Test: Can LRL Promoters Offer Verifiable Information---Without Insults?

[woof!]

And that's Signal for ya. We don't ghostwrite his posts.

Besides which, Mike, you keep forgetting that I keep trying to steer your way exactly the kind of customers you want! I'll do it again for ya: "Anyone who wants to buy an LRL after having read this forum, they darn well deserve one, preferably the most expensive one they can afford, just spend your own money and not someone else's." We try to send Mike customers, and he does nothing but complain about it! Not much of a businessman.

--Toto

 

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[HangnMoss]

If you want proof, go out and learn for yourself.

I got my answer in that response. Demonstrative proof can't be given and my only option to find proof is to purchase one and try it out myself.

It's easy to tell when a vendor believes in their product. The small shop where I bought my detector demo'ed it for me, ID'ed some different metals, talked about the tones, and then let me swing it out back before the sale. Proof enough that it worked, then they even gave me a 30 day return guarantee.

Still haven't decided on dowsing, but I'm sure where I stand on LRLs now.

Sent from my Rezound using Tapatalk

 

[woof!]

Easy enough to dabble in dowsing, a couple of bent coathangers, or good quality rods for less than $100. And no fraud need be involved: it's a dowsing rod made for dowsing, that simple. Just like a deck of cards is made for card games, no representation that a deck of cards is going to make you a winner or even that a particular brand of cards will improve your odds.

You'll notice that LRL manufacturers always pretend that questions about whether the things are or are not a scam are always swept under the rug. There's never any serious attempt made to address the issue or to do anything that would lead a non-gullible customer to believe that the thing actually does long distance locating.

A demo that's completely controlled by the vendor, though, ya gotta have your wits about you. I don't know if Mike knows how to do a demo that might fool someone but which proves nothing. But certainly some vendors know how to do demos that could mislead a person who isn't thinking critically about what sort of performance is being put on for the client. Remember that the vendor knows the same thing that skeptics do, that the electronics part is bogus. So, the vendor knows that to do a persuasive demo, a certain amount of fakery is required. In most online LRL demo videos, with a bit of critical thinking you can spot the fakery.

Mike, got any links to Mikey Apparatus video demos you'd like critiqued?

--Toto

 

[Carl-NC]

It's easy to tell when a vendor believes in their product. The small shop where I bought my detector demo'ed it for me, ID'ed some different metals, talked about the tones, and then let me swing it out back before the sale. Proof enough that it worked, then they even gave me a 30 day return guarantee.

Careful there, Hangn... I guarantee you that if my Integrity Threshold were set quite a bit lower, I could demo an LRL to you, have it ID some different metals, talk about molecular discrimination, and let you swing it yourself... by the time I was through with you, you'd be a religious convert quoting LRL scripture and singing praise to Abbe Mermet. Like Toto said, when you deal with LRL salesmen you better have your wits about you, and they better be sharp. Once you spend several paychecks worth on an LRL, deep denial sets in and there ain't no getting out of it, you end up a babbling idiot on LRL forums trying to convince other folks what a great technology you got, that they ain't got. And bragging about a stupid rock you found.

 

[woof!]

LRL's, whole different animal from metal detectors.

1. In the case of metal detectors, there are patents which explain how they work and how to make your own if you have sufficient basic skill in such things. In the case of LRL's, what you've got is very few patents awarded because the patent examiner saw nothing patentable in the app. Several LRL patents have slid through the system by mistake, and they publicly document the fraudulent nature of LRL's. The patents spout pseudoscientific gibberish, disclose no means which produce the result claimed, and do not instruct how to replicate apparatus which will reproduce the claimed results as required by patent law. .......For anyone wishing to document the fraudulent nature of LRL's, patents are a great place to start since patents are public documents issued by governments. They're online, and if you want a copy of the examination file, that's a lot cheaper nowadays than it used to be (at least with USA patents).

