been south of the border in @ least 10 years & have no plans to ever return. It's not like it was down there 40 years ago! There are 2 mountain ranges in New Mexico called the Guadalupes, 1 in the SW corner I know a little about but I think you're probably referring to the ones closer to the east part of NM that go south into Texas. I know next to nothing about them.

 

[deducer]

Deducer,

Is the surface of that pile, the side that we are viewing in your photograph, facing north?
The lack of organic growth on the pile seems to support Greg's idea of a more recent date.
Just a thought.

I adjusted your image only to help better explain my question.

Either way, thank you for posting it.

Hal,

It's facing south, so it would be the side devoid of any vegetation.

It's the remnant of something that was pretty big, and built in a curve against the water it once held back. That, to me, is engineering ingenuity, not something a rancher would bother with. Also the surrounding terrain is steep on both sides. Why drive cattle through territory like that when Bluff Spring Mountain Canyon (on the other side) is a much better place?

I would argue that it's definitely mining related. It is roughly below the mines up on Bluff Spring Mountain.

 

[deducer]

errr gentlemen, I must have misswd it, but that looks more like a grave, than a catch basin. clarify por favor. We have lots of them down here in Ole Mexico

Joseph, it's not a grave. It's what's left of a big dam. The rest has washed downstream, or downhill.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

I've never visited Juh's stronghold in the Sierra Madres but have been told by others who have it's now a mess today overrun w/ marijuana growers & other thugs. I haven't been south of the border in @ least 10 years & have no plans to ever return. It's not like it was down there 40 years ago! There are 2 mountain ranges in New Mexico called the Guadalupes, 1 in the SW corner I know a little about but I think you're probably referring to the ones closer to the east part of NM that go south into Texas. I know next to nothing about them.

That is a real shame that the drugsters have made a mess of what is/was a very significant, historical and deeply interesting area. I suppose because of its remoteness, inaccessibility in parts and huge mass, it is attractive to those with nefarious activities in mind, as well as those who want to experience its beauty and mystery.

I believe you are right about the particular Guadalupe range you refer to; those particular mountains are connected to the Lost Sublett Mine legend, and it has the Mescalero playing a part. That one as well the Lost Adams' are the two that have grabbed my attention due to the Apache connections.

If you don't mind me asking, amongst the Apache themselves, what did/do they consider the 'hierarchical' order in terms of durability and ferociousness of the various tribes and bands?

Thanking you again, Injunbro.


IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

I trust your judgement Deducer.

 

[EarnieP]

"Do you know much about the Guadalupe mountains in New Mexico and Texas, by any chance?"

Grew up there.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

EarnieP,

Did you ever come across the Lost Sublett Mine story?

IPUK

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Injunbro, you posted "It's not like it was down there 40 years ago! Clarify.

 

[EarnieP]

EarnieP,

Did you ever come across the Lost Sublett Mine story?

IPUK

Yes, many different versions over the years. Looked for it half-heartedly myself when younger, no luck of course.

Have been told that the Guadalupes, being mostly limestone from the reefs of an ancient ocean, are not likely to contain any gold. (Isn't that what they say about the Superstition, "wrong geology"?) However, there are some old mines in that country, of what, I don't know? I've mentioned before about the small bar of silver I personally saw that was found behind the skull in a Native grave in the foothills of the Guadalupes (Pecos Rv.). Also mentioned the possible cart tracks found up in those mountains. There was salt, a valuable commodity in the past for gold refining, and also for meat preservation in the days before refrigeration, taken from the Salt Flats located just south east of the highest peak in the Gaudalupes. And of course, they did 'mine' bat poop out of Carlsbad Caverns for awhile when bat guano was used as a valuable fertilizer. Just remembered the remains of a small old pit mine for copper in the foothills. And of course today they mine potash in the nearby desert area.

