The Pit Mine, the LDM, Kochera and the Nugget of Truth video.

[Matthew Roberts]

In the recent video, Nugget of Truth, Ron Feldman states that John Kochera and the gold ore he found is absolute proof the Lost Dutchman Mine exists, where it exists and that the LDM is the Pit Mine in the eastern Superstitions.

Feldman further states John Kochera’s ore is a match to known Dutchman ore and was proven a match by TE Glover’s testing of that ore in 1998.

The theory that the Pit Mine is the Lost Dutchman Mine is based on the premise that the gold John and Joe Kochera found on Peters Mesa in 1962 actually came from the Pit Mine. And that the Pit Mine, also known earlier as the Silver Chief Mine, was indeed the mine of Jacob Waltz the Dutchman.

Ron Feldman holds up the 1998 TE Glover ore analysis results as the proof that Kochera got his ore from the Pit Mine and Pit Mine ore matches Dutchman ore.

But TE Glover’s own determination of the ore testing in his 2000 book, The Golden Dream, is at odds with this premise.

In 1998 TE Glover tested 6 separate samples of gold ore to determine if any of them matched the known sample of Dutchman ore. Testing was done at the Mackey School of Mines in Reno Nevada using SEM and EDS technology.

Known Dutchman ore is present today in the form of a Matchbox as well as a few gold samples that survived which were found under Waltz’s bed at his death.


Six gold samples were tested against the known Dutchman gold ore.

Vulture Mine Ore

Black Queen Mine Ore

Mammoth Mine Ore

Bulldog Mine Ore

Kochera Ore

Camp Ore


TE Glover’s results showed the Vulture Mine Ore was from a completely different type of ore with almost no similarity whatsoever to the Dutchman Ore.

The Black Queen, Mammoth and Bulldog Ores were all three similar to themselves but not similar to Dutchman Ore and not of the same elements and composition as Dutchman Ore.

The Kochera Ore had similar elements as the Dutchman Ore but also had its own unique element composition which was not present in the Dutchman Ore. TE Glover determined Kochera Ore was a close match but too far apart to have come from the same mine.


Of all the ores tested the Camp Ore was the closest match to Dutchman Ore in composition, elements, type of quartz and matrix. It was further determined during the test that Dutchman Ore and the Camp Ore sample both came from the same geologic event.


The TE Glover explanation of his ore testing and an overview of the results are found in his book published in 2000, The Golden Dream.

Matthew

 

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[ConceptualizedNetherlandr]

Link to the vid?

 

[Simon1]

http://www.treasurenet.com/forums/l...67-pit-mine-really-lost-dutchman-mine-92.html

scroll down to post # 1372.

It was posted by somehiker in post 1372 yesterday.

I hope it is ok to re-post this ?

My apologies Wayne if I should have asked first before re-posting this.

 

[deducer]

In the recent video, Nugget of Truth, Ron Feldman states that John Kochera and the gold ore he found is absolute proof the Lost Dutchman Mine exists, where it exists and that the LDM is the Pit Mine in the eastern Superstitions.

Feldman further states John Kochera’s ore is a match to known Dutchman ore and was proven a match by TE Glover’s testing of that ore in 1998.

The theory that the Pit Mine is the Lost Dutchman Mine is based on the premise that the gold John and Joe Kochera found on Peters Mesa in 1962 actually came from the Pit Mine. And that the Pit Mine, also known earlier as the Silver Chief Mine, was indeed the mine of Jacob Waltz the Dutchman.

Ron Feldman holds up the 1998 TE Glover ore analysis results as the proof that Kochera got his ore from the Pit Mine and Pit Mine ore matches Dutchman ore.

But TE Glover’s own determination of the ore testing in his 2000 book, The Golden Dream, is at odds with this premise.

In 1998 TE Glover tested 6 separate samples of gold ore to determine if any of them matched the known sample of Dutchman ore. Testing was done at the Mackey School of Mines in Reno Nevada using SEM and EDS technology.

Known Dutchman ore is present today in the form of a Matchbox as well as a few gold samples that survived which were found under Waltz’s bed at his death.


Six gold samples were tested against the known Dutchman gold ore.

Vulture Mine Ore

Black Queen Mine Ore

Mammoth Mine Ore

Bulldog Mine Ore

Kochera Ore

Camp Ore


TE Glover’s results showed the Vulture Mine Ore was from a completely different type of ore with almost no similarity whatsoever to the Dutchman Ore.

