The Merchant Royal was in port in Cadiz when it learned of a Spanish ship that was overburdened with this treasure.

KaiCor

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Feb 8, 2024
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Here's an example of what I'm talking about : 400 feet of long line is a nice piece, now imagine 15 miles of line stretched tight over the bottom with 1500 hooks !! We fish right through the heart of pennikamp state park, and biscayne national park !! These park designations mean nothing to us as we hold the necessary federal permits to fish these waters park or no park !! Thats right surprise surprise!! We are allowed to longline in the parks believe it or not !! I might lay that longline out twice in 24 hours.....day after day after day for years and years !! Im also a treasurehunter, beachcomber, etc.etc.etc we catch stuff....not just fish !! Ill take a picture if we try to sell anchors next week at the nautical flea market....we will have a hundred modern anchors for sale this season from fishing !! Now as a fisherman with the latest equipment, I can almost see in my minds eye the exact lay out of some of these wrecks, and after years of snagging stuff, .....yes I swerve over the good wrecks, and slow down, and pile on lead and hooks !! Because I might get another "bite" from a tea cup 🍵 or maybe a clump of fused coins, or some other artifact. Now imagine 25 good wrecks that you've found, and then snagging some things each time you set on them !! Nibble, nibble, nibble.....like a rat does cheese 🧀

Now it's the off season, and it's warm, and it's clear, and now your diving speciman shells(another form of treasure for me) and you decide to check some numbers where these "catches" have come from !! Just saying!! The fisherman, little mouse, can often just quietly nibble away at the cheese 🧀.....growing fat and comfortable with very little attention. Its often the case when hunting real mice, that you split open a wall to exterminate this vermin, pirate, mouse, and holy sh!t....this little sucker has a huge stash of cheese in his comfortable little hidey hole !!

You can never underestimate the craftiness of the poor little mouse/fisherman.....in fact....he might be nibbling on great big blocks of cheese that no one even knows about??

How many gold ones does it take, and how much money 💰 does a little mouse family need ? Here's a scenario.....man finds cache of gold coins.....hundreds we'll say. How many does it really take to make a good haul.....well it really dosent take to many with the right numismatic value to realize a big win !! 3 or 4 of the right mint marks, and other rarities and a person could theoretically retire on easy street, and still have the bulk of the cache still intact for future withdraws.

There are many different approaches to this game we play....let's face it...its a game !! Sometimes ya win some, and sometimes you lose....learn to play it good and you might master several techniques of the game, both at land and sea. In today's day and age it's adaptability, and hunting different treasures as they present themselves because here today, and gone tomorrow is how it works now. Wait to long, and mother nature, or mankind will hide it for another thousand years. So continue on gentleman this little mouse will sit and listen (and maybe learn) to the big dogs, and tales of big treasures.....but pardon me if I run off to investigate....I mean go fishing....there's a little crumb of cheese ill have to try and nibble this month....ya see this mouse is still hungry like the crow is !!☠️🫡☠️🫡
You are right, a little mouse can be very cunning and hoarding ;) Good hunting/fishing!
 

KaiCor

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Feb 8, 2024
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Yes....some claim that the octopus 🐙 is not from this world, and is actually alien to this planet ? They are highly intelligent and work in very mysterious ways. This is proof in point of my earlier post.....fisherman have learned to pay attention to them and there habits.

The first experience with octopus and treasure was a real eye opener!! I had been hired to slowly replace an older crew mate....he was a remarkable man, and was still working on the deck of a commercial lobster boat in his 70s.

One day on deck he starts screaming "TREASURE" !! I look over, and I see the tell tale sign of an octopus using a lobster trap as a home.....like I said these animals work on another level of intelligence, and this would be like me moving into the grocery store !! These creatures will live in the trap, and greet each lobster that comes in the trap, and eat them. They procede to make the trap home by decorating the inside of the trap with select items from the bottom. The traps will some times be filled with many pounds of rocks/EOs. These octopus work on the same principle as a detector, and are fully capable of finding encrusted metal objects.....which they prefer over normal coral rocks !!

This is something that can only be figured out by a guy who has seen this type of thing over and over in his 50 years at sea. I don't know how long it took the old man to figure out that the rocks in the trap were all EOs, but somehow he figured out to stop the boat and drift, as we smacked open the rocks in the trap to expose spikes, silverware, Pottery, and yup....even a coin or 2. And guess what....we got clay pipes also !!

I also love to eat these octopus, and they are a real treat !! But we had a couple treasure salving octopus, that we let go and caught many times....I have the numbers on this English wreck, and it's just a bit deep for scuba, so it remains a curiosity at the moment.....we do specifically put special traps down here called condos.....they are bigger, and the octopus prefer them as homes.

