SWORD...At early 1700 field

[Vino]

Went hunting with treblehunter today.And had not so great hunt this morning. .He did find something cool.Ill let him post..Anyway after he left. I went down the road and seen this really old house (1760) the lady told me after I knocked. ..Anyway I went through me speach and told her I would share ans show hee what I find and she told me go for it but don't bother showing her because she is going to take a nap...lol..I said thanks and went on my way...15 min later I got this big signal was not going to dig but figured what the hell you just never no...Glad I did...About 1 inches down I see this sword handle. ..Was scared to pull it out..I had to stand up and pull amd out pops the hole sword. ..Felt like Excalibur! !!!!
Any help on idea would be great...I think its military. ...Lot of revolutionary going on in the area. ...

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Treasure of Victoria Peak - Grab it through Amazon!

[MissIron.Maiden]

I'm horrible at IDing anything, but usually on here they can ID a tack made in London in1812 within 5 minutes. I can't believe nobody came up with a definitive yet. Is it possible it's homemade? Or seeing as the blade is of a corroding sort , perhaps the blade is newer on an older handle? How thick is the blade and what is the handle made of? Doesn't look to be copper or bronze... Course I'm no expert... On anything.. Lol, except cats.

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

DR.ÖTEK Metal Detector, Waterproof Gold Detector, Pinpoint & Terrain Modes, Professional Metal Detector - Grab it through Amazon!

[Vino]

I'm horrible at IDing anything, but usually on here they can ID a tack made in London in1812 within 5 minutes. I can't believe nobody came up with a definitive yet. Is it possible it's homemade? Or seeing as the blade is of a corroding sort , perhaps the blade is newer on an older handle? How thick is the blade and what is the handle made of? Doesn't look to be copper or bronze... Course I'm no expert... On anything.. Lol, except cats.

The handle is made of about 2 lbs of brass..

 

[gunsil]

Vino, it is a very cool find!! You should take it to the Forks of the Delaware Antique Arms Collector's show at Allentown, PA. I believe their next show is in October. There will be many antique sword collectors and experts there and all are always eager to help with IDs. It is a huge 900 table show so be prepared to walk around a bit. It's at the fairgrounds in Allentown, get their info on google. It is definitely an "artillery" pattern sword but they were made in many countries over quite a few years. Absolutely amazing that the blade didn't rust off!! It is definitely not the CSA version, most likely a European made piece, but the experts at Allentown will more than likely know exactly what it is.

 

[Vino]

Vino, it is a very cool find!! You should take it to the Forks of the Delaware Antique Arms Collector's show at Allentown, PA. I believe their next show is in October. There will be many antique sword collectors and experts there and all are always eager to help with IDs. It is a huge 900 table show so be prepared to walk around a bit. It's at the fairgrounds in Allentown, get their info on google. It is definitely an "artillery" pattern sword but they were made in many countries over quite a few years. Absolutely amazing that the blade didn't rust off!! It is definitely not the CSA version, most likely a European made piece, but the experts at Allentown will more than likely know exactly what it is.

Thanks alot Gunsil...Allentown is only like 45min from me...I take it ur from PA.??

 

[Rick (Nova Scotia)]

As I posted before I know nothing about it. If the handle brass should be more discolored, maybe bronze though ? My "gut feeling" is that it isn't all that old.

I sent a PM to canon ball guy, he should be able to ID it.

 

[Vino]

As I posted before I know nothing about it. If the handle brass should be more discolored, maybe bronze though ? My "gut feeling" is that it isn't all that old.

I sent a PM to canon ball guy, he should be able to ID it.

Thanks..I pm him yesterday. .He has not got back to me yet. .

 

[gunsil]

You're welcome!! No, I'm from lower N.Y. state, but have been into antique weapons, swords, knives, and CW stuff for over 50 years and have been attending the Allentown shows since 69. Their shows are the premier antique weapon shows in the northeast, only outdone perhaps by the Baltimore show which is once a year in March. The Forks of the Delaware club has shows five times a year at Allentown and I usually make it to a couple a year. They also have monthly club meetings in Easton, you could also attend one of those looking for info, but there are the most experts at the Allentown shows. Folks at the monthly meetings could probably refer you to the best experts on swords even if the experts weren't in attendance at the meeting if you wish to get the ID ball rolling before Oct. I have owned a few "artillery" swords, but none like yours. There are a myriad of variations on these "artillery" pattern swords and I do not recognize the distinctive cross guard on the hilt of yours, but there is a high probability that someone in that club will. I am still floored that the hilt shows such a nice old patina yet the blade is still there on yours. There must be some mellow soil where you found it. Also the depth that you found it at could have been a factor in it's condition since the soil is often drier at depth in some areas. The monthly meeting info is on their website. Please let me know if you get a positive ID. I go fishing for the month of Oct. and will miss that show, always make it to the early Dec. show. Again, sweeeet find!! By the way, these "artillery" pattern swords were designed after the famous Roman "short swords" used a thousand or more years ago, but yours seems like early 1800s to me. If you like antique arms you will love the show, it's like going to a museum where most of the stuff is for sale, and pretty much all the folks there are very helpful. Lots of weapons and relics going back several hundred years are on display and for sale there.