There are also tales of hidden loot from stage coach robberies being tucked away somewhere back in those canyons. Some of those stage coach tales have been tied to theories about the source of Sublett's discovery. What the truth is, I do not know. You can still see the remains of an old (Butterfield?) stage stop at the foot of the Guadalupes. (That's the area canyons I 'searched' for Sublett's stash.)
There are many old Native camps throughout the area, which is what I mainly did up there; 'looking for arrow heads' and caving when younger. There are also a couple of old 1800's Army camps in there, supposedly used by the Buffalo Soldiers.

It's an interesting area, lots of history, but gold? Never heard of a single nugget coming out of there in my life time. But then I don't get around much.

At the risk of saying (revealing) too much, if you like history, google the stories about the 'Salt Flat Wars'. An amazing true story that involved the only time the Texas Rangers have ever surrendered, the shifting of the Rio Grande during a flood which changed the nationalities of a town's inhabitants, the involvement of corrupt State politicians, the beheading of prisoners, the disposal of bodies in a well, the rescue of the Rangers by the Buffalo Soldiers, the rampaging (and raping) by a vigilante army of New Mexicans (deputies?), and more!
I wrote Robert Redford years ago trying to interest him in making a movie about the Salt Flat Wars, ...never heard a word back from him. And here I thought we were buds after I'd watched 'Jeremiah Johnson' so many, many times.

[Forgot to mention, I was once chased out of there by a tornado that dropped down in front of me as a thunderstorm crossed over the peaks of the Guadalupe. True story. (Now I know I've reveled too much, sorry.)]

 

[Injunbro]

If you don't mind me asking, amongst the Apache themselves, what did/do they consider the 'hierarchical' order in terms of durability and ferociousness of the various tribes and bands?IPUK

That's kind of a complicated question since every group has it's good & bad people. Generally the Chiricahuas were considered the best warriors but those from other groups joined the more or less warlike groups as suited their personalities. Having said that I know & am related to Chiricahuas, Yavapais, White Mountains & Mohawks (supposed to be ferocious warriors) who are kind, friendly folks. The same can be said for Mescaleros, etc.. I also know some Pimas, Tohono Odom, etc. (who are supposed to be peaceful farmers) who belong in an army, prison or a grave.

 

[Injunbro]

Injunbro, you posted "It's not like it was down there 40 years ago! Clarify.

I was referring to Mexico in general. 40 years ago you could go to Baja fishing & camp on the beach w/ no worries about anything. You could go south of the border carrying a gun & get no attention @ the border (today you'd spend a lot of time in prison) or go almost anywhere & meet lots good, friendly folks. Locals seemed very pleased to have company & happy to sell food to Gringos. Good Christian values were normal. I suppose some marijuana was grown & sold back then but there seemed to be no serious problems. Drug trafficantes didn't seem to exist. Today w/ the drug cartels it's a whole new world. We've intercepted enough pot & cocaine to kill entire cities. Illegal aliens are streaming over the border to escape the evil down there. I don't blame them for wanting to get away but unfortunately most bring the attitude w/ them that crime & petty theft is normal - I have no use for them... & that's why "It's not like it was down there 40 years ago!" & or any desire to ever go south of the border again. Sorry if this is offensive to you & yours who live there, I'm sure you're fine folks, but this is what I've observed.

 

[markmar]

Injunbro

May I ask you , when one Hataali die and is buried in a cave/vault , the tradition is his head to lie to the north , and after , if members of his family will be buried in the same cave , their heads will lie to the south ?

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Yes, many different versions over the years. Looked for it half-heartedly myself when younger, no luck of course.

Have been told that the Guadalupes, being mostly limestone from the reefs of an ancient ocean, are not likely to contain any gold. (Isn't that what they say about the Superstition, "wrong geology"?) However, there are some old mines in that country, of what, I don't know? I've mentioned before about the small bar of silver I personally saw that was found behind the skull in a Native grave in the foothills of the Guadalupes (Pecos Rv.). Also mentioned the possible cart tracks found up in those mountains. There was salt, a valuable commodity in the past for gold refining, and also for meat preservation in the days before refrigeration, taken from the Salt Flats located just south east of the highest peak in the Gaudalupes. And of course, they did 'mine' bat poop out of Carlsbad Caverns for awhile when bat guano was used as a valuable fertilizer. Just remembered the remains of a small old pit mine for copper in the foothills. And of course today they mine potash in the nearby desert area.

