Just where was first water and second water location in the 1890’s……anyone??

rk85044

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I can only assume today’s first and second ARE NOT the ones of yesteryear…..am I wrong in this thinking?
 

skyhawk1251

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I, also, have made the same assumption. Nor do I believe that most of the trails that are presently in the SMWA were there in the 1890's. The trails that exist now are modern-day creations designed primarily for hiking. They do not lead to places that old-time prospectors or miners would have been interested in going. I believe that old-timers would have mainly used major canyons to access the mountains, and then would have branched-off relatively short distances from the major canyons to reach mineral-rich locations. They would have chosen the easiest and shortest routes to get to where they wanted to go. Those routes also would have needed to be suitable for pack animals. This is my opinion, not based on any research, just common sense logic.
 

markmar

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I can only assume today’s first and second ARE NOT the ones of yesteryear…..am I wrong in this thinking?
The " first water ' and the " second water " from the clues which Waltz told to Holmes, are the same Waltz told Julia in the " German clues ". Is the north route Waltz used to go from Phoenix to his mine, also the same route Holmes tracked Waltz in the mountains. When Waltz told to Holmes of the " waters ", he knew Holmes would understand about what " waters " was referring. And these " waters " are:

The " first water " - “Ich kreuze der grunen fluss unten am ein fort” ( I cross the Green River below the fort ).

The " second water " - "Ich kreuze der Salz fluss an der felsenseichter" ( I cross the Salt River at the rocky shallow ).
 
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rk85044

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The " first water ' and the " second water " from the clues which Waltz told to Holmes, are the same Waltz told Julia in the " German clues ". Is the north route Waltz used to go from Phoenix to his mine, also the same route Holmes tracked Waltz in the mountains. When Waltz told to Holmes of the " waters ", he knew Holmes would understand about what " waters " was referring. And these " waters " are:

The " first water " - “Ich kreuze der grunen fluss unten am ein fort” ( I cross the Green River below the fort ).

The " second water " - "Ich kreuze der Salz fluss an der felsenseichter" ( I cross the Salt River at the rocky shallow ).
 
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rk85044

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Thank you Marius
Makes sense…and in finding where fort McDowell once stood ….would put these entry points more north and west of present day accepted sites…
Or do the logic…. Regardless … the ldm is between 2 oblong outcrops on a 12 foot ledge…with or without a juniper hiding the entrance ….at the lip of a high cliff….in a high arroyo…. Correct?
 

markmar

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Thank you Marius
Makes sense…and in finding where fort McDowell once stood ….would put these entry points more north and west of present day accepted sites…
Or do the logic…. Regardless … the ldm is between 2 oblong outcrops on a 12 foot ledge…with or without a juniper hiding the entrance ….at the lip of a high cliff….in a high arroyo…. Correct?
rk85044, the clues which you wrote above are for three different mines.

The " 12 foot ledge " is for the LDM inclined shaft, the mine which found Waltz when killed the Mexicans, the " juniper hiding the mine which is at the lip of a cliff " is for the LDM mine which Waltz found it as a residual placer of a gold in quartz outcrop and dug it as a new mine, and the " between two oblong outcrops " is for a mine Stevens has found and is a different mine than the LDMs. Actually, the Stevens mine holds beside the rich gold ore, a treasure which contains church gold ornaments and gold bars.

Few clues which are attached to the LDM clues , in reality are for treasure sites. The clues told by Diaz, Stevens and San Carlos Apache are for treasure sites and have nothing to do with the LDMs.
 
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rk85044

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rk85044, the clues which you wrote above are for three different mines.

The " 12 foot ledge " is for the LDM inclined shaft, the mine which found Waltz when killed the Mexicans, the " juniper hiding the mine which is at the lip of a cliff " is for the LDM mine which Waltz found it as a residual placer of a gold in quartz outcrop and dug it as a new mine, and the " between two oblong outcrops " is for a mine Stevens has found and is a different mine than the LDMs. Actually, the Stevens mine holds beside the rich gold ore, a treasure which contains church gold ornaments and gold bars.

Few clues which are attached to the LDM clues , in reality are for treasure sites. The clues told by Diaz, Stevens and San Carlos Apache are for treasure sites and have nothing to do with the LDMs.
Thank you for clarifying. One last question about clues…. The one of the circle, the triangle and the crescent
Where across the crescent… are 4 stones…. That form a straight line that points to the mine…….which ldm are they talking about….the one above… or the drift….
 

markmar

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Thank you for clarifying. One last question about clues…. The one of the circle, the triangle and the crescent
Where across the crescent… are 4 stones…. That form a straight line that points to the mine…….which ldm are they talking about….the one above… or the drift….
Like I wrote, Diaz's clues are for a mine which holds Spanish gold bars and not for any LDM. This mine was found by a group in the 1940's and some mentions about have been wrote by Estee Conatser and Bob Ward in their books.
At this mine, above the circle-triangle -crescend clue, are 4 rocks which are lined with the mine's entrance. If you know about this spot, tell me how large are those rocks to see if we are talking about the same place.

Here is an aerial image of the clue
 

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skyhawk1251

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The "first water" and the "second water" from the clues which Waltz told to Holmes are the same Waltz told Julia in the "German clues." Is the north route Waltz used to go from Phoenix to his mine, also the same route Holmes tracked Waltz in the mountains. When Waltz told Holmes of the "waters", he knew Holmes would understand about what "waters" was referring. And these "waters" are:

The "first water" - Ich kreuze der grunen fluss unten am ein fort (I cross the Green River below the fort).

The "second water" - Ich kreuze der Salz fluss an der felsenseichter (I cross the Salt River at the rocky shallow).

Another excellent post, markmar. I would say you are absolutely correct. "Waters" certainly would not refer to creeks that flow only during certain brief times of the year, nor would they refer to springs or seeps which don't have to be crossed. "Waters" could only refer to significant, ever-present streams/rivers.
 
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rk85044

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Like I wrote, Diaz's clues are for a mine which holds Spanish gold bars and not for any LDM. This mine was found by a group in the 1940's and some mentions about have been wrote by Estee Conatser and Bob Ward in their books.
At this mine, above the circle-triangle -crescend clue, are 4 rocks which are lined with the mine's entrance. If you know about this spot, tell me how large are those rocks to see if we are talking about the same place.

Here is an aerial image of the clue
Well the rocks I found are man made cut… straight as an arrow…blocks really…that can be moved…but only with some effort… the sad part is that I found them forming a line before covid…. Now 2 years later…in the same spot…only 3 exist….and not configured the the same way either…
 

markmar

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Well the rocks I found are man made cut… straight as an arrow…blocks really…that can be moved…but only with some effort… the sad part is that I found them forming a line before covid…. Now 2 years later…in the same spot…only 3 exist….and not configured the the same way either…
For sure we are talking about different locations.
 

markmar

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For sure we are talking about different locations.
At the spot of the Diaz clue, the rocks were collected from the field and are about two foot large each. They are lined to the mine's entrance which has a shape of a triangle at the size of a baby piano ( about 4,2 feet ). It's the same mine/cave LaFrance told he found in the mountains but forgot where was located ( ??? ). In reality LAFrance worked for another person who bought the gold bar and was using the fake clues which the saller had told him.

Here is an aerial image of the rocks pointing to the mine
 

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rk85044

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Thank you for the insight…
Last question on this…
Was this Diaz mine filled in or covered
And is there any mention of any symbols near the open…
Thank you Marius
 

markmar

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Thank you for the insight…
Last question on this…
Was this Diaz mine filled in or covered
And is there any mention of any symbols near the open…
Thank you Marius
When the group found the mine/cave, it was partially covered. By now it's totally covered. No mentions of symbols near the open, just the Diaz clue which are about 20 feet away.
 
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rk85044

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When the group found the mine/cave, it was partially covered. By now it's totally covered. No mentions of symbols near the open, just the Diaz clue which are about 20 feet away.
Thank you Marius
Will document more thoroughly on the next hike in… thank you again!
 

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