THE PERALTAS IN ARIZONA

[cactusjumper]

Did the Peralta name, in the LDM Legend, come from Jacob Waltz?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much of the Jacob Waltz Legend is, no doubt, less than truthful. What seems likely, is that he knew Miguel Peralta. In fact, it would be very difficult for the two of them not to have met.

It could be that the story, basically as we know it, developed from that possible connection. Why the story, if it was not true?

It may be that Waltz found an existing (rich) mine, just as he claimed, but did not know who the owners were. It was obvious they were no longer working the mine, perhaps driven off by Apaches so, fearing the return of the real owners, he took what he could, buried some nearby and ran with what he could carry.

In making up the story he told Julia and Rhiney, he simply used a name that was familiar to him. Having heard the family history from Antonio and his son Miguel, it came easily into his tale.

The rest of the legend grew from this original justification for Waltz working someone else's claim. According to his story, the owner (Miguel Peralta) gave him permission.

Considering the "fact" that the mine could be worked by hand, that might explain why Waltz said they could not work the mine. Still fearful they would be caught, he would only have them retrieve what he had buried.

Fact is, that Jacob Waltz and Miguel Peralta were both miners in La Paz and Prescott/Bradshaw Mountains in the same years.

Joe Ribaudo

 

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[El Gato]

CJ

One thing to be considered is that the Sir name Peralta is the Spanish equivalent to Smith or Jones in English. The same thing goes for the first names of Miguel and Pedro. (Sam or Bill)

I can not think of any logical reason for Waltz to have lied to Julia and Rhiney, so I accept the story that Sims Ely presented about how they said Waltz learned about the location of the mine.

On the other hand I can think of several reasons that Waltz might have lied to Dick Holmes. (assuming any conversation ever took place between the two of them) I can also think of several reasons for Holmes to invent a long drawn out story to convince everyone that Waltz had given him directions to the mine and the 48 pounds of gold ore in the candle box under his deathbed.

The entire Holmes version of the legend is so fragmented and inconsistent that it lacks that "ring of truth" we all look for when evaluating someones story.

If Ely's version of the story is true, then Waltz WAS the source for the name Peralta in the legend.

EG

 

[cactusjumper]

EG,

"If Ely's version of the story is true, then Waltz WAS the source for the name Peralta in the legend."

I believe that's the same conclusion I presented in my post. What I am saying, is that Waltz may have embellished his story for his own reasons. Prospectors and Treasure Hunters have been suspected of doing that very thing......now and again.

Joe Ribaudo

 

[El Gato]

EG,

"If Ely's version of the story is true, then Waltz WAS the source for the name Peralta in the legend."

I believe that's the same conclusion I presented in my post. What I am saying, is that Waltz may have embellished his story for his own reasons. Prospectors and Treasure Hunters have been suspected of doing that very thing......now and again.

Joe Ribaudo

CJ

I don't think Waltz would fit into the category of either a Prospector or a Treasure Hunter during the period we are discussing. He had already made his find and was not looking for investors or partners.

Besides, if he were going to embellish anything in his story, would it not have been along the lines of the richness of the ore, or the ease of mining it? Not how he came to find it.

Just thinking out loud.

EG

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Transcripts from the James Addison Reavis trial, where Julio and Miguel Peralta testified. The Peralta's were asked about and confirmed their mining in Arizona. This from the Cross-Examination of Miguel Lauro Peralta y Vasquez: Q. 54 In what year did your father first go to Arizona? A. About 1862. Q. 55 And was he engaged in mining during all the time he lived in Arizona? A. Yes, sir. Q. 56 In what particular part of the territory were his mines? A. In the Camp of La Paz, and in the district of Montezuma, in Yavapai County, Arizona. Q. 57 Did he own the mines himself? A. Yes, sir; not one alone, but many. I have got the deeds to show it. Q. 58 Did your father purchase the mines? A. No, sir; he discovered them.
There are other mention of the mines. Arizona Miner September 21 1864
A new mining district.
From James A. Moore Esq., returned on Monday from the lower Turkey Creek and black Canyon County. 60 miles southeast from Prescott, we have the following interesting particulars; at the new placers some 60 Mexicans and 25 Americans are working with rockers there is no running water but sufficient is found by digging a few feet in the bed of the Creek. The gold is one of the kind known as River gold and is of superior quality. The largest piece Mr. Moore saw as value at five dollars. The Americans are making from $5-$8 each per day, and have at times made as high as $12 shafts have been sunk into the Creek to the depth of 15 to 18 feet but without striking the bedrock. A deeper depth is not ventured at present, owing to the flow of water and the lack of pumps . Good sluicing prospects are found from the surface down.
The discovery of promising gold ledges continues. The nopal and Mexican loads are within 2 miles of the Creek they are now worked by arrastras. There is one shaft on the nopal and 5 upon the Mexican. "The load averages in width it has been traced a mile and a half or more." The Mexican load is about the same size 900 pounds the croppings of this ledge crushed in the new arrastras. "Don Peralta superintended of the mine."

