The Two Soldiers

[coazon de oro]

did you find proof that dick actually found the body at hidden water?

Howdy azdave35,

Just what was written about it.

Homar

 

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[coazon de oro]

As far as I know, after all these years of following directions and clues, no one has yet located the LDM and, Dick finding a body at Hidden Water is Brownies story, correct?


Three newspaper articles and Brownie himself corroborate parts of Barks letter. Is there anything, other than his own words, that would support Brownies story?

Dick appears to have been well liked, even respected by the retailers in Phoenix, Tempe and, Mesa. Socially, he and Ida mixed with other country club members, republicans, and I think that both were involved in benevolent societies (Dick, I think was a Freemason... Ida's father certainly was).

Is there anything to support the idea of Dick being a liar?

Hal

Hermano,

We can't judge others when we never even met them. One has to know a person for a very long time to have an idea what kind of person he is. One can't take the word of he who discredits that person either without really having know the discrediter for a very long time. You can have one freind paint a real good picture of you, and an other may do the opposite.

As I said before, some can't help but lie, but every now and then a truth will slip out of them. If Brownie was like this, how do you know when a truth sliped by?

Others who lie every now and then for a reason, are not doing it constantly. So just because they lied several times, it does not mean that every thing they say is a lie.

Homar

 

[Matthew Roberts]

coazon de oro,

You posted this : Howdy Matthew,

Had a fun day yesterday grilling, and celebrating with family, and freinds that I haven't addressed any inquires that have come my way. I don't believe I have to answer any posts in the order they come so I will start with yours, and hope I don't offend anyone.

I too have only heard that Charles Kenison wrote it, but that they were Brownie's words. I have not read TE Glover's new book,( or his others for that matter) so I am not aware if he has any evidence to the contrary. I will tell you that from what I have found, which I can not make public, It would be impossible for anyone to write the Holmes Manuscript without having being by Waltz's deathbed. So if this new evidence finds the Holmes Manuscript as being false, I can guarantee it is based on assumtion.

This is why I have always said that Helen Corbin's, and TE Glover's books are the best books out there, and I know you deserve some of the credit. I know that some of that knowledge you shared was not first hand, but came in good faith. Problem is, there is always someone trying to kill the messenger.

As you, and our good freind Marius point out, many of these stories could have been dismantled when participants were still living. It is in this day and age when everyone has a computer, that we have people butchering time tested stories with assumtions, and lack of informaiton, expecting to find records of everything. Other stories are butchered simply because they can't understand what was recorded. The PSM's for example, being fully aware that Tom K., and B. Corbin (just to name a few) believed they were fake, I offered to prove them otherwise, but never got a response.

Hope to meet you some day Matthew, and do hope you get to uncover the mine. I may quit posting again after today.

Homar

Glad to hear you enjoyed the Labor Day weekend with the family and friends. I was able to get away for a couple days and enjoy some down time with friends down in San Diego.

I have heard several people state TE Glover has proven Brownie Holmes wrote the Holmes Manuscript but cannot find the specifics anywhere.
What is the evidence TE Glover found that Brownie wrote the Manuscript ? I can not find anything, and no one seems to know or is able to tell me what those specifics reasons are.
I would like to know as I always assumed Charles Kenison wrote the Manuscript.

Yes, I agree with you completely concerning your comments on TE Glover and Helen Corbin's books.

The Dutchman community has always had a majority of people who have no respect for others opinions, theories and beliefs. That is just the way it is.
I believe what I believe for my own reasons and respect others beliefs even if I disagree or know them to be wrong. I never feel the need to "win" a debate, or convince someone of something or belittle someone for what they believe.

I hope to be able to meet with you someday also Homar. I hope you keep posting but understand your reluctance. I never posted very much anyway and post very little these days. I don't have much to add to the discussions. I am actively searching for the LDM which takes up much of my time when the weather in Arizona is conducive to being in the Superstitions.

Best to you and the family.

Matthew

 

[sailaway]

Now that I have shown location of area close up, please any visitors to the site do not disturb the rocks laid out in front of lower entrance. I have yet to get close to those to photograph but believe they were put there by JW himself.

Over the entrance to right, should be the M's that are the ore described in the Molina Document.

