Superstition People, Places, & Things.

[cactusjumper]

Don,

Whilst you and your homey were in the Yucatan, would you believe me if I said there was a good possibility that some Apache were still roaming the Sierra Madre mountains even in the 1950s?


IPUK

I believe the Bronco Apache were, pretty much, gone or absorbed into the local Mexican population by 1935. A really good book on that history can be found here:

Never Surrendered Bronco Apaches Sierra Madres by Meed Douglas - AbeBooks

It's written by Douglas Meed. If you like our Apache history, you will love his book.

Take care,

Joe

 

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[Injunbro]

Don Jose, Re: "The apache never raided into the Yaqui territory, they quickly learned who was the superior fighter". The fact that the Yaquis had nothing the Apache wanted also was a factor. They had no big horse or cattle ranches or large farms like the Mexicans & many of the Mexican women were (& are) beautiful (if you're going to capture wimmen might as well get cute ones). Apache hatred of Mexicans came from the Spaniards who destroyed entire tribes & enslaved them to work for them in terrible conditions. The Injuns were told, like animals, they had no souls but could still be useful to them who did. After such treatment nothing was considered 'wrong' (not saying I agree, just the thought of the time). Mexicans, although more native than white, were considered to be Spaniards since they followed their customs & religion. Mixed bloods (before anyone gets their britches in a wad, that includes me - no insult intended) tend to have the laid back attitude of the Injuns & the chicanery of the Spaniards. The "ah manana" attitude of Mexico is pure Injun, the "gimme" attitude brought north by illegals... By the way I'm part Mohican also (long story).

 

[Real of Tayopa]

Injunbro, spoken like a true Apache, I expected no less from you As for the Yaqui, they did have cattle and things the Apache coveted, including grown food.

As for the broads, why not, if ya gotta feed them ====

The Spanish attitude definitely was a telling factor, but to counter that the Apache merely had to stay in their territory. The Comanche were the ones after the horses, the Apache were Mt / foot fighters. Incidentally for those that nay be concerned on your linage, I have 3 generations of mixed blood Last two all Mexican cept for a bit of Mohican . Oirish , French No Blue eyes among them, to the disapointment of my wife who is all beautiful Maxican senora,.I am the one with blue/grey eyes. I did my part

Incidentally, the Yaqui developed a positive poison for their reed arrows, They would coat the triangular hardwood tips with a notched tip, coated poison. There was no remedy. In one skirmish three Apache were killed by the unwounded ones trying to suck the poison out of the wound,

I lived with the Yaqui for over 5 years and am partilaly responsible for the gov't returning some thousands of Hect .of their land, according to the treaty of the early 1900's. The gov't had gradually been enroaching on their land,

 

[EarnieP]

No, the "Moquies" are actually the Hopis. They traded w/ the Apaches on occasion & both often crossed into each others territories for that reason. Traditionally correct names for people & even entire tribes were seldom used as they felt it gave you a power over them. Apache isn't the correct name either, they refer to themselves as Inde.

Good stuff Injunbro, can you give us some insight as to the Faraones Apache? How about some info on the original Siete Rios (Seven Rivers) Apache?

Found some info to my question here; http://digital.library.okstate.edu/icc/v17/iccv17p100.pdf

Little bit tedious reading but picks up about page 108 (starts on page 100).
For those interested there is some excellent info included within this link.

 

[Injunbro]

Don Jose: funny you mentioned blue eyes... Dad was a Dutchman & I have blue eyes. :? Cross a short, solid Injun w/ a tall skinny Dutchy & wind up w/ a short legged, long bodied, blue-eyed, heavyweight who tans as dark as a negro.... w/ a tall, skinny, pale-skinned brother whose 3" taller but 80lbs lighter. (hence the name Injunbro & Whitebubba). We've had great fun over the years watching the surprised looks when introducing each other! An amusing side note: my wife is a little, Swede/Danish blonde, our son is built like her. When he was about 3 we went to see the movie 'Geronimo' in the nearest town, which borders the Apache Rez. After the movie & the lights came on they discovered THEY WERE THE ONLY 2 BLONDES IN THERE. My wife looked around & said "Now I know how General Custer felt!" Our little guy walked up to a huge (I weigh 240 but he was easily twice my size) Apache, tapped him on the knee (eye-level to him) & stated in a loud voice "We're Injuns too!" This huge guy looked down totally surprised to see a little blonde white boy & patted him on the head then said gently, "Of course you are, son!" Then he looked around & spotted us & figured it out. He was visiting from NM, I knew most of the rest of the folks there.
EarnieP: Sorry, I know very little about the far-eastern Apaches. The language is somewhat similar but there's a lot of differences. The Injun side of my family is White Mountain & Western Apache mixed w/ Yavapai & Mohawk (a complicated mess). The eastern New Mexico/Texas Apaches mixed w/ Kiowas, Lipans & (although they seldom admit it) Comanches. I've heard rumors of Sioux & Shoshone in the mix but can't verify anything. Like most peoples everywhere nowadays, Apaches are very crossbred. Wanna aggravate one? Ask them if they're Yaqui or Comanche?. Several Apaches mixed w/ Tarahumaris, Mexicans, Whites, etc. but few admit to Yaqui or Comanche (sort of like asking a Hopi if they're Navajo).