It was always a treat to take a break and drift for 15 minutes cracking EOs and searching for more silverware 🍽 !!

I have not fished on this boat in 5 years, but they still send me pics of silverware when they get it....and yes we do have an idea of age, and have looked up the hallmarks.....my last find was a small pickle fork !! Never underestimate the fisherman....we quickly made custom gear to accommodate our special octopus friends ..... we had the hopes of making them comfortable and giving them the best chance at loading our traps with treasure. If I were on the boat that drug up the anchor associated with the Merchant royal....I would modify my gear to drag the spot for treasure.....a separate drag customized to skim the first foot or 2 of bottom sediment....reinforced main line and brails, would alow me to tear large chunks of heavy material without damaging the terminal tackle !! And by now, I would have made 400 passes over that bottom in a giant grid.....remember that these fishing boats will have all the fantastic sensors that a treasure boat has, and sometimes even better systems than some salvage vessels have.....no problem to chart plot and mow the bottom clean if necessary !!
It's amazing how such lowly evolved creatures use their instincts to create traps. Octopuses are endowed with some very interesting instincts. It's a bit like how birds build a nest. But birds don't trap something like lobsters in them.
 

Magoopeter

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The Merchant Royall, I have traced the source of this story, and I don’t believe the ship was 10 Leagues or 30 miles of lands end, Odessey Marines search area was based on the wrong information, I have the information they based their survey on. But who would have the capital to mount an operation on the scale that Gregory Stemm put together, probably a one-off event / achievement in our lifetime.
 

Stratus37

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Mar 1, 2024
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The Merchant Royall, I have traced the source of this story, and I don’t believe the ship was 10 Leagues or 30 miles of lands end, Odessey Marines search area was based on the wrong information, I have the information they based their survey on. But who would have the capital to mount an operation on the scale that Gregory Stemm put together, probably a one-off event / achievement in our lifetime.
how close to land do you reckon she was? And where did odessey search?
Thanks Colin
 

Magoopeter

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Well can’t share that. Odessey info cost money, but that can still be bought, some guys on the site should have that, but knowing that does not help or even the distance from shore, you need to Know what “The Lands End” means in the context of that time, to really understand the full story, remember there are four Lands Ends that are past from Cadiz to the Thames. The area it should have sunk also has an Anchor listed as a snagged some years ago.
 

Stratus37

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Mar 1, 2024
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Well can’t share that. Odessey info cost money, but that can still be bought, some guys on the site should have that, but knowing that does not help or even the distance from shore, you need to Know what “The Lands End” means in the context of that time, to really understand the full story, remember there are four Lands Ends that are past from Cadiz to the Thames. The area it should have sunk also has an Anchor listed as a snagged some years ago.
Thanks for this. Is that the anchor that was brought up in 2019? That someone thought may have been from merchant royal and others thought it may have been Dutch?
Thanks
 

Magoopeter

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Thanks for this. Is that the anchor that was brought up in 2019? That someone thought may have been from merchant royal and others thought it may have been Dutch?
Thanks
The Anchor was said to be French and latter than the MR, I believe it is in a flooded quarry in Cornwall. The Dutch Ship is further into the channel and not as deep, 1633, date on trawled up cannon, The MR could also be a Dutch built vessel, as they were larger than the English ships and cheaper to build and buy. Have you read the full version of the MR story or just the News Pamphlet.
 

Stratus37

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Mar 1, 2024
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The Anchor was said to be French and latter than the MR, I believe it is in a flooded quarry in Cornwall. The Dutch Ship is further into the channel and not as deep, 1633, date on trawled up cannon, The MR could also be a Dutch built vessel, as they were larger than the English ships and cheaper to build and buy. Have you read the full version of the MR story or just the News Pamphlet.
Appreciate this.
Would you have a link to the full story?
I read the news pamphlet.
I wonder how accurate the 10 leagues location is? If the Anchor dragged up is from the MR then the wreck maybe closer to shore.

Any help is greatly appreciated
 

Blak bart

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Screenshot_20240319_065452_Samsung Internet.jpg
Screenshot_20240319_065534_Samsung Internet.jpg
 

Blak bart

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Did anyone notice a reference to this ships narrative stating that it was entering the "Rhodes" when it sunk ?? If that statement is true does it not mean this ship was about to anchor.....as in entering the anchoring Rhodes?? If that's a true statement then I'd have to think that's close to land and shallower water....also one should be able to easily find the known anchorages of the time. Now perhaps I've read that narrative wrong, and I've misinterpreted what it meant ? I'm pretty sure I read that here.....now I'll have to reread every post for 1 sentence, but that seems like a very important clue if I read that right ??
 