 

[Old]

Hal, I believe I showed some evidence of Dick Holmes stretching the truth in a recent thread along the same lines as this one. Something as simple as where he was born changed over time.

I personally don't label someone as a dastardly person just because they are prone to creative story telling. I believe it is possible for someone to be well liked AND be prone to exaggerated stories at the same time. To me (just me) it makes them colorful and entertaining, albeit unreliable. To me, its the same as picking up a historical fiction book to pass the time rather than a dry research paper. Each has its place and purpose. Where the rub comes is if someone places too much reliance on the fictional account. Or; manufactures bogus supportive evidence to pass off their amazing story as actual fact ........that's a whole different thing.

For my friends here who mock the quest for verifiable information, I have a serious question for you.

If you are firm in your beliefs of such accounts as the Alkire story..... what parts of the "traditional" story are you willing to part with? You can't have them both as gospel. They contradict one another.

Such as the candlebox. Do you believe there was a candlebox of ore specimens under Waltz death bed? If you do you have to discount heavily the account "supposedly" given by Rhiney to "Bertie Roberts".

In that account Waltz is lying on a pallet for a bed. No room for a candlebox of ore there..........you'd have to place that candlebox somewhere besides under Waltz bed to make that story work. The devil is in the details and every detail that falters chips away at the credibility of the story. They both are not true in every detail. Cherry picking pieces/parts is totally acceptable for choosing your guestimate path to the LDM but doesn't work for establishing a 100% credible source of historical fact.


There are many more such discrepancies. Not the least of which is the involvement of Albert Schaffer in the Alkire accounts, if you believe that you are going to have a difficult time justifying the involvement of Dick Holmes as the innocent and unsuspecting neighbor called in to stand by as Julia went to fitch the doctor. It just doesn't work and no amount of foot stomping and mockery will make it work.

 

[Hal Croves]

Hal, I believe I showed some evidence of Dick Holmes stretching the truth in a recent thread along the same lines as this one. Something as simple as where he was born changed over time.

I personally don't label someone as a dastardly person just because they are prone to creative story telling. I believe it is possible for someone to be well liked AND be prone to exaggerated stories at the same time. To me (just me) it makes them colorful and entertaining, albeit unreliable. To me, its the same as picking up a historical fiction book to pass the time rather than a dry research paper. Each has its place and purpose. Where the rub comes is if someone places too much reliance on the fictional account. Or; manufactures bogus supportive evidence to pass off their amazing story as actual fact ........that's a whole different thing.

For my friends here who mock the quest for verifiable information, I have a serious question for you.

If you are firm in your beliefs of such accounts as the Alkire story..... what parts of the "traditional" story are you willing to part with? You can't have them both as gospel. They contradict one another.

Such as the candlebox. Do you believe there was a candlebox of ore specimens under Waltz death bed? If you do you have to discount heavily the account "supposedly" given by Rhiney to "Bertie Roberts".

In that account Waltz is lying on a pallet for a bed. No room for a candlebox of ore there..........you'd have to place that candlebox somewhere besides under Waltz bed to make that story work. The devil is in the details and every detail that falters chips away at the credibility of the story. They both are not true in every detail. Cherry picking pieces/parts is totally acceptable for choosing your guestimate path to the LDM but doesn't work for establishing a 100% credible source of historical fact.


There are many more such discrepancies. Not the least of which is the involvement of Albert Schaffer in the Alkire accounts, if you believe that you are going to have a difficult time justifying the involvement of Dick Holmes as the innocent and unsuspecting neighbor called in to stand by as Julia went to fitch the doctor. It just doesn't work and no amount of foot stomping and mockery will make it work.

I can understand both.

 

[coazon de oro]

Pallets of the time had room to fit several candle boxes under them.

 

[Old]

Homar, Maybe its colloquial, that's possible. To me....that's a cot, not a pallet bed. Two different things. To me, pallet means straw, feather or some other padding material flat on the floor. Either way.......think this will fit

 

[Matthew Roberts]

coazon de oro,

The "pallet" reference is again being blown out of all proportions.

Webster's dictionary defines pallet as a straw-filled tick or mattress, a small hard bed or any temporary bed.

There is not now nor was there ever a minimum or maximum height for a "pallet", it could lay flat on the floor or be three feet in the air.

I have to say the term "pallet" as used in the context of the LDM account is being confused with a modern day loading pallet that a manufacturer might use.

