SWASTIKA, Mark that off the bucket list.. ID help?

[JackalopeZL1]

Hey folks, Well today I went out to my friends property where I found the piece of Reale(at least I think) and about 4 million square nails and found a few goodies. I found a couple round balls, One .30 call and one .50 and few other odds and ends and a PIN I need help iDing. It says S M B S around a medical cross. It is a screw type pin like a military style or something.

The the neatest find for me was this Copper SWASTIKA square. It has 2 little hinge pieces on the back. But nothing else. My wife was thinking maybe it was some sort of belt buckle or strap buckle but let me know what you think. Someone posted a 2018 goal thread and asked what you wanted to dig this year and I almost put a Swastika. Obviously a super neat piece of history. Also kind of neat how it was used for thousands of years and a sign of good luck and what not by many cultures until Hitler came along.

Let me know what you think it could be.. thanks

the pin has been figured out, French Red Cross. No date yet though

La Croix-Rouge française a été créée en mai 1864, sous le nom de Société de secours aux blessés militaires (SSBM)

 

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[Gene Mean]

Wow! The swastika piece is interesting. It looks about belt buckle sized.

 

[NOLA_Ken]

it's a buckle, not German, or Third Reich related though, I remember seeing these ID'd, I'll see if I can find it real quick

 

[JackalopeZL1]

Cool, I appreciate you looking!

 

[Professor of Engineering]

Congratualtions on the nice hunt and interesting finds!

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Ok... Now I remember... There hasn'r been a consensus on these other than they are American manufacture, although they are still being sold online as "Early Nazi Supporter" buckles, but that's very unlikely, or Hitler Youth buckles, which they are definitely not.... Other people think they were made for the US 45th Infantry, and some say issued to soldiers in that division with their khaki uniforms, but a division historian has said that is absolutely not the case.

My personal thought is that they are civilian good luck pieces and probably all date to around the 1920's they were two piece with a keeper permanently mounted on one end of a cloth or webbing belt, which you can tell by this pic of a complete one...



What ever they are, I'm sure if you ask 4 people you'll get 5 opinions, but maybe you can be the one to finally get a positive ID...

 

[NOLA_Ken]

As to the pin... can you post a pic of the back? Any makers marks there? My first thought when I saw it was Swiss, but I don't know... I'll keep looking

 

[JackalopeZL1]

Wow, thanks, that is indeed it. And the pin here is the back, it is a screw style.. no makers mark that I can see

 

[JackalopeZL1]

Someone posted this on another forum. Pretty neat. Love this Minnie

WWII US MILITARY GEAR PRICE GUIDE - MilitaryItems.com

 

[NOLA_Ken]

From another forum :

"Here is the reply from the 45th Museum:

Very interesting.

There was no 45th Div "dress buckle" however, then as now, various vendors manufactured for sale to the 45th Div soldiers all manner of related items.

We have seen belt buckles, suspenders, wallets, even cowboy boots with the logo on them

Yours is rather unique, I've not seen one like it before. What becomes obvious when looking at the back is that the buckle originally came with a keeper which was on the other end of the belt for the buckle to hook into.

Michael Gonzales
Curator
(405) 424-5313
www.45thdivisionmuseum.com"

Hitler Youth belt buckle, or 45th Division pre WWII? - MEDALS & DECORATIONS - U.S. Militaria Forum

The people selling these online as "rare" or "nazi" or military have an interest in keeping that description because if they aren't suddenly these lose a LOT of value.... Once that ID is disproven, what was an expensive buckle is now worth maybe $20, and only if you can find someone who wants a swastika buckle for whatever reason.... There's one on Flying Tiger Antiques with a $225 price tag, which they claim is an "early nazi supporter buckle" but there is no such thing... Interestingly all of these I've ever seen posted online have turned up in the US, none in Europe, which is more evidence they are not German made...

Not trying to take anything away from your find, it's definitely an interesting piece and one that really needs to be researched and it's history finally nailed down. It's one of those things that will upset a lot of people who paid way too much for one though. Sort of like the "SS folding knife" I saw at the local flea market a couple days ago that is a 100% fake from the 1970's, and that the seller wants $200 bucks for because that's how much he's "got in it"

 

[jewelerguy]

"Here is the reply from the 45th Museum:

on a side note.... the 45th Infantry Museum in Oklahoma City is excellent. I've been several times and highly recommend it

 

[JackalopeZL1]

This is fun, lots of cool info. Hope to figure it all out

 

[Calabash Digger]

congrats on your finds!

 

[JackalopeZL1]

Thanks CD

 

[Molewacker]

Just a thought -

Fort Huachuca in AZ had a DI pin that was discontinued as it had a swastika type device on the pin that I sold. I'll see if I can find the photo.

I can't remember which way the arms were pointed, but since you in CA, perhaps related?

Good luck on ID

 

[NOLA_Ken]

No luck on the pin so far.....

 

[JackalopeZL1]

Me neither , I have been looking everywhere and searching every darn combo? Maybe a small town organization or something..

 

[nhbenz]

The French Red Cross that serves the military is usually found abbreviated S.B.M., but possibly they added the other S that’s at the beginning of their full name. Still it’s not in the order I would have read those initials, but one seller thought so at least:

https://www.ebay.fr/itm/Collection-medaille-SSBM-rare/183017732011?hash=item2a9cb4f7ab:g:2CYAAOSw8AhaTkVE

 

[JackalopeZL1]

French red cross !!! Sweet!!

 

[nhbenz]

Maybe... this shows the usual abbreviation, but you can see where the other S could possibly come from: