The Rock Man

skyhawk1251

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Not all of the tents are the same. Red boxes enclose tents where their hipped roofs are clearly seen. The red circle encloses a spot where some modification has taken place. A place could have been cleared there for a fire ring. Some flat stones could have been positioned to serve as bench seats. A group of people were apparently camped there, perhaps a scouting troop or trail maintenance crew.

4.png
 

markmar

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You could be right, I thought also about this, but white tends i have seen only in Sahara where are not trees for cover. I can't remenber to see a white tend anywhere at the our local camping stores. Usually are two colors made or one of prominent colour to can be distinguished in the field. And somebody who knows the region, would knew how little above that spot which is almost in the wash, is the place of Chuck Aylor's camp which provide a clean flat region , a fire ring and water.
Whatever were those shapes, my imput was made for two reasons, for the fallen rocks and the arrastras. With the arrastras i wanted to stimulate some thoughts about how far away could be a mine from the arrastras. From what I have found and I have seen in my all period of treasure hunting, a gold/silver mine to can be operated by group of miners, needs at least five arrastras for the crushing of the ore, with the first till the last to be as possible close to the mine. So I say how if a flat region would been few yards from the mine, then there would been set the arrastras. But a large flat close to a mine is very rare and the miners had to set them around at distances which started from few decades yards to few hundred yards.
I know of two gold mines ( none LDM ) in the vicinity of where Russ is searching, so somewhere there around should be about ten arrastras which could lead someone closer to find them. Usually the one which is in the ruggest region it's the nearest to the mine.
To understand how this works, i will post an aerial image of the arrastras ( yellow circles ) from San Pedro of Tumacacori mine. If you look below the far right arrastra, you can see the path which leads to the mine.
 

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EDN

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I would have to agree, these are tents not rocks. You can almost make out the lines and edges that would be expected in a tent structure. I think the tents and other smaller rocks are white due to the Google Earth camera and angle. These photos are taken from a satellite. My experience has been Google Earth images and what is actually out there can be significantly different. In the 3D or terrain setting on, cliffs in google earth are rounded and distorted that what is real.

Those missing rocks look very large. How, the heck could someone move them without leaving tracks from a vehicle or large piece of equipment.
 

EDN

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I have a picture of the rock that I think was the rock that Waltz was talking about. I find the picture and post it in a few days. The rock I found had fallen over and I believe lying face down. I found it after looking at another picture and the path I think Waltz took to the mine. It was broken when I found it. When I rolled over it looked like a face to me. One of the eyes is smooth and the other is rough. I think one of the eyes could have been made with a pick. The rock was about 6 feet tall and appeared to be shaped like it had shoulders. Anyway, I will find the picture and post it on the feed.

I also recently went on my most likely last hunt for the Lost Dutchman. I would like to post all the stuff and reasons that lead me to my search locations. I'm certain I will get some your crazy responses but, I think some will find quite interesting. It follows the death bed directions and a few other drawings that I think came from Waltz. I did not find the mine. However, I still think it is on this hill side I have been looking. Sorry I don't have time to share everything now. However, I will over the next several weeks.
 

skyhawk1251

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You could be right. I thought also about this, but white tents I have seen only in the Sahara where there are no trees for cover. I can't remember seeing a white tent anywhere at our local camping stores. Usually they are two colors or one prominent color that can be distinguished in the field. And somebody who knows the region would know how close above that spot, which is almost in the wash, is the place of Chuck Aylor's camp which provides a clean flat region, a fire ring and water.

Whatever were those shapes, my input was made for two reasons -- for the fallen rocks and the arrastras. With the arrastras I wanted to stimulate some thoughts about how far away a mine could be from the arrastras. From what I have found and I have seen in my all years of treasure hunting, a gold/silver mine operated by group of miners needs at least five arrastras for the crushing of the ore, with the first to the last being as close as possible to the mine. So I would say if a flat region was a few yards from the mine, then the arrastras would have been built there. But a large flat spot close to a mine is very rare and the miners had to set them at distances which ranged from few tens of yards to a few hundred yards.