Sometimes people want things to be a certain way, or not, to prove they are right and more importantly that others are wrong.
This becomes an obsession with some people.
They will go to any length to try and force their point even to the point of taking what was said completely out of it's proper context, assigning their own special definition to it so it seems to prove their agenda.

None of this is any good for an objective view of things that happened 125 years ago.

As I said in a previous post, I never believed the stories as written in the Allen, TE Glover and Helen Corbin's books concerning Waltz's last night.
But I do believe certain parts of those stories.

Best to you,

Matthew

 

[Old]

Matthew, the point is the stories have flaws. Pesky little flaws.

I don't know about your neck of the woods but every Southern born woman knows exactly what a pallet bed is and its main usage. It was to keep babies from rolling out of the high rise beds of the time period during their mid day naps. Also served for unexpected company.........still do.

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew, the point is the stories have flaws. Pesky little flaws.

I don't know about your neck of the woods but every Southern born woman knows exactly what a pallet bed is and its main usage. It was to keep babies from rolling out of the high rise beds of the time period during their mid day naps. Also served for unexpected company.........still do.

Old,

You are preaching to the Choir.

And thank you for your opinion on what you believe a pallet to be. I respect that opinion.

Best,

Matthew

 

[cactusjumper]

coazon de oro,

The "pallet" reference is again being blown out of all proportions.

Webster's dictionary defines pallet as a straw-filled tick or mattress, a small hard bed or any temporary bed.

There is not now nor was there ever a minimum or maximum height for a "pallet", it could lay flat on the floor or be three feet in the air.

I have to say the term "pallet" as used in the context of the LDM account is being confused with a modern day loading pallet that a manufacturer might use.

Sometimes people want things to be a certain way, or not, to prove they are right and more importantly that others are wrong.
This becomes an obsession with some people.
They will go to any length to try and force their point even to the point of taking what was said completely out of it's proper context, assigning their own special definition to it so it seems to prove their agenda.

None of this is any good for an objective view of things that happened 125 years ago.

As I said in a previous post, I never believed the stories as written in the Allen, TE Glover and Helen Corbin's books concerning Waltz's last night.
But I do believe certain parts of those stories.

Best to you,

Matthew

Matthew,

Did you believe the story that you saw, written in Frank Alkire's own hand, or the story his children repeated to you? Were they the same story? You have also stated that your aunt was told the same basic story. Did she tell you that directly or did you read it in her historical writings? If her story was not the same, how was it different than the others?

I have always tried to get to the truth of this story. Originally, I asked you for confirmation. You told me you had seen the story in Alkire's own hand. Where can that Alkire story be found? From what you have written above, are you saying you didn't believe the story you gave to Dr. Glover and Helen Corbin? Did you tell them you didn't believe it was true?

Thank you in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

coazon de oro,

The "pallet" reference is again being blown out of all proportions.

Webster's dictionary defines pallet as a straw-filled tick or mattress, a small hard bed or any temporary bed.

There is not now nor was there ever a minimum or maximum height for a "pallet", it could lay flat on the floor or be three feet in the air.

I have to say the term "pallet" as used in the context of the LDM account is being confused with a modern day loading pallet that a manufacturer might use.

Sometimes people want things to be a certain way, or not, to prove they are right and more importantly that others are wrong.
This becomes an obsession with some people.
They will go to any length to try and force their point even to the point of taking what was said completely out of it's proper context, assigning their own special definition to it so it seems to prove their agenda.

None of this is any good for an objective view of things that happened 125 years ago.

As I said in a previous post, I never believed the stories as written in the Allen, TE Glover and Helen Corbin's books concerning Waltz's last night.
But I do believe certain parts of those stories.