 

[SANTA FE NEW MEXICAN]

Joe this thread is fantastic please Continue.

 

[Twisted Fork]

Did the Peralta name, in the LDM Legend, come from Jacob Waltz?

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Much of the Jacob Waltz Legend is, no doubt, less than truthful. What seems likely, is that he knew Miguel Peralta. In fact, it would be very difficult for the two of them not to have met.

It could be that the story, basically as we know it, developed from that possible connection. Why the story, if it was not true?

It may be that Waltz found an existing (rich) mine, just as he claimed, but did not know who the owners were. It was obvious they were no longer working the mine, perhaps driven off by Apaches so, fearing the return of the real owners, he took what he could, buried some nearby and ran with what he could carry.

In making up the story he told Julia and Rhiney, he simply used a name that was familiar to him. Having heard the family history from Antonio and his son Miguel, it came easily into his tale.

The rest of the legend grew from this original justification for Waltz working someone else's claim. According to his story, the owner (Miguel Peralta) gave him permission.

Considering the "fact" that the mine could be worked by hand, that might explain why Waltz said they could not work the mine. Still fearful they would be caught, he would only have them retrieve what he had buried.

Fact is, that Jacob Waltz and Miguel Peralta were both miners in La Paz and Prescott/Bradshaw Mountains in the same years.

Joe Ribaudo

I seriously wonder whether the Dutchman and Miguel were more than knowing of each other. According to Waltz's own statement; "We killed the two boys" and after burying them, went straight to work in the mine." At some point, Wiser is near his pony, loaded and ready when all of a sudden he drops from one well placed Apache arrow. Waltz mounts his horse and runs for the cover of darkness until he is able to return and bury his good friend. Creepy.........

 

[Ashton Page]

Joe brings up an excellent point and answers a question that I’ve had for some time.

I always wondered why Waltz and Weiser (if there was a Weiser) “worked as hard as we could, every day for many weeks” (Sims Ely pg 104).

WHY would two old-timers work that hard IF they had legitimate claim to the mine?
They wouldn’t.

If Joe is right, (and it sure fits with the facts) then this answers a couple other questions as well:

Waltz was a professional miner (see census reports of the time) Waltz had filed other mining claims in Arizona. WHY didn’t Waltz ever file a claim on the LDM?

If Waltz had access to that much gold, why was he living so frugally? I can understand living modestly, but Waltz was living next to poverty.

Interesting perspective. It makes sense to me.

Ashton

 

[cactusjumper]

Ashton,

"WHY would two old-timers work that hard IF they had legitimate claim to the mine? They wouldn’t."

When working in tornado alley, one does not dally/linger when there are storms all around you. Get in, get your work done, and haul burro. What is said to have happened to Weiser, is a prime example of why you might not want to lay around camp all day. Their tornado's were called.......APACHE!

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Twisted Fork]

Your mention of a tornado alley brings back a real point in the weather itself; Lighting. The location of the most sacred and richest mine know to the Apache, was told in legend as a place where the Thunder Heads passed through and blasted the area with heavy bolts of lightening. This area on the Salt that I have referred to in some way or another, happens to be one of the last places on earth where one wants to be standing, when a Thunder Head suddenly becomes visible on the horizon.

I was with a relative early on in the search back in the 80's and one day late in the afternoon, I noticed this massive stacked round cloud approaching us from the N.W.. It was so awesome and so beautiful as it was the first I had every seen in real life. There were crooked lightening bolts shooting out and downward, over and over at different angles from out of it's seemingly flat base; it looked supernatural and filled with unbelievable power.

After gazing at it for a few speechless moments, I turned to my bro and said "look at that, isn't it beautiful. At the moment, he was mucking out a shovel full of samples from the location we were in and as he turned to look, his eyes bugged out and suddenly his face went pale. "Get the gear, throw it in the truck and get in Now! I was somewhat confused by his reaction and again he said "Get in the truck Now!

30 seconds later, we were beating the hell out of his truck full speed over one of the many so called home made trails into nowhere. He said we had ten minutes to get clear of the canyon and several tributaries or else we were going to be stranded and probably going to die due to the lightning. Evidently, he and his father had been down in the area at a previous time and were caught right in the middle of the nightmare. I still remember the serious, fearful look on his face as he gazed back and forth from the rocks on the road, and the approaching cloud as he could see it in his rear view mirror. Looking back myself, I can still see the massive bolts of lightening pounding the mountain around the surrounding area we had just left behind.

"Gold of the Thunder Gods" Ya buddy.........