I know of two gold mines (none LDM) in the vicinity of where Russ is searching, so somewhere around there should be about ten arrastras, which could lead someone closer to find them. Usually the one that is in the most rugged region is the nearest to the mine. To understand how this works, I will post an aerial image of the arrastras (yellow circles) from San Pedro of the Tumacacori Mine. If you look below the far right arrastra, you can see the path which leads to the mine. -- markmar (edited)

The subject of arrastras is diverging from the original thread topic, but I would agree that under ideal conditions arrastras would have been built as close as possible to mines, which is in keeping with what is seen on many of the very old maps that are studied by LDM hunters. In your GE image, what you've circled as arrastras I see as being places where large volumes of volcanic gases were expelled from thick lava flows. The vented gases left behind circular patterns in the thick lava. If those circular patterns were arrastras, I see no logical reason why they would be positioned as they are. The distances between them are not extreme and they could have been better positioned closer together. I don't see a path/trail leading anywhere.


San Pedro.jpg
 
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skyhawk1251

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I would have to agree, these are tents not rocks. You can almost make out the lines and edges that would be expected in a tent structure. I think the tents and other smaller rocks are white due to the Google Earth camera and angle. These photos are taken from a satellite. My experience has been that Google Earth images and what is actually out there can be significantly different. With the 3D or terrain setting ON, cliffs in Google Earth are rounded and distorted compared to what is real. Those missing rocks look very large. How the heck could someone move them without leaving tracks from a vehicle or large piece of equipment. -- EDN

You're correct about Google Earth. Colors and elevation variations are not shown accurately.
 

skyhawk1251

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I have a picture of the rock that I think was the rock that Waltz was talking about. I will find the picture and post it in a few days. The rock I found had fallen over and I believe it was lying face down. I found it after looking at another picture and the path I think Waltz took to the mine. It was broken when I found it. When I rolled it over it looked like a face to me. One of the eyes is smooth and the other is rough. I think one of the eyes could have been made with a pick. The rock was about 6 feet tall and appeared to be shaped like it had shoulders. Anyway, I will find the picture and post it on the feed.

I also recently went on my most likely last hunt for the Lost Dutchman. I would like to post all the stuff and reasons that led me to my search locations. I'm certain I will get some crazy responses, but I think some will find it quite interesting. It follows the death bed directions and a few other drawings that I think came from Waltz. I did not find the mine. However, I still think it is on this hillside where I have been looking. Sorry that I don't have time to share everything now. However, I will over the next several weeks. -- EDN

Your photo of the rock and your explorations for the LDM will be very interesting. I think your theories about the location of the LDM will be welcomed, because you don't seem to be adamant that only your theories are correct and everyone else is wrong. What seems to generate the most "heat" in this forum is when somebody claims absolutely, undeniably to have found the LDM, but has no proof to justify their "discovery." Probably most importantly, most "finders" don't make any effort to go to the location of their "discovery."
 
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Idahodutch

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Could those large, white "boulders" be tents? That's how I see them. Nevertheless, another excellent post, markmar. You search, and you find. Those who never search will never find.
I would also agree that the “boulders” are tents. The color seems to be uniform and quite possibly white or near white.
Scout groups usually purchase camping equipment, if possible, when nice equipment of enough stock, or even better, overstock, or something that just didn’t sell, is somehow made known, to the troop committee, so a “deal” could be made. No matter the color.🥺
If that was a scout troop, I think they’re fortunate to have ended up with whitish tents 😁👍.

A good little mystery is fun 😁. I’m glad markmar posted it.
 