 

[Vino]

You're welcome!! No, I'm from lower N.Y. state, but have been into antique weapons, swords, knives, and CW stuff for over 50 years and have been attending the Allentown shows since 69. Their shows are the premier antique weapon shows in the northeast, only outdone perhaps by the Baltimore show which is once a year in March. The Forks of the Delaware club has shows five times a year at Allentown and I usually make it to a couple a year. They also have monthly club meetings in Easton, you could also attend one of those looking for info, but there are the most experts at the Allentown shows. Folks at the monthly meetings could probably refer you to the best experts on swords even if the experts weren't in attendance at the meeting if you wish to get the ID ball rolling before Oct. I have owned a few "artillery" swords, but none like yours. There are a myriad of variations on these "artillery" pattern swords and I do not recognize the distinctive cross guard on the hilt of yours, but there is a high probability that someone in that club will. I am still floored that the hilt shows such a nice old patina yet the blade is still there on yours. There must be some mellow soil where you found it. Also the depth that you found it at could have been a factor in it's condition since the soil is often drier at depth in some areas. The monthly meeting info is on their website. Please let me know if you get a positive ID. I go fishing for the month of Oct. and will miss that show, always make it to the early Dec. show. Again, sweeeet find!! By the way, these "artillery" pattern swords were designed after the famous Roman "short swords" used a thousand or more years ago, but yours seems like early 1800s to me. If you like antique arms you will love the show, it's like going to a museum where most of the stuff is for sale, and pretty much all the folks there are very helpful. Lots of weapons and relics going back several hundred years are on display and for sale there.

Wow..That sound great..I will definitely go to the show..Thanks for the information. .
George

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Vino asked me to comment. Because most people don't read that forum, here's a copy of my reply to him there. The reason I had not already posted a reply about his sword is that I do not consider myself an expert in the Edged-Weapons category of relics. But being a relics dealer for nearly 40 years, I've accumulated "some" education about antique swords.

Sword-collectors commonly call the type found by Vino a "short-sword." Its very-basic design is based on a Roman Empire short-sword called a Gladius. Many slight variations have been manufactured ever since then. Therefore, as Charlie P indicated when he told Vino "the tips of the crossguard don't match [the ones on yours]," we must rely on close examination of small-ish details to correctly identify a sword's country-of-manufacture and time-period.

The basic type of short-sword found by Vino has been made from the 1700s into the 1900s by several European countries (most especially, France), as well as the USA and CSA. You'll see a lot of short-swords INCORRECTLY advertised on Ebay as being a Confederate one, but in reality the vast majority were not made in America. Again, the "small details" are hugely important in correctly identifying a sword as being Confederate-made.

Let's note some "small details" on Vino's sword:
1- The pommel (a large knob on the end of the sword's grip) has a smaller IRON knob projecting from the brass knob's base. That does not match up with any USA or CSA military short-sword. (I specified military because some short-swords have been made for Fraternal organizations.)
2- The grip portion of Vino's sword has parallel ridges. Other versions of short-sword have "fish-scales" on the grip.
3- Most versions of 1700s-1900s Military short-swords have long linear indentions (like a shallow trough) on the blade. The blade of Vino's short-sword appears to be entirely "plain."
4- On Vino's sword, there is a "plain" (not indented) flat raised disc on each end of the crossguard, AND the ends of the crossguard curve upward. Compare those two "small details" with the crossguards on several variations of Confederate short-swords at this link:
John Sexton - Civil War Catalog

Lastly, here are photos showing the "small details" on a US Army Model-1832 short-sword's crossguard and blade. In particular, note the indented eagle-emblem on the pommel, the raised rim on the crossguard, "fish-scales" on the grip, and the long troughs on the blade. (Enlarge the photos by clicking on them once, then clicking on them again.)

 

[Limitool]

Soooooo.... As usual CCG you do your homework and your knowledge is not questioned (at least by me). So what is this sword....? Just a reproduction? Or is it possibly an Confederate "old short sword"?

 

[Vino]

Vino asked me to comment. Because most people don't read that forum, here's a copy of my reply to him there. The reason I had not already posted a reply about his sword is that I do not consider myself an expert in the Edged-Weapons category of relics. But being a relics dealer for nearly 40 years, I've accumulated "some" education about antique swords.

Sword-collectors commonly call the type found by Vino a "short-sword." Its very-basic design is based on a Roman Empire short-sword called a Gladius. Many slight variations have been manufactured ever since then. Therefore, as Charlie P indicated when he told Vino "the tips of the crossguard don't match [the ones on yours]," we must rely on close examination of small-ish details to correctly identify a sword's country-of-manufacture and time-period.