2. In the case of metal detectors, there is no debate over whether metal detectors really detect metal or not. The often passionate debate is over which models are better than others, and occasionally over which advertising stretched the truth a little (as is customary and usually legal in advertising). That kind of debate is strangely absent from the world of LRL's! because after all, that's just a dispute over the best lipstick for a pig, and very few people are willing to expose themselves as fools by making such debate. I've tried for years to get LRL'ers into a discussion over the advertising, and they simply refuse to go there, because once you pull the curtain on one LRL ad you've done it for all of them. LRL'ers know, and the proof that they know is the consistency of their denial system. They know exactly which elephant in the living room they have to pretend isn't there.

3. In the case of metal detectors, the basic guarantee/warranty common to nearly all manufacturers is that the machine will detect metal, and if it doesn't do that, it is a defect in the machine and the factory will fix or replace. In the case of LRL's, if there is any sort of guarantee or warranty at all, it's usually of the general sort that if you ain't got the knack, return it within 7 days and you may get a refund. In other words, with LRL's the manufacturer refuses to make a guarantee/warranty that the LRL will in fact locate anything: if you the customer discover that the thing is useless, it's your fault and not a fault of the (fraudulent) apparatus. This is a de facto admission on the part of the manufacturer of the LRL that the apparatus itself locates nothing: finding stuff is up to you just like it was before you bought the LRL.


* * * * * * and here's what that has to do with dowsing * * * * * * * *

The guarantee you see with dowsing rods is usually pretty much in that same vein: if it doesn't work for you, it's your fault. In the case of dowsing, that's how it really is, unless the dowsing rod is an incredibly bad design. All a dowsing rod does is facilitate the user's ideomotor response. It does not detect targets.

In the case of LRL's you've got claims (usually implied rather than explicitly stated, since the vendor knows the whole thing is bogus) that electronic features enable the apparatus to locate objects from a distance. ("LRL" = "long range locator".) The gizmos don't do that, the vendors know the gizmos don't do that (in full agreement with what "skeptics" tell you), and therefore the vendors write their guarantees/warranties around exactly the same principle that's customary with dowsing rods. Users do the locating if locating happens at all: the product itself has nothing to do with detection of target objects.

So, you see, the "skeptics" and the LRL vendors really do agree: "If you want proof, go out and learn for yourself." Mike's words, and I agree with them! If you would rather learn the easy way rather than the hard way, that's what this forum is for. If you'd rather learn the hard way, send Mike a PM asking how much he charges for an educational experience. I believe he can deliver that educational experience, but learning from it is still up to the customer.

--Toto

 

[signal_line]

Yes, the LRL manufacturers that I know say it is much preferred to get instruction. Of course some people on this forum have burned their bridges and are persona non grata. They are abusive (and in one case betrayed a person's trust) then they expect others to kiss their rear. Just not going to happen that way, sorry. I'm not even going to explain what I know. Like Mark Twain said. "Never tell the truth to someone who is not worthy of it." And besides, I could say it is sunny today and they would grumble and try to disagree. It's a big game of deception to them. They want their metal detector dollars. They complain about the price of LRL's but their metal detector mark-up is probably much higher. They say anyone who disagrees with them is "gullible" and a "believer". Just about everything they say against LRL's is exactly what they are doing to people who are naive on the subject. They want you to believe I am making big money selling equipment. That is so false. I've turned down more people than I've sold to because I felt they were not experienced enough to use the rod I sell. I try to help people with it because I love it. Like I have said, if it wasn't for LRL's I would have given up treasure hunting long ago.

 

[EE THr]

I've turned down more people than I've sold to because I felt they were not experienced enough to use the rod I sell.

Another insurance technique. Personally pitch the religion to all potential customers first, then don't sell to anyone who doesn't become a "believer," because they might cause problems.

Also, if a few believers eventually loose faith, refund their money so they can't sue for monetary damages.