 

[Ashton Page]

Ashton,

"WHY would two old-timers work that hard IF they had legitimate claim to the mine? They wouldn’t."

When working in tornado alley, one does not dally/linger when there are storms all around you. Get in, get your work done, and haul burro. What is said to have happened to Weiser, is a prime example of why you might not want to lay around camp all day. Their tornado's were called.......APACHE!

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Fair enough and point taken.

BUT the LDM ore is (supposedly) so fantastically rich that every couple of feet (3 to be exact) would be worth a $ 1 million. That figure was derived from a study done on the matchbox ore and assumed the vein was 18” wide, as described by Waltz in the death bed confession. I can look up the link if you need it.

If they were toooooo worried about Apache, Waltz would not have left Weiser behind to continue the mining on his own. Seems like getting the gold out of the ground was more important than the threat of Apache at that point.

My point is; there was something else driving them to work like such fiends to get the gold out. They may have been claim-jumping after all.

Best,

Ashton

 

[cactusjumper]

Ashton,

[Fair enough and point taken.

BUT the LDM ore is (supposedly) so fantastically rich that every couple of feet (3 to be exact) would be worth a $ 1 million. That figure was derived from a study done on the matchbox ore and assumed the vein was 18” wide, as described by Waltz in the death bed confession. I can look up the link if you need it.

If they were toooooo worried about Apache, Waltz would not have left Weiser behind to continue the mining on his own. Seems like getting the gold out of the ground was more important than the threat of Apache at that point.

My point is; there was something else driving them to work like such fiends to get the gold out. They may have been claim-jumping after all.]

Jewelry ore is the pick of the litter, so to speak. In those days gold was worth much less than it is today, so that million dollars for three feet would be a tad less. My guess is that the richness of the ore was slightly exaggerated.

The mine was obviously being worked by someone else. That person or persons could come back at any time and demand all of the gold they had mined, or even start shooting and ask questions later. That's just another possible tornado.

Since I don't believe the "death bed confession" ever happened, it follows that I don't believe any of the statements of Brownie Holmes concerning the "facts" of the story. Truthfully, I have my doubts that Brownie ever wrote the "Brownie Holmes Manuscript". If he did, as my friend Thomas believes, my guess is that most of it was a work of fiction. It was so outlandish, that he didn't want to admit he had written it. Too many old timers would recognize it for what it was.

Just some rambling opinions.

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Blindbowman]

Ashton,

"WHY would two old-timers work that hard IF they had legitimate claim to the mine? They wouldn’t."

When working in tornado alley, one does not dally/linger when there are storms all around you. Get in, get your work done, and haul burro. What is said to have happened to Weiser, is a prime example of why you might not want to lay around camp all day. Their tornado's were called.......APACHE!

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Fair enough and point taken.

BUT the LDM ore is (supposedly) so fantastically rich that every couple of feet (3 to be exact) would be worth a $ 1 million. That figure was derived from a study done on the matchbox ore and assumed the vein was 18” wide, as described by Waltz in the death bed confession. I can look up the link if you need it.

If they were toooooo worried about Apache, Waltz would not have left Weiser behind to continue the mining on his own. Seems like getting the gold out of the ground was more important than the threat of Apache at that point.

My point is; there was something else driving them to work like such fiends to get the gold out. They may have been claim-jumping after all.

Best,



Ashton

are you saying 18 inches wide or 18" inches thick . waltz stated about 2 ft thick,, but its more like 27 inches thick and 15-17 wide , i think i have seen a few hunderd quartz vanes to ake a fair judgement of this vane...3 ft .. i have to agree with CJ .. 3 ft is not that much ore .. now if we are talking 1 unit about 3 cubic ft at 70 lbs of gold pre unit it comes out to about ......$ 1,120,000.

do i beleive its that rich of a vane NO ....


i know it is !

 

[Cubfan64]

Ashton,

"WHY would two old-timers work that hard IF they had legitimate claim to the mine? They wouldn’t."

When working in tornado alley, one does not dally/linger when there are storms all around you. Get in, get your work done, and haul burro. What is said to have happened to Weiser, is a prime example of why you might not want to lay around camp all day. Their tornado's were called.......APACHE!

Take care,

Joe Ribaudo

Fair enough and point taken.

BUT the LDM ore is (supposedly) so fantastically rich that every couple of feet (3 to be exact) would be worth a $ 1 million. That figure was derived from a study done on the matchbox ore and assumed the vein was 18” wide, as described by Waltz in the death bed confession. I can look up the link if you need it.

If they were toooooo worried about Apache, Waltz would not have left Weiser behind to continue the mining on his own. Seems like getting the gold out of the ground was more important than the threat of Apache at that point.

My point is; there was something else driving them to work like such fiends to get the gold out. They may have been claim-jumping after all.