Magoopeter

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Mounts bay would have been the closest anchorage or Silly Isles, IT is interesting as I think they had a dock or slip way to repair ship in Mounts bay maybe at Newlyn, there are records of treasure ships being lots in Mounts Bay. a lot of this article is incorrect.
 

Magoopeter

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Thomas Wiseman to Sir John Pennington.

“Yours of the 27th inst. I suppose you have understood of the loss of the Royal Merchant coming into our road, which is the greatest that was ever sustained in one ship, being worth 400,000l. at least. The merchants of Antwerp will be the greatest losers, for she had in her belonging to them 300,000l. in bullion; if so be the Infante Cardinal lose not upon its Flanders, for want of money to pay the soldiers”.

The letter was sent to Penning how was a distinguished Naval officer who severed as vice-admiral under Sir Walter Raleigh in in 1617. Around the date of the Merchant Royall’s sinking Pennington was in command of the English Channel fleet. It is reported that with much of his time being spent at sea he wished to be kept informed of the news of events in London. Wealthy and important people at the time were surprisingly well informed about events, news travelled through the many news pamphlets into correspondence. However, Thomas Wiseman letter to Sir John Pennington was not a social letter, the fuller version contains reference to parliamentary matters and as it was recorded in Calendar of State Papers, Domestic Series, of the Reign of Charles I. You are correct, "coming into our road" that would mean the Thames more likley the Downs, London was the Merchant Royalls destionation, however I think in this case it just means final destionation and not actually coming into, only 30 percent of the english population could read and write and then words had differnt meaning.
 

Blak bart

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Thomas Wiseman to Sir John Pennington.

“Yours of the 27th inst. I suppose you have understood of the loss of the Royal Merchant coming into our road, which is the greatest that was ever sustained in one ship, being worth 400,000l. at least. The merchants of Antwerp will be the greatest losers, for she had in her belonging to them 300,000l. in bullion; if so be the Infante Cardinal lose not upon its Flanders, for want of money to pay the soldiers”.

The letter was sent to Penning how was a distinguished Naval officer who severed as vice-admiral under Sir Walter Raleigh in in 1617. Around the date of the Merchant Royall’s sinking Pennington was in command of the English Channel fleet. It is reported that with much of his time being spent at sea he wished to be kept informed of the news of events in London. Wealthy and important people at the time were surprisingly well informed about events, news travelled through the many news pamphlets into correspondence. However, Thomas Wiseman letter to Sir John Pennington was not a social letter, the fuller version contains reference to parliamentary matters and as it was recorded in Calendar of State Papers, Domestic Series, of the Reign of Charles I. You are correct, "coming into our road" that would mean the Thames more likley the Downs, London was the Merchant Royalls destionation, however I think in this case it just means final destionation and not actually coming into, only 30 percent of the english population could read and write and then words had differnt meaning.
Yes...I see your point magoo....thought it was worth mentioning.....the English language I've herd is the most complicated, so one must be sure of these things !!
 

Magoopeter

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I am not sure the real Merchant Royall was a treasure ship at all, well around three million £ in today’s money, it is probably a well-known wreck that lies in the English Channel. It may be the case that it was exactly what you point to a confusion in the langue or more like Chinese whispers. Writers not knowing the ships name or captain, but hearing of the loss and circumstances, placed another captain and ships names in their story, there aim was not to report historical fact rather to produce a story to catch to eye and sell there news Pamphlet, to scrap a living.
 

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Magoopeter

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I have a lot of time spent on the Merchant Royall, something I found was the below extract from a letter, in term of the historical context it is more accurate than the five-page document in the British Library, and there are two records of a ship with the name swan being lost in the 1630, s in the English channel. Again, the English Langue a Merchant Royal or Royall Merchant, in the early i6th century meant wealthy in terms of man or ship.
 

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Crow

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Some interesting points. Not out of the question? The late Tony Allen below did some research on the merchant Royal. He claimed the vessel was mentioned in Samuel Pepys in diary and proceedings in the house of Commons. Tony goes on to say the 700 ton Merchant Royal was built in Deptford, in 1627 . I am not sure his source of where he obtained that bit of information. if that was the case they Perhaps there was two rich vessels with similar fate? One in 1630 and another in 1641.

tony.jpg



Crow
 

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: Michael-Robert.

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Some interesting points. Not out of the question? The late Tony Allen below did some research on the merchant Royal. He claimed the vessel was mentioned in Samuel Pepys in diary and proceedings in the house of Commons. Tony goes on to say the 700 ton Merchant Royal was built in Deptford, in 1627 . I am not sure his source of where he obtained that bit of information. if that was the case they Perhaps there was two rich vessels with similar fate? One in 1630 and another in 1641.

View attachment 2138815


Crow
Now that is very interesting... Did it mention the possible names of them?
 

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