The Black Queen, Mammoth and Bulldog Ores were all three similar to themselves but not similar to Dutchman Ore and not of the same elements and composition as Dutchman Ore.

The Kochera Ore had similar elements as the Dutchman Ore but also had its own unique element composition which was not present in the Dutchman Ore. TE Glover determined Kochera Ore was a close match but too far apart to have come from the same mine.


Of all the ores tested the Camp Ore was the closest match to Dutchman Ore in composition, elements, type of quartz and matrix. It was further determined during the test that Dutchman Ore and the Camp Ore sample both came from the same geologic event.


The TE Glover explanation of his ore testing and an overview of the results are found in his book published in 2000, The Golden Dream.

Matthew

Another great post from you, Matthew!

I have that book too, and am aware of the comparisons made. I never bought into the Pit mine = LDM from day one.

 

[azdave35]

Another great post from you, Matthew!

I have that book too, and am aware of the comparisons made. I never bought into the Pit mine = LDM from day one.

i have tried to explain this before but i guess you have to be a miner or an assayer to understand....every one of the larger gold mines have many different veins and ores...just because a certain ore sample doesn't match a sample from a mine ..doesn't mean it didn't come from that mine...the mammoth..bulldog..black queen..golden hillside...all on the same fault line but all have different ore from the other mines on the fault line....and every one of those mines has different ores though out that mine....if you guys want to continue beating your heads against the wall...i guess its your head...but you wont get anywhere...just saying

 

[wrmickel1]

I agree Dave

The ore and composites change quick and often within the same mine.
But what's your thought on it. Not the same mine or it is the Dutchman's

babymick1

 

[Matthew Roberts]

I don't necessarily disagree with what azdave35 has said. Ore testing using SEM and EDS technology just gets someone that much closer to determining which mine ore may have come out of.

My point is Ron Feldman and others have been basing their statements that the Pit Mine is the LDM in a large part on TE Glover's ore analysis of Kochera ore. This has been put forward in books, on Forums, in videos, even the Dutchman Rendezvous.

Everyone is fine with the Glover ore comparison and everyone is silent until someone points out the Glover comparison doesn't actually say or prove Kochera ore is similar to Dutchman ore.

Then all of a sudden ore testing doesn't prove anything.

That doesn't help the Pit Mine and Kochera ore is the LDM theory.

Because if SEM and EDS ore testing is used as a football that one day is good and the next bad, and the goal posts keep getting moved, what exactly is the proof the Pit mine and Kochera ore is the LDM?

Just asking the question.

Matthew

 

[PotBelly Jim]

I don't necessarily disagree with what azdave35 has said. Ore testing using SEM and EDS technology just gets someone that much closer to determining which mine ore may have come out of.

My point is Ron Feldman and others have been basing their statements that the Pit Mine is the LDM in a large part on TE Glover's ore analysis of Kochera ore. This has been put forward in books, on Forums, in videos, even the Dutchman Rendezvous.

Everyone is fine with the Glover ore comparison and everyone is silent until someone points out the Glover comparison doesn't actually say or prove Kochera ore is similar to Dutchman ore.

Then all of a sudden ore testing doesn't prove anything.

That doesn't help the Pit Mine and Kochera ore is the LDM theory.

Because if SEM and EDS ore testing is used as a football that one day is good and the next bad, and the goal posts keep getting moved, what exactly is the proof the Pit mine and Kochera ore is the LDM?

Just asking the question.

Matthew

That's a good point, Matthew...as far as goal posts being moved, I for one would like to see all known samples of "LDM" ore get at least the same test...that includes all the "Jewelry Ore" and the other, lesser known ores...from there, we ought to be able to draw some educated guesses as to whether or not we have an actual mine, or just a collection of pretty ores...currently, this is a debate that's kind of like a circular firing squad...no one can prove or disprove the pit mine is the LDM...there seems to be about 95% saying "no way", about 5% saying "maybe" or "probably"...I used to be in the 95%, but now believe if there really was a LDM or LDC in the Supes, I think the Pit Mine is the best candidate put forth to date...anyway, it is what it is...also thanks for the additional info you posted earlier regarding the number of people who claimed that area in the past...good stuff...Best, Jim

 

[azdave35]

I don't necessarily disagree with what azdave35 has said. Ore testing using SEM and EDS technology just gets someone that much closer to determining which mine ore may have come out of.