For the rest, if they express any doubts, just tell them they are not trying hard enough. String things out with this and lots of pseudoscience excuses (like sun spot interference and so on) until the warranty runs out. Most people will get tired of wasting their time hiking around and digging empty holes, lose interest in spending more time and effort in "developing their ability" to use the fictional device, and either permanently shelf it, give it away, or toss it in the trash.

And that's why you only see the handful of makers, dealers, and their shill promoters on the forum here....And no LRL users in the "Finds" Section.

 

[EE THr]

Here is a good example of the difference between LRLs and metal detectors---






Can anyone show an example like this for LRLs?

 

[woof!]

I've turned down more people than I've sold to because I felt they were not experienced enough to use the rod I sell.

Another insurance technique. Personally pitch the religion to all potential customers first, then don't sell to anyone who doesn't become a "believer," because they might cause problems.

Also, if a few believers eventually loose faith, refund their money so they can't sue for monetary damages.

For the rest, if they express any doubts, just tell them they are not trying hard enough. String things out with this and lots of pseudoscience excuses (like sun spot interference and so on) until the warranty runs out. Most people will get tired of wasting their time hiking around and digging empty holes, lose interest in spending more time and effort in "developing their ability" to use the fictional device, and either permanently shelf it, give it away, or toss it in the trash.

And that's why you only see the handful of makers, dealers, and their shill promoters on the forum here....And no LRL users in the "Finds" Section.

Folks, EE just provided a good example of "reading the advertisement". That's how it's done.

I grew up around a lot of preachers and learned from them the tricks of their trade. Preachers for whom it's all a con game don't like me because I read their minds, no reliance on supernatural forces needed. Just a variation on "cold reading". ........About 8 years ago a high-powered preacher from a well-known obedience cult came proselytizing door to door. He didn't know who I was. But I knew who he was, and kept him tied up for an hour turning every one of his tricks inside out, and he actually hung in there for it because he couldn't believe it was really happening. The guy was used to people not knowing squat even about their own religion.

Most of what EE pointed out about Signal's statements is straight from the preacher "tricks of the trade" cookbook. Guess EE must have had a bit of exposure to con game preachers, too.

Fortunately many preachers and priests are people of good character, they're not all a bunch of con artists.

--Toto

 

[hung]

They complain about the price of LRL's but their metal detector mark-up is probably much higher.

Ordinary metal detectors are not for treasure hunting. They are only used by beach combers and the like.
People who need to loose weight usually love them so they can get a good walk and lots of squating most of time to dig pulltabs and trash.
Their prices are high for what they can do with old and out of date technology and the propaganda is released in a way that their manufacturers fool people into believeing they will find treasure.
Unfortunately, this tricky scam still 'catches' many gullible and inexperienced hobbyst.

 

[woof!]

So, Hung, does this mean you got rid of your Minelab and replaced it with a Mineoro?

Or does it merely mean that you agree that LRL's are frauds and that you aren't going to talk about them?


--Toto

 

[EE THr]

They complain about the price of LRL's but their metal detector mark-up is probably much higher.

Ordinary metal detectors are not for treasure hunting. They are only used by beach combers and the like.
People who need to loose weight usually love them so they can get a good walk and lots of squating most of time to dig pulltabs and trash.
Their prices are high for what they can do with old and out of date technology and the propaganda is released in a way that their manufacturers fool people into believeing they will find treasure.
Unfortunately, this tricky scam still 'catches' many gullible and inexperienced hobbyst.

Metal detectors do what they were designed to do. "Coinshooter" metal detectors can find coins, just like the link I posted above. Some metal detectors are good at finding jewelry. Some at relics. Some work under water. Some are good at finding gold nuggets. Some will do a combination, or all, of the above. But they all generally work according to their advertised specifications and purpose.

LRLs have never been proven to the World to do any of those things, or to locate "treasure," at any distance.

Your attempt to term metal detectors as a "scam" is merely your last ditch effort to keep your head above water, after having been proven totally wrong about everything you have ever claimed about LRLs.

So sad....

 

[aarthrj3811]

~EE THr

LRLs have never been proven to the World to do any of those things, or to locate "treasure," at any distance.