Best,

Ashton

Ashton - Joe already stole my thunder on this, but it bears repeating...

It's almost assured that any ore samples ever assayed from the LDM were hand cobbed, very best of the very best. In my humble opinion, there is simply no way to estimate anything regarding the value of the LDM.

 

[Oroblanco]

Tag post please ignore

 

[Twisted Fork]

Waltz left Wiser behind because he was already deader than a doornail. The Apache had already left for the dinner bell and it wasn't until then that he returned. This mine was called the heart because it was deemed the mother-lode of them all. Stands to reason that the legend survives.

Stories remain out of Utah about a kindly old gentlemen who brought down gold for Brigam Young and in his remaining words, "The vein runs endlessly out and down into the earth wherein it averages about 6 feet in width and stands the entire height of the 6 foot high passage. It can be traced on the surface for miles. It is a constant string of two wires the diameter of the spring in his pocket knife, and explodes into one mass after the other of nearly pure sponge gold.

Rhoads went to Washington in an effort to get congress to move the reservation boundaries some distance and if they would do so and let him file on it, he would pay off the national debt. They waited until after Rhoads had passed away and then could not find the dig then same as today. Gold is where you find it, and whether or not anyone believes it is immaterial and I wouldn't be so quick to accept some warped story that has been passed around so many times, that the elephants are no longer pink either. These Dons hid this stuff in a way that was meant to keep ya all out of their goods Ok? They were a smart bunch of cookies.

 

[cactusjumper]

Mr. Fork,

"Gold is where you find it, and whether or not anyone believes it is immaterial and I wouldn't be so quick to accept some warped story that has been passed around so many times, that the elephants are no longer pink either."

Without documentation, isn't the story you just told......Just another "warped story...." to add to the list? I assume you heard the story from someone else, so that makes it "passed around". Your story about George Mason Adams is not being "passed around" by his ancestors.......except for you.

Not saying you are telling tall tales, but we do get our fair share around here. Can you tell us the names of some of your family? Father, mother or siblings? Your history for George Adams was a little....off.

Thanks in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Twisted Fork]

Well by now, every one who has spent any time studying the subject should have a pretty good idea that everything out there is a little off per say. Such is the nature of legends. On the other hand, you don't see me trying to sell some rag at the book store either and I have had offers to do just that as well as film. Such is the nature of those who were dealt out as partners or affiliates back in the beginning. Everyone knows that a good story is worth it's weight in salt, whether it is real or not, second hand or hearsay. Tell me, what is it about some long dead pencil pusher that attracts you the most? What I gave you came from the horse's mouth. From the man who was living back when the witness himself bunked with him on the ranch in Show Low. It doesn't get any better than that my friend. You've spent your hard earned bucks and delivered wear and tear on all that you are, based on hearsay at best. Whats it going to take to get you out kicking rocks again? A front page story about it being found and the area sealed off so that you and yours will never experience it otherwise? The tablets are real; that's all you need out there.

 

[Oroblanco]

Twisted Fork wrote

Whats it going to take to get you out kicking rocks again?

While I can't speak for everyone, not all of us are "armchair adventurers" amigo; we may not get out as much as we would LIKE to, but we still keep our hand in at every opportunity. For those of us whom are no longer 'kicking rocks', a big part has to do with physical limitations; this should not prevent an active, if indeed "armchair" participation. In fact, I think those 'armchair' experts, with many years of boots-on-the-ground experience, have a great deal to contribute. So I have to respectfully disagree on this issue.

As for the stone tablets being real, then someone ought to have found any treasure(s) they were intended to lead to by now, considering how many people have tried using them.
Oroblanco

 

[cactusjumper]

Well by now, every one who has spent any time studying the subject should have a pretty good idea that everything out there is a little off per say. Such is the nature of legends. On the other hand, you don't see me trying to sell some rag at the book store either and I have had offers to do just that as well as film. Such is the nature of those who were dealt out as partners or affiliates back in the beginning. Everyone knows that a good story is worth it's weight in salt, whether it is real or not, second hand or hearsay. Tell me, what is it about some long dead pencil pusher that attracts you the most? What I gave you came from the horse's mouth. From the man who was living back when the witness himself bunked with him on the ranch in Show Low. It doesn't get any better than that my friend. You've spent your hard earned bucks and delivered wear and tear on all that you are, based on hearsay at best. Whats it going to take to get you out kicking rocks again? A front page story about it being found and the area sealed off so that you and yours will never experience it otherwise? The tablets are real; that's all you need out there.

Mr. Fork,

What you are telling us is just more hearsay. So far, you have not given us a reason to trust what you are saying. What it looks like, is that we are getting is something that you say is "from the horse's mouth", when it looks suspiciously like something that is coming from the horses's A$$.

Give us some names or throw in your cards.

Joe Ribaudo