My point is Ron Feldman and others have been basing their statements that the Pit Mine is the LDM in a large part on TE Glover's ore analysis of Kochera ore. This has been put forward in books, on Forums, in videos, even the Dutchman Rendezvous.

Everyone is fine with the Glover ore comparison and everyone is silent until someone points out the Glover comparison doesn't actually say or prove Kochera ore is similar to Dutchman ore.

Then all of a sudden ore testing doesn't prove anything.

That doesn't help the Pit Mine and Kochera ore is the LDM theory.

Because if SEM and EDS ore testing is used as a football that one day is good and the next bad, and the goal posts keep getting moved, what exactly is the proof the Pit mine and Kochera ore is the LDM?

Just asking the question.

Matthew

matthew....sometimes technology is highly over rated...take xrf for example...according to the manufacturers they are supposed to be the definitive method for testing ore...i bought one and they are a pretty good tool but does not replace the good old fashion fire assay....i have had ore tested with quite a few other high tech methods and just like xrf..not all its cracked up to be...most of these contraptions are only as good as the person that did the calibration on it..... my opinion...take it for what its worth

 

[azdave35]

I agree Dave

The ore and composites change quick and often within the same mine.
But what's your thought on it. Not the same mine or it is the Dutchman's

babymick1

mick..i think the so called pit mine is the ldm....i dont have anything to back it up with ..just my thoughts...feldmans story just makes alot more sense than all the other claims people have made about finding the ldm....if you spend a few hours with him you would see what i mean...

 

[JohnWhite]

I don't necessarily disagree with what azdave35 has said. Ore testing using SEM and EDS technology just gets someone that much closer to determining which mine ore may have come out of.

My point is Ron Feldman and others have been basing their statements that the Pit Mine is the LDM in a large part on TE Glover's ore analysis of Kochera ore. This has been put forward in books, on Forums, in videos, even the Dutchman Rendezvous.

Everyone is fine with the Glover ore comparison and everyone is silent until someone points out the Glover comparison doesn't actually say or prove Kochera ore is similar to Dutchman ore.

Then all of a sudden ore testing doesn't prove anything.

That doesn't help the Pit Mine and Kochera ore is the LDM theory.

Because if SEM and EDS ore testing is used as a football that one day is good and the next bad, and the goal posts keep getting moved, what exactly is the proof the Pit mine and Kochera ore is the LDM?

Just asking the question.

Matthew

Testing of Ores has come a long way since Jacob Waltz worked his mine...And the modern tests can only prove IF an ore comes from the same geological formation...I have seen ores where gold runs in quartz and in surrounding country rock as well...And IF I were to give anyone a sample of the gold in quartz and gold in country rock, I do not believe anyone would believe both are from the same deposit, IF I would not have stated such...I wonder IF anyone else may have run into such a deposit

And those people at the Mackey School of Mines in Reno are pretty sharp when it comes to mineral deposits...Heck...Maybe one day they may even find the location that my little Tia Juana came from...After all...I did give it to one of their Alums...hehehe

At times I wonder how much of what Jacob Waltz clues are actually truth and how much is fictionWe may never know...

 

[wrmickel1]

mick..i think the so called pit mine is the ldm....i dont have anything to back it up with ..just my thoughts...feldmans story just makes alot more sense than all the other claims people have made about finding the ldm....if you spend a few hours with him you would see what i mean...

Good Theory but he can't convince me

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

By all accounts the Dutchman's ore was of rose quarts, not Smokie quarts such as the match box or the other ore, so those two ores may come from the pit mine but not the Dutchman's.

It seams mine has a way better match but nothing to match to. Know known ore exits like this that I know of.

So Joe maybe I will rewrite the Dutchman's History in a book and follow my mother and brother into the book business.

And to prove I solved the Peralta Stones I gave a fellow TN member the start and a good understanding of how it works
lets see if he finds me at the end. It'll take him awhile but I'm sure he'll leave me a note or something at the mine sometime.

babymick1

 

[Oroblanco]

In the recent video, Nugget of Truth, Ron Feldman states that John Kochera and the gold ore he found is absolute proof the Lost Dutchman Mine exists, where it exists and that the LDM is the Pit Mine in the eastern Superstitions.

Feldman further states John Kochera’s ore is a match to known Dutchman ore and was proven a match by TE Glover’s testing of that ore in 1998.