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Idahodutch

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You could be right, I thought also about this, but white tends i have seen only in Sahara where are not trees for cover. I can't remenber to see a white tend anywhere at the our local camping stores. Usually are two colors made or one of prominent colour to can be distinguished in the field. And somebody who knows the region, would knew how little above that spot which is almost in the wash, is the place of Chuck Aylor's camp which provide a clean flat region , a fire ring and water.
Whatever were those shapes, my imput was made for two reasons, for the fallen rocks and the arrastras. With the arrastras i wanted to stimulate some thoughts about how far away could be a mine from the arrastras. From what I have found and I have seen in my all period of treasure hunting, a gold/silver mine to can be operated by group of miners, needs at least five arrastras for the crushing of the ore, with the first till the last to be as possible close to the mine. So I say how if a flat region would been few yards from the mine, then there would been set the arrastras. But a large flat close to a mine is very rare and the miners had to set them around at distances which started from few decades yards to few hundred yards.
I know of two gold mines ( none LDM ) in the vicinity of where Russ is searching, so somewhere there around should be about ten arrastras which could lead someone closer to find them. Usually the one which is in the ruggest region it's the nearest to the mine.
To understand how this works, i will post an aerial image of the arrastras ( yellow circles ) from San Pedro of Tumacacori mine. If you look below the far right arrastra, you can see the path which leads to the mine.
Good morning markmar,
I have some thoughts about arrastras. The average gold mine, or perhaps just a typical one …… would need arrastras to crush the ore.

There was something unique about this last Peralta mine, where in the ore really didn’t need to be crushed, to get the gold out. Merely smacked with a hammer.

Then Waltz’s mine was also unique in that it was more gold than quartz. No arrastra was needed, 🤓.
 

markmar

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Good morning markmar,
I have some thoughts about arrastras. The average gold mine, or perhaps just a typical one …… would need arrastras to crush the ore.

There was something unique about this last Peralta mine, where in the ore really didn’t need to be crushed, to get the gold out. Merely smacked with a hammer.

Then Waltz’s mine was also unique in that it was more gold than quartz. No arrastra was needed, 🤓.

Hi Idahodutch

If you meant as the last Peralta mine the LDM inclined shaft, was said how only the gold which was in the hematite vein beside of that with white quartz was easy to be scratch out of the wall and take the gold out by smacking with a hammer. Just for your info, what Waltz saw as a round Indian ruin, in reality was an arrastra ruin. Was exactly where it should be, on the first saddle near the mine. IMO, the Indians have not any reason to build something on that saddle or to make camp there. Too narrow, isolated and little afar from a spring. Also there is a dead end for a horse trail and could not be used as a hideout.
What Waltz said about his own mine in the Superstitions, was at the time he found the outcrop as a residual placer, so the quartz was washed away by the rains and the most part was gold. Herman said " Waltz abandoned the inclined shaft mine because he found a vein where there was more gold than quartz ".
Now about the rock man which is a rock which is standing in the brush and looks like a man. How we can distinguish a human between other animals that can stand up on their feet? Of course from the face. So IMHO, Waltz meant a man's face rock which is standing in the brush. Also Waltz hasn't mentioned if the face is a single rock in the field or a part of a cliff, or if it's on the sky line or lower with another landmark in the backround. Or, if the ridge on which could be seen the rock face above it's that which holds the rock or it's a ridge which it's infront of the mountain which holds the rock and the elevation make it to looks like it's on it. So here Waltz left a large room for different interpretations., with everyone's opinion to be acceptable until could be proven wrong.
 

markmar

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The subject of arrastras is diverging from the original thread topic, but I would agree that under ideal conditions arrastras would have been built as close as possible to mines, which is in keeping with what is seen on many of the very old maps that are studied by LDM hunters. In your GE image, what you've circled as arrastras I see as being places where large volumes of volcanic gases were expelled from thick lava flows. The vented gases left behind circular patterns in the thick lava. If those circular patterns were arrastras, I see no logical reason why they would be positioned as they are. The distances between them are not extreme and they could have been better positioned closer together. I don't see a path/trail leading anywhere.


View attachment 2017960
No vented gases there, but the only flat regions close to the mine.
 

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skyhawk1251

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I have some thoughts about arrastras. The average gold mine, or perhaps just a typical one, would need arrastras to crush the ore. There was something unique about this last Peralta mine, where the ore really didn't need to be crushed to get the gold out. Merely smacked with a hammer. Then Waltz's mine was also unique in that it was more gold than quartz. No arrastra was needed? -- Idahodutch

I'm not an expert on arrastras. I do know they were used to crush ore and free the gold from what would be called "slag" if the ore had been smelted. Once the ore had been crushed, I'm assuming everything would be finely ground into small particles -- gold and waste rock combined. I'm not sure how this particulate matter was processed. Because I've seen very old maps that show arrastras located near water sources, I'm also assuming that the gold and waste rock combination was run through a sluice. The fine gold was trapped in the riffles of the sluice. I'm also familiar with the amalgamation process, where the gold is amalgamated with mercury, then the gold is separated from the mercury. I can't see, or don't understand, how the amalgamation process could be directly used in arrastras, which at best could have had only rough bedrock as the lower grinding surface, making collection of the gold/mercury amalgam difficult. I've seen refurbished stamp mills that use the sluice process on crushed ore, so I favor the idea that ore was first crushed in an arrastra, then run through a sluice.

Some of the ore found under Waltz's death bed was crushed to free the gold -- crushed with a hammer if I remember correctly. That ore could be classified as free mill gold ore, where the gold separates cleanly from the ore-bearing rock. No arrastra was needed for Waltz's rich ore, although I'd guess that he might have panned the finest material to retrieve all the gold he could.
 

skyhawk1251

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No vented gases there, but the only flat regions close to the mine.

Correct, markmar, no vented gases there now, but millions of years ago when volcanoes were erupting and lava was flowing there were vented gases. Those circular features are the remnants of gases rushing to the surface.
 

markmar

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I'm not an expert on arrastras. I do know they were used to crush ore and free the gold from what would be called "slag" if the ore had been smelted. Once the ore had been crushed, I'm assuming everything would be finely ground into small particles -- gold and waste rock combined. I'm not sure how this particulate matter was processed. Because I've seen very old maps that show arrastras located near water sources, I'm also assuming that the gold and waste rock combination was run through a sluice. The fine gold was trapped in the riffles of the sluice. I'm also familiar with the amalgamation process, where the gold is amalgamated with mercury, then the gold is separated from the mercury. I can't see, or don't understand, how the amalgamation process could be directly used in arrastras, which at best could have had only rough bedrock as the lower grinding surface, making collection of the gold/mercury amalgam difficult. I've seen refurbished stamp mills that use the sluice process on crushed ore, so I favor the idea that ore was first crushed in an arrastra, then run through a sluice.

Some of the ore found under Waltz's death bed was crushed to free the gold -- crushed with a hammer if I remember correctly. That ore could be classified as free mill gold ore, where the gold separates cleanly from the ore-bearing rock. No arrastra was needed for Waltz's rich ore, although I'd guess that he might have panned the finest material to retrieve all the gold he could.
I don't believe the ore under the Waltz deathbed was a free mill gold ore. Jim Bark said how saw Dick Holmes and Gideon Roberts crashing gold ore but he didn't mention the reason they were doing that process. Maybe they wanted to reduce the waste quartz from the ore or to make more pieces. The ore under Waltz deathbed was in white quartz which is known as a hard quartz.
 

markmar

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Correct, markmar, no vented gases there now, but millions of years ago when volcanoes were erupting and lava was flowing there were vented gases. Those circular features are the remnants of gases rushing to the surface.
Cities were covered by dust in few thousand years, so imagine how those volcanic vents would looked like after millions of years. Maybe we need another expert opinion.
 
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Idahodutch

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Cities were covered by dust in few thousand years, so imagine how those volcanic vents would looked like after millions of years. Maybe we need another expert opinion.
Just one expert opinion to start, would be nice. 😂🤣

So far we can only offer speculation. Even an experts opinion would still be speculation …. Imho 😁
 
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Idahodutch

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So back to rock men 🤪
I would Ike to see EDN’s rock man, if he posts it, and any others anyone wants to share 👍😁
 

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