The San Jose galeon and Spains claim

[Capt.Betances]

The San Jose galeon and Spain's claim

Hi all

I don't use to write in this forum, but I see something in the news that disappoint to me big time. Everybody knows about the San Jose in Colombia that it was found and removed by Colombia government. Now, Spain is doing its claim about that ships and its cargo. Honestly, this is totally immoral from Spain. Spain had more than 330 years to find that ship and retrieve it. However, they use to wait that somebody else find an old ships to make their reclaim.

I believe that all country around the world should give a sort of "ultimatum" or written warning to Spain about its lost and sunken ships. If Spain wants its lost ships, they should look for and remove its ships before some treasure Hunter find one.

That's all

 

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[Salvor6]

Hello Capt. Betances, as far as I know, nothing has been removed from the San Jose in Colombia.

 

[Capt.Betances]

Hello Capt. Betances, as far as I know, nothing has been removed from the San Jose in Colombia.

This 23th of this month I will be in Colombia hunting for relics. If I find some news about the San José, I will post here.

 

[enrada]

You would probably be interested in reading an article about the San Jose in <lawstreetmedia.com> and the comment I made at the end of the article.

Jack

 

[old man]

I'd probably be more interested if you just posted what you said about the San Jose.

 

[Salvor6]

Here is what Jack posted on "lawstreetmedia."

Jack Dyer · Regina, Saskatchewan
Jillian
For once a reporter that did some research for a shipwreck article.
Just to add that President Santos and all other countries that signed on to the 2009 UNESCO law should be aware that they could LOSE the total shipwreck to Spain under this law. Countries need to rethink their position. More wrecks are found by private industry than any other entity. Private industry takes all the risks. Private industry has the technology and resources to recover these shipwrecks archaeologically.
17 B is a fictional figure. Back in the day when the Atocha was found P of 8 were in short supply so Mel Fisher was a ble to get $1000 a piece. Since then many galleons have been found with thousands of P of 8 on board. They can be acquired on Ebay for $100 to $200 for a nice one. The San Jose may have 5 to 10 million P of 8 on it. Also most of the gold from South America was taken by the Spanish and Catholic Church by about 1630. What might be interesting would be any emeralds from the Muzo mine in Columbia.
If the San Jose was found by private industry, Archaeologists would be jumping up and down saying it is a war grave and it has to remain insitu. If you replace the word insitu in any article written by an Archaeologist with these words "for job security" you will start to understand why the UNESCO law was passed. Have you ever been in the back room of a museum where human bones are cataloged and stored in boxes? Private industry working with cooperating Archaeologists can achieve unbelievable results. What ever happened to Admiralty Law anyway. Admiralty has been in effect since the 18th(?) century.
Why did the San Jose blow up? In 1577- 1580 Francis Drake sailed around the world. Drake pillaged and plundered everything Spanish on the west coast of South America. Spain instantly became alarmed that their plundering of Inca treasure had been discovered. Spain put out a decree to all Captains to "burn the ship, sink the ship, or throw all the treasure overboard" in an effort to keep it out of the hands of pirates, privateers and any other entity. Any Spanish Captain allowing his treasure to fall into enemy hands would be hung. This is not fiction and history points this out. How does a ship blow up having a cannon ball hit the gun powder magazine which was deep in the hold? Funny thing that the Merchant Royal 1805(?) just happened to blow up as well when it was about to be captured. I can also point to another situation where the Spanish Captain deliberately threw all the gold overboard to keep a privateer from capturing it. The Spanish Captain thereby deliberately abandoned the treasure thereby eliminating Spain from any claim to it today.
If Spain was serious about recovering their plundering shipwrecks why don't they spend their time searching for and recovering all lost shipwrecks that carried tons of mercury used for mining silver and gold. Some of this mercury has changed to methyl mercury and made it's way into the food chain in the ocean. A serious issue that Spain seems to just totally ignore. They only want the gold and silver and religious vestments after private industry have recovered them.
I urge all countries in the world to review and withdraw their signatory to the UNESCO law. I urge all reporters to talk to private industry to get both sides of the story before making wild and untrue statements regarding shipwrecks.
Jack Dyer
responsible archaeological underwater shipwreck finder

 

[Finn]

Hi Fellows

As i wrote in an other thread about this San Jose case, i will repeat it here too; Colombia has not ratified the UNESCO 2001 underwater cultural heritage convention. They were aware about the legal position where they would be found what comes to San Jose and other spanish ship wrecks in their waters if they would had ratified it.

Ratified and Non-Ratified Conventions by Country

Spain did some heavy weight lobbying during the preparation process of the convention. Their goal was to secure good legal position when claiming valuable ship wrecks in other countries territorial waters. They are not interested of archaeological excavations and cultural heritage but just about the treasure.

These ideological archaeologists who think that all excavations and studies must be done with public funding with out any commercial interests involved are romantic fools. It is clear that Spain's interest for example is mainly economic in these cases. UNESCO is just a good cover up for their intentions.

Salud

Finn

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Hi Fellows

As i wrote in an other thread about this San Jose case, i will repeat it here too; Colombia has not ratified the UNESCO 2001 underwater cultural heritage convention. They were aware about the legal position where they would be found what comes to San Jose and other spanish ship wrecks in their waters if they would had ratified it.

Ratified and Non-Ratified Conventions by Country

Spain did some heavy weight lobbying during the preparation process of the convention. Their goal was to secure good legal position when claiming valuable ship wrecks in other countries territorial waters. They are not interested of archaeological excavations and cultural heritage but just about the treasure.