The theory that the Pit Mine is the Lost Dutchman Mine is based on the premise that the gold John and Joe Kochera found on Peters Mesa in 1962 actually came from the Pit Mine. And that the Pit Mine, also known earlier as the Silver Chief Mine, was indeed the mine of Jacob Waltz the Dutchman.

Ron Feldman holds up the 1998 TE Glover ore analysis results as the proof that Kochera got his ore from the Pit Mine and Pit Mine ore matches Dutchman ore.

But TE Glover’s own determination of the ore testing in his 2000 book, The Golden Dream, is at odds with this premise.

In 1998 TE Glover tested 6 separate samples of gold ore to determine if any of them matched the known sample of Dutchman ore. Testing was done at the Mackey School of Mines in Reno Nevada using SEM and EDS technology.

Known Dutchman ore is present today in the form of a Matchbox as well as a few gold samples that survived which were found under Waltz’s bed at his death.


Six gold samples were tested against the known Dutchman gold ore.

Vulture Mine Ore

Black Queen Mine Ore

Mammoth Mine Ore

Bulldog Mine Ore

Kochera Ore

Camp Ore


TE Glover’s results showed the Vulture Mine Ore was from a completely different type of ore with almost no similarity whatsoever to the Dutchman Ore.

The Black Queen, Mammoth and Bulldog Ores were all three similar to themselves but not similar to Dutchman Ore and not of the same elements and composition as Dutchman Ore.

The Kochera Ore had similar elements as the Dutchman Ore but also had its own unique element composition which was not present in the Dutchman Ore. TE Glover determined Kochera Ore was a close match but too far apart to have come from the same mine.


Of all the ores tested the Camp Ore was the closest match to Dutchman Ore in composition, elements, type of quartz and matrix. It was further determined during the test that Dutchman Ore and the Camp Ore sample both came from the same geologic event.


The TE Glover explanation of his ore testing and an overview of the results are found in his book published in 2000, The Golden Dream.

Matthew

Great post Matthew, my compliments.

I will have to respectfully disagree with the statements about the tests having little or no value, and would point out that this is ignoring the quote test unquote of having a geologist do a mineral comparison. This is done with the eye of the geologist and a strong magnifier, as well as a scratch test kit and a few other things, to identify as much of the minerals in a specific ore sample and catalog them. Clearly no one here has ever had an ore comparison done by this rather old and non techie method of examining an ore specimen.

Not to trash the new and high tech devices available for geological study today, they are great, but all have their limitations as AZ Dave just pointed out.

BabyMick can you tell me where to find the sources that said the Dutchman ore is or was a rose quartz or red quartz? I have heard this before but the only sources I know of described the Dutchman ore as a white quartz. Thanks in advance,

Please do continue,

 

[wrmickel1]

I've heard of White with pinhead dots of gold, Taking out by the trunk load. The so called match case and other one's in private hands. My source for rose quarts are mostly from 80 / 90 year olds I've talked to who heard of the ledgen as youngers 80 / 70 years Pryor to now. They say the ledgen started with rose quarts the morphed into white later. I believe
you have to get to the source and not believe the modern bs of all these Dutchman's books. I believe the word of those who are there the old folks.

Thats my main source but I read it here and there now and then. White is not the correct color unless you believe in the match case.

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

As a side note even the Marlboro Man told me it was Rose quarts, He passed in 2007 in a nursing home in Kingman from cancer

babymick1

 

[azdave35]

As a side note even the Marlboro Man told me it was Rose quarts, He passed in 2007 in a nursing home in Kingman from cancer

babymick1

the idea that jacob's ore was in rose quartz was probably started by barry storm....his ore was definitely not rose quartz

 

[wrmickel1]

the idea that jacob's ore was in rose quartz was probably started by barry storm....his ore was definitely not rose quartz

Did Berry ever find some or you talking about the Dutchman's Ore.

babymick1

 

[wrmickel1]

Just asking berry might be the source for the white, kinda a movie prop or something like that.

babymick1

 

[Oroblanco]

Thanks Mick, however I don't see any reason to doubt the matchbox ore as coming from the Dutchman's mine. Holmes had it made and claimed it came from the ore he had got from Waltz. Why would he have a piece of ore made into the matchbox, if he was lying? It would not make any sense.

I also don't put my trust in what others say, I prefer to get as close to the original as possible, there is less chance for errors and lies to get into the mix. That said, there are some excellent modern books, like the works of Dr Glover just mentioned, as well as a few others.

Thanks for letting me know where you got the rose/red quartz version.

Please do continue,