 

[EarnieP]

Injunbro, thanks for the response. I know what you mean about the convoluted mixtures that can develop (in all people). I had next door neighbors years ago; he Apache, she Navajo, her ex (who occasionally visited) who I believe was Eskimo but maybe some other flavor Alaskan Native.
Then again, they all had great sense of humor and may have just been pulling the leg of their young (at the time) naive (still) gringo neighbor as we shared a few beers. Buckhorn beer, cheapest stuff we could find.

I've really enjoyed your posts, Injunbro, hope you will continue.

 

[Injunbro]

Earnie! Us Injuns pull your leg!!! (ok, even I couldn't keep a straight face w/ that). Admittedly we're hard on others & especially greenhorns.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Injunbro,

I believe that you really do know your stuff when it comes to the Apache and US Southwest history.

Would you have any knowledge about the raid carried out by Nana whilst the great Victorio was meeting his end at Tres Castillo and the subsequent stashing of the gold and silver (relieved from Mexican miners) that was cached in a cave, that Perico went to search for in the 1930s?

Some Chiricahua scouts tried to look for it during the Geronimo campaigns as well in the mid-1880s.

IPUK

 

[Injunbro]

IPUK, Nana was very old & crippled @ the time of his famous raid but still managed to cover several hundred miles raiding while still looking out for the women & children that were left in his care. The gold, silver (more silver than gold) & some weapons (guns, ammo, a Toledo Spanish spear & sword) were cached in caves in the lower Chiricahua Mountains (SE AZ) & lower Peloncillo Mountains (SW NM). It's not all in one place so if a cache was found all was not lost. Geronimo offered to take Whites there while in captivity @ Fort Sill but was refused (can't imagine why they didn't trust the old outlaw not to doublecross them yet again). Cache caves have stone walls covered w/ clay mortar & are almost impossible to identify even if you know where to look. I wish I knew the exact spots but only the area. I've found a few small ones but no weapons, silver or gold... only corn. Great Grandpa cached some guns too & I haven't found those either... as my hair goes from gray to white I find less energy to search than I used to... just ain't got the stamina of good, old Nana.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Thank you kindly, Injunbro.

It made sense to cache the essentials for times of necessity.

The particular raid and cache I referred to, took place in the Mexican state of Chihuahua, and the cache was made in the Madres. Perico who had been brought up for a time in Mexico and knew Spanish, was with Naiche and Geronimo in their last hold out band of warriors and went with a Norwegian ethnographer to ostensibly contact the still free Chiricahua in the Madres in the 1930s. He found one of the caves but apparently didn't reveal anything to whitey.

Asa Dakhlugie, son of the old venerable Juh, knew of some of the secret locations but remained steadfast in his hatred of whites and what had happened to his people up until his death in the 1950s.

Keep going Injunbro, this is getting really interesting matey...

IPUK

 

[somehiker]

"Cache caves have stone walls covered w/ clay mortar & are almost impossible to identify even if you know where to look."

Well worth remembering......
And not just for Indian caches.

 

[coazon de oro]

"Cache caves have stone walls covered w/ clay mortar & are almost impossible to identify even if you know where to look."

Well worth remembering......
And not just for Indian caches.

Sounds like one of your finds around T B's Wayne.

 

[somehiker]

Sounds like one of your finds around T B's Wayne.

Twin Buttes ?
Funny....I was just talking about that place with someone else, less than an hour or so ago....

 

[coazon de oro]

Twin Buttes ?
Funny....I was just talking about that place with someone else, less than an hour or so ago....

Yes, I didn't want to give away your exact spot, but have always wondered what else may be behind that mortar.

Homar

 

[somehiker]

Don't ask me....

 

[Injunbro]

It made sense to cache the essentials for times of necessity.

Perico... went with a Norwegian ethnographer to ostensibly contact the still free Chiricahua in the Madres in the 1930s. He found one of the caves but apparently didn't reveal anything to whitey.

Asa Dakhlugie, son of the old venerable Juh, knew of some of the secret locations but remained steadfast in his hatred of whites and what had happened to his people up until his death in the 1950s.IPUK

Some of use still cache stuff 'just in case'. You never know when you'll be unable to get to a store for food or 'essentials' (define that any way you want).
I presume the Norwegian ethnographer you're referring to was Helge Ingstad? He had some interesting times & writings but zero chance of actually finding much of anything. It took 300 years to find most of the holdouts & end the Apache wars... did he really think he had a chance to find the last few who were hiding from 2 gov'ts & countless civilians?
Ace Daklugie was a knowledgeable but grumpy old sort of traditionalist who didn't trust anybody of any skin color much. In his old age in Mescalero he probably trusted Eve Ball (schoolteacher & researcher) as much as any White. Her writings were fairly accurate except the Lozen story which she totally FUBARed.

 

[Injunbro]

"Cache caves have stone walls covered w/ clay mortar & are almost impossible to identify even if you know where to look."

Well worth remembering......
And not just for Indian caches.

The first one I discovered by accident back when I was a young buck. I was hunting in central AZ & got a drink from a spring near an old campsite complete w/ matates, etc. & looked up & noticed a hole in the rock. The hole looked really odd like it was recently broken so I poked around inside looking & found a cache of blue Indian corn in a leather bag. No Injuns had lived in that camp in over 100 years. On a whim I planted some of the corn around the spring & mudded up the cache again. A month later a cousin who worked on that ranch mentioned seeing corn growing around the spring & was bumfuzzled how it got there (he didn't believe my story about wild Injuns). I told him of the cache in the tiny cave but he still couldn't find it until I showed him even though he'd been w/in 5'. It's that easy to miss one. I'm sure I've missed way more than I've found.

 

[Loke]

...
Whilst in captivity, good old Geronimo was questioned on where he had come across the best gold prospecting spots, he replied "The Guadelupes". Naiche knew all his father's, Cochise's trails, caches, camps etc., and he replied "The Sierra Madres". A Chiricahua who was with the final band in the 1880s, actually went back into the Sierras with a Norwegian ethnographer to try and make contact with the still 'free' Apache. He was also looking for a cave where they'd stored gold bars in a raid in years gone by.

IPUK

That explorer would be Helge Ingstad who, together with his wife, found the Norse ruins/settlement at Lance aux Medows

Oooops - I see IPUK allready has named him - sorry.

 

[Interested Party in UK]

Injunbro,

Another aspect of the Chiricahua Apache pertaining to a treasure legend, is about Nana and the Lost Adams' Diggings(LAD).

There has been a fair amount devoted to it and most seem fixated on saying it was the old redoubtable Nana that was the Apache leader who led the probable massacre of the Adams party. But the point that has always puzzled me, is how would they have known who Nana was in the 1860s when the alleged massacre took place as he did not become well-known until the 1880s after his spectacular raid and he did not pass away - "unreconstructed" as those that met him in captivity quoted - until the late 1890s.

The LAD and the Sublett mine of the Guadalupe mountains are two mysteries that I enjoy delving into in my spare time due to their Apache connections. The reputed areas are still fairly sparsely settled and inaccessible in many ways, and there are enough lonely spots in those mountains to harbour interesting places. The last 'action' to take place in the Guadalupe mountains with the Mescalero was in the early 1880s with Texas Rangers if I'm not mistaken but the Chiricahua were still making there presence known in and around those mountains long after that date...

With regards to the LAD, there is a fair amount written about the "Pumpkin Patch" which was part of the mighty Mangas Coloradas' rancheria. Thing is, this location was very well known to the US Cavalry as they visited the old chief there on many occasions.

I would dearly love to know your views on the matter, Injunbro.


IPUK

 

[sdcfia]

... With regards to the LAD, there is a fair amount written about the "Pumpkin Patch" which was part of the mighty Mangas Coloradas' rancheria. Thing is, this location was very well known to the US Cavalry as they visited the old chief there on many occasions.

I would dearly love to know your views on the matter, Injunbro.

IPUK

I'd like to hear bro's thoughts too. The "pumpkin patch" was so well known that it was the site of the proposed Gila Reserve Apache Reservation in 1860. Originally known as Santa Lucia Springs, the Spanish were also well aware of the rich placer deposits twelve miles or so, as the crow flies, to the northeast. The Apaches were not in a particularly friendly mood towards miners after Mangas's murder in 1863. Bad timing for the Adams party.