There are also tales of hidden loot from stage coach robberies being tucked away somewhere back in those canyons. Some of those stage coach tales have been tied to theories about the source of Sublett's discovery. What the truth is, I do not know. You can still see the remains of an old (Butterfield?) stage stop at the foot of the Guadalupes. (That's the area canyons I 'searched' for Sublett's stash.)
There are many old Native camps throughout the area, which is what I mainly did up there; 'looking for arrow heads' and caving when younger. There are also a couple of old 1800's Army camps in there, supposedly used by the Buffalo Soldiers.

It's an interesting area, lots of history, but gold? Never heard of a single nugget coming out of there in my life time. But then I don't get around much.

At the risk of saying (revealing) too much, if you like history, google the stories about the 'Salt Flat Wars'. An amazing true story that involved the only time the Texas Rangers have ever surrendered, the shifting of the Rio Grande during a flood which changed the nationalities of a town's inhabitants, the involvement of corrupt State politicians, the beheading of prisoners, the disposal of bodies in a well, the rescue of the Rangers by the Buffalo Soldiers, the rampaging (and raping) by a vigilante army of New Mexicans (deputies?), and more!
I wrote Robert Redford years ago trying to interest him in making a movie about the Salt Flat Wars, ...never heard a word back from him. And here I thought we were buds after I'd watched 'Jeremiah Johnson' so many, many times.

[Forgot to mention, I was once chased out of there by a tornado that dropped down in front of me as a thunderstorm crossed over the peaks of the Guadalupe. True story. (Now I know I've reveled too much, sorry.)]

Some good stuff there, EarnieP.

If I could, I would get chaps like you and Injunbro around a table and share a few stories with you chaps (perhaps a few tots of whisky as well...).

I suppose that is the difference between a country like yours compared to a country like mine: the opportunity to get in and amongst such a vast and varied land where there is still so, so much that can be unknown. You can still get off the beaten path here in England but you'll soon come across other folk, habitation and conveniences. In the States, you've still got places that are unchanged and still as delicate and dangerous if you do not know what you are doing.

Interesting points about Sublett. Maybe he really did come across a hidden cache and passed it off as a mine. The Mescalero Apache were still active in the 1880s there so they could have been responsible for the raid and subsequent hiding of any loot. It is a fascinating possibility.

I will most definitely look into the 'Salt Flat Wars'. Thank you for the information.

Maybe Robert Redford didn't fancy donning his buckskin clothes and mounting a horse and preferred any roles more akin to his role in 'Indecent Proposal'...


IPUK

 

[azdave35]

I was referring to Mexico in general. 40 years ago you could go to Baja fishing & camp on the beach w/ no worries about anything. You could go south of the border carrying a gun & get no attention @ the border (today you'd spend a lot of time in prison) or go almost anywhere & meet lots good, friendly folks. Locals seemed very pleased to have company & happy to sell food to Gringos. Good Christian values were normal. I suppose some marijuana was grown & sold back then but there seemed to be no serious problems. Drug trafficantes didn't seem to exist. Today w/ the drug cartels it's a whole new world. We've intercepted enough pot & cocaine to kill entire cities. Illegal aliens are streaming over the border to escape the evil down there. I don't blame them for wanting to get away but unfortunately most bring the attitude w/ them that crime & petty theft is normal - I have no use for them... & that's why "It's not like it was down there 40 years ago!" & or any desire to ever go south of the border again. Sorry if this is offensive to you & yours who live there, I'm sure you're fine folks, but this is what I've observed.

i'm with you on this...i used to go south of the border quite a bit 20 years ago but i wouldn't set foot across that border now