Yes you keep giving us your opinion...Art

 

[woof!]

"Test: Can LRL Promoters Offer Verifiable Information -- Without Insults?"

It's verifiable that they say the things they do-- on this very forum! The things they say prove that they know they ain't got squat. That's the "verifiable information" they offer.

Now here's the funny part. They keep complaining that the problem with LRL's is that "skeptics" ain't going along with their salespitch. Sometimes even to the extreme of saying that LRL's don't work because Carl makes 'em not work. I don't have to make this stuff up-- it's the LRL promoters themselves who post it!

Now, just a reminder to the promoters who pitch their wares here: "If a person who has read this forum wants to buy an LRL, I hereby deliver them into your hands." Con artists in their own peculiar way do serve the LORD's purpose, and that's my way of helping out. And y'all ain't even grateful.

--Toto

 

[aarthrj3811]

~woof~

It's verifiable that they say the things they do-- on this very forum! The things they say prove that they know they ain't got squat. That's the "verifiable information" they offer.

Thank You woof for your proof.

Now here's the funny part. They keep complaining that the problem with LRL's is that "skeptics" ain't going along with their salespitch.

Yes we have heard the sales pitch from the 70 plus owner/operators who have given their testimonials

Sometimes even to the extreme of saying that LRL's don't work because Carl makes 'em not work. I don't have to make this stuff up-- it's the LRL promoters themselves who post it!

Yes I have committed about some of the units that Carl has test because I located and recovered gold with seven of them..

, just a remind Nower to the promoters who pitch their wares here:

Would it not be good if someone knew who you think is doing this?
"

If a person who has read this forum wants to buy an LRL, I hereby deliver them into your hands." Con artists in their own peculiar way do serve the LORD's purpose, and that's my way of helping out. And y'all ain't even grateful

.
I have no problem with someone buying a LRL if they have become an informed consumers..Art

 

[signal_line]

You skeptics need to check your meds dosage. Maybe too much, maybe not enough, I don't know. I don't see anyone here trying to sell any LRL's. All I see is some paranoid metal detector designers worried they aren't going to increase sales more than 50% this year, or is it 100% increase. You guys already made millions$$,$$$,$$$. How greedy are you?Don't you know worrying about money only makes you miserable. And you must have a bunch of it. I really suggest you read the book "Handbook To Higher Consciousness" by Ken Keyes Jr. You really need to get out of the lowlife existence you are in--security, sensation, and power. These are addictions and you got 'em bad.

 

[woof!]

Signal, Hung didn't want to talk about LRL's or the people who sell them. You don't wanna talk about 'em either? You guys sure you're on the right forum?

--Toto

 

[Carl-NC]

Sometimes even to the extreme of saying that LRL's don't work because Carl makes 'em not work.

I'm told I naturally emit powerful SkepticWaves. Jams any pseudoscience within 500 feet. Bestowed upon me by Darth Randi.

All I see is some paranoid metal detector designers worried they aren't going to increase sales more than 50% this year, or is it 100% increase.

Mike, I wanna add an LRL to our product line-up. Now I gotta figure out, should I go with a calculator taped to a dowsing rod, or an AM radio taped to a dowsing rod? Seriously, no kidding, which is better?

 

[woof!]

With their imaginative pseudoscience, the LRL purveyors can locate X at distance Y (X and Y being anything you want them to be). But can't develop a Skeptic Wave Shield weighing a mere 20 grams ($1,000, worth its weight in gold!) to ducktape to the non-dowsing rod dowsing rod. That's outright incompetency! Heck, my kid could have developed a product like that at the age of three, and for another $500 she'd have thrown in Barbie doll and you could pretend that Barbie was doing the dowsing.

And for your convenience, another $100 gets you the ducktape, and not just any old ducktape, it's magic ducktape.

--Toto

 

[aarthrj3811]

~woof~

You guys sure you're on the right forum?

Yes woof...that is a good question....Art