The basic type of short-sword found by Vino has been made from the 1700s into the 1900s by several European countries (most especially, France), as well as the USA and CSA. You'll see a lot of short-swords INCORRECTLY advertised on Ebay as being a Confederate one, but in reality the vast majority were not made in America. Again, the "small details" are hugely important in correctly identifying a sword as being Confederate-made.

Let's note some "small details" on Vino's sword:
1- The pommel (a large knob on the end of the sword's grip) has a smaller IRON knob projecting from the brass knob's base. That does not match up with any USA or CSA military short-sword. (I specified military because some short-swords have been made for Fraternal organizations.)
2- The grip portion of Vino's sword has parallel ridges. Other versions of short-sword have "fish-scales" on the grip.
3- Most versions of 1700s-1900s Military short-swords have long linear indentions (like a shallow trough) on the blade. The blade of Vino's short-sword appears to be entirely "plain."
4- On Vino's sword, there is a "plain" (not indented) flat raised disc on each end of the crossguard, AND the ends of the crossguard curve upward. Compare those two "small details" with the crossguards on several variations of Confederate short-swords at this link:
John Sexton - Civil War Catalog

Lastly, here are photos showing the "small details" on a US Army Model-1832 short-
Gsword's crossguard and blade. In particular, note the indented eagle-emblem on the pommel, the raised rim on the crossguard, "fish-scales" on the grip, and the long troughs on the blade. (Enlarge the photos by clicking on them once, then clicking on them again.)

Thank you...You are a unlimited resource. .George

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

You're welcome, Vino.

Limitool wrote:
> So what is this sword....? Just a reproduction? Or is it possibly an Confederate "old short sword"?

Limitool, my previous post included a link to many photos of the various versions of Confederate-made short-swords, and there's not even a "close" match-up for Vino's sword there. But that doesn't necessarily mean it is a reproduction. It MIGHT be a repro... but there are many genuine antique versions, particularly the ones made for European armies (notably, the French Army), and the Fraternal Organization ones made here in the US during the late-1800s through early-1900s.

 

[CoilyGirl]

I concur with what TCG said as well and adding further, I believe the number of rings on the handle ( 26 in a French Import made short sword generally) can also further help identify what you have. Any foreign made artillery sword that we have owned or seen had a solid brass one piece handle. Therefore the pommel and the handle were one piece cast at the same time.

 

[fyrffytr1]

Check out French artillery swords. https://www.google.com/search?q=fre...iYCIDA&ved=0CAUQ_AUoAA&biw=1920&bih=943&dpr=1

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Still no luck finding an exact match, plenty of swords are similar, but none match the crossguard.

 

[Vino]

Still no luck finding an exact match, plenty of swords are similar, but none match the crossguard.

Yes..seems we cant find the exact match...Thanks for ur help.
George. .
.

 

[Peyton Manning]

both the iron nut on the end of the handle and the blade make me think either repop or at least 20th century

 

[goldnrelics]

wow thats awesome great find!!!! JEALOUS!

 

[Silver Tree Chaser]

Vino - Regardless of what is ultimately determined on the sword's time period and place of origin, it's a great recovery - a real eye-catcher. If the final conclusion falls disappointingly short of your highest hope, any let down will pass soon enough, i.e., as soon as you get back out there and recover something significant beyond all doubt. You could go detecting tomorrow and dig up a fantastic sword belt plate. That's how things often happen in this hobby, and its one of the best things about this hobby. Four of five years ago, I thought that I had dug a nearly complete musket rest for an early 17th century matchlock musket. Well, it later turned out to be a downspout bracket. That let down feeling came on heavy, but I was instantly cured when I found my first 17th century Spanish silver cob only a few weeks later.

I'm a member of the Silver City Treasure Seekers in Tauton, MA, and a member did recover a sword last year that I believe was identical to yours - brass handle, size, shape, and a lack of markings (from what I recall). I don't remember if they ever positively identified it, but I figured you might want to know for some background information. Good Luck. I hope it turns out to be legit - old and military in nature.

 

[Vino]

Vino - Regardless of what is ultimately determined on the sword's time period and place of origin, it's a great recovery - a real eye-catcher. If the final conclusion falls disappointingly short of your highest hope, any let down will pass soon enough, i.e., as soon as you get back out there and recover something significant beyond all doubt. You could go detecting tomorrow and dig up a fantastic sword belt plate. That's how things often happen in this hobby, and its one of the best things about this hobby. Four of five years ago, I thought that I had dug a nearly complete musket rest for an early 17th century matchlock musket. Well, it later turned out to be a downspout bracket. That let down feeling came on heavy, but I was instantly cured when I found my first 17th century Spanish silver cob only a few weeks later.

I'm a member of the Silver City Treasure Seekers in Tauton, MA, and a member did recover a sword last year that I believe was identical to yours - brass handle, size, shape, and a lack of markings (from what I recall). I don't remember if they ever positively identified it, but I figured you might want to know for some background information. Good Luck. I hope it turns out to be legit - old and military in nature.

Thanks alot silver!!!! That was really nice of you for them kind words...I look at it this way. IF I didn't dig that over load I would have never known. ..What ever it is its cool..
George