These ideological archaeologists who think that all excavations and studies must be done with public funding with out any commercial interests involved are romantic fools. It is clear that Spain's interest for example is mainly economic in these cases. UNESCO is just a good cover up for their intentions.

Salud

Finn

Hola Finn
Treasure hunters keep making statements about Spain's greed and its " Economic " Can anybody tell me when Spain has sold any of its recovered wrecks
The best example is the Mercedes , not one coin SOLD ! They currently have a exhibition traveling around Spain, currently in Cadiz .
So how can it be Economic
It will end up in museum ,Just like the Mercedes . And I guarantee if Colombia works with Spain, Spain will recover it with archaeologist's from both countries

 

[Alexandre]

Here are my declarations on the subject to Radio W in Colombia:

El único tesoro es el contexto del San José y su descubrimiento: Alexandre Monteiro | 20151209

 

[Darren in NC]

Can anybody tell me when Spain has sold any of its recovered wrecks?

First, they didn't care for centuries until the National Park Service and James Goold persuaded them to react in the Sea Hunt case 15 years ago. Up until then, they understood admiralty/salvage law. Show me any case where they contested their colonial wrecks outside of their territorial waters. To be fair, the greed began with an agenda from our own U.S gov't. Sad.

Second, "its recovered wrecks" - really? Recovered by whom? Show me one case where Spain used gov't monies to recover a wreck.

 

[Alexandre]

First, they didn't care for centuries until the National Park Service and James Goold persuaded them to react in the Sea Hunt case 15 years ago. Up until then, they understood admiralty/salvage law. Show me any case where they contested their colonial wrecks outside of their territorial waters. To be fair, the greed began with an agenda from our own U.S gov't. Sad.

Second, "its recovered wrecks" - really? Recovered by whom? Show me one case where Spain used gov't monies to recover a wreck.

Several wrecks have been excavated by Spanish archaeologists: Bou Ferrer, Bajo de la Campana, Mazarrón, Cala Culip (I, II, III, IV, V, VI and VII), Les Sorres X, Cala Sant Vicenç, Roses y Empordá, Cap del Vol, Matagrana...

 

[Darren in NC]

Alexandre, Spain used gov't funding to excavate these wrecks off the Iberian peninsula? Interestingly enough, your ships mentioned brought me to your interview at:

Monteiro: «Excavar científicamente un pecio ibérico de época moderna les robaría el viento a los cazatesoros» | Espejo de navegantes

The translator has you stating: After all, not a single archaeologist has ever dug a treasure boat, we have always been late to the wrecks that had been looted by treasure hunters.

I find it comical that underwater archaeology wasn't considered possible a few decades ago. It wasn't until the private sector began salvaging wrecks with land archaeologists that your industry was even born. Now you visit sites like this one to fight against the very thing that began your livelihood. I'll let your logic speak for itself.

 

[Alexandre]

"Not a single archaeologist has ever dug a treasure boat" - sure, I stand by it.

Who knows, maybe I will be the first to do it - after all, I have a VOC jacht with 30.000 silver coins and a 22 ton cargo of gold and silver on a galleon on my project area...

http://museoarqua.mcu.es/web/uploads/ficheros/bepmnaufragio.pdf

 

[MORE AND BEYOND OSSY]

Here are my declarations on the subject to Radio W in Colombia:

El único tesoro es el contexto del San José y su descubrimiento: Alexandre Monteiro | 20151209

I love your statement " Its the world's heritage "
You speak excellent Spanish . It would be great if you would lead the excavation
Regards

 

[Alexandre]

I love your statement " Its the world's heritage "
You speak excellent Spanish . It would be great if you would lead the excavation
Regards

Ah!, I like to get my hands on the stuff, but I like my sites to be divable!

 

[Darren in NC]

You didn't address your poor logic, or whether Spain spent gov't monies to fund the Iberian Peninsula wrecks.

 

[Alexandre]

You didn't address your poor logic, or whether Spain spent gov't monies to fund the Iberian Peninsula wrecks.

Sorry, I missed the logical part (I am a non-native English speaker, sometimes I just do not get it).

As for the Spain question, yes, they did.

 

[ARC]

Hi Fellows

As i wrote in an other thread about this San Jose case, i will repeat it here too; Colombia has not ratified the UNESCO 2001 underwater cultural heritage convention. They were aware about the legal position where they would be found what comes to San Jose and other spanish ship wrecks in their waters if they would had ratified it.

Ratified and Non-Ratified Conventions by Country

Spain did some heavy weight lobbying during the preparation process of the convention. Their goal was to secure good legal position when claiming valuable ship wrecks in other countries territorial waters. They are not interested of archaeological excavations and cultural heritage but just about the treasure.

These ideological archaeologists who think that all excavations and studies must be done with public funding with out any commercial interests involved are romantic fools. It is clear that Spain's interest for example is mainly economic in these cases. UNESCO is just a good cover up for their intentions.

Salud

Finn

heh... well said.

 

[Treasure_Hunter]

Spain has no more claim to it than Columbia and since it is their waters Columbia is going to tell Spain to go pound sand.

 

[Darren in NC]

...sometimes I just do not get it.

It's not a language issue :-)

Good for Spain. I am genuinely thrilled they are beginning to see the value of responsible recovery. This is recent, and certainly not part of a long tradition for them. Thanks for sharing those examples. Sorry you can't see how responsible recovery could work for both private and public sectors.