Best to you,

Matthew

Matthew and Lynda,

What you should be looking for is not a modern day pallet. You should look for a sleeping pallet. The first thing that should come up in your search engine is this:

"You may have read in historical novels or history books about some character or figure who slept on a pallet. What is a sleeping pallet? Today, the term refers to a platform, manufactured from wood, plastic, metal or paper, used to transport goods from one place to another with the use of a pallet jack or forklift. This device provides a stable flat surface for stacking any item that needs to be moved. The sleeping pallet refers to a thin mattress or bed of hay, grass or straw that was covered with a linen or cloth. The sleeping pallet was placed on the floor, not on a structure or frame. This uncomfortable sleeping arrangement was meant for servants or those of a lower economic station. The servant put their sleeping pallet to the side or foot of their master’s bed so they could attend to any needs during the night. The sleeping pallet was commonly used in Medieval Europe. During the Colonial Era up until the Civil War in America, slaves were often provided no more than a sleeping pallet in their quarters. Today, most of us sleep on mattresses, whether inner spring, foam or futon style. If you have ever visited a historical site such as Williamsburg in Virginia, try to imagine how life must have been if you were a slave or poor and only had a straw mattress and thin blanket to sleep on after a hard day of manual labor."


You have to go back to the era that was being written about and take their meaning as to what a sleeping pallet was.

There are people who would not realize what a sleeping pallet is. I would guess they would not be well read, which would explain their not having a clue. That being said, that would also not prevent them from telling us what they think it is, even providing a picture as some kind of proof.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Matthew,

Did you believe the story that you saw, written in Frank Alkire's own hand, or the story his children repeated to you? Were they the same story? You have also stated that your aunt was told the same basic story. Did she tell you that directly or did you read it in her historical writings? If her story was not the same, how was it different than the others?

I have always tried to get to the truth of this story. Originally, I asked you for confirmation. You told me you had seen the story in Alkire's own hand. Where can that Alkire story be found? From what you have written above, are you saying you didn't believe the story you gave to Dr. Glover and Helen Corbin? Did you tell them you didn't believe it was true?

Thank you in advance,

Joe Ribaudo

No I never believed the story Alma Alkire told me / showed me but I did believe certain parts of it. I'm fairly sure Alma didn't believed it completely either as it was told as a story, not a historical documentary.
Other than that I don't know what you are talking about.

You never asked me for any confirmation of anything.

I did not give the "story" to TE Glover or Helen Corbin to be published. And I never told either of them that I believed the story 100%. What they did they did on their own without my knowledge, permission and against my wishes.

 

[Old]

Just to beat the proverbial dead horse......
Joe, thank you. Exactly what I tried to explain (obviously not too well). However (evil grin); I dunno known about your writer's example talking about discomfort? If I made you a pallet bed with a down feather base and pillow with an Irish weave blanket my bet says you'd go home and throw out your Posturpedic. Its pretty comfy. Just saying.............

 

[EarnieP]

And to beat that poor horse one more time, there is this concerning the pallet bed:
based on the French word for straw, paille, the palliasse mattress;

(Click on this story.)

Straw mattresses, chaff beds, palliasses, ticks stuffed with leaves

 

[cactusjumper]

Gentlemen,

I do not follow the treasurenet.com/forum with any regularity. We have a great deal on our plates these days – executors of a will, finishing my last book on the Dutchman (this one draws to a close the trilogy), still moving into our home, landscaping, etc., etc. However, this evening I tuned in to the Two Soldiers thread from my iPad while watching a rerun of the Dick Van Dick Show.

I was taken back by the following in a recent post:

“As I said previously, I do not believe the RJ Allen story as it is written. And I never believed the account as it appears in the TE Glover book, Golden Dreams. Nor do I believe the accounts as written in the H. Corbin book, Bible on Jacob Waltz and the LDM. But I do believe there are some bits and pieces of those accounts which are true.”

The source for the Alkire account which I put in my book “Golden Dreams” came from a (once) trusted source. It hurts now that that very source apparently disavows their involvement and turns on a person who trusted them.

It is my understanding that Helen Corbin’s source was the same as mine. I will have to check her collection — notes and documentation (emails, letters, etc.).

We are all vulnerable to our sources. All I can proffer is be cautious. Use primary data if available. And realize that even when a source is trying to be truthful there can be pitfalls.

And don’t despair, the truth is out there.

Happy hunting to all, and to all good fortune and good health!

T. E. Glover

PS: RE: Allen’s book one might want to check out Doug Stewart’s website devoted to the literature for this genre.

I don't have to wonder who Dr. Glover's source was for the Alkire story. While I never met Helen Corbin, I do admire her other works. Bob is a good friend and has told me the source for her Alkire story.

Many of the people on this site know the truth as well as the fictions we have all been told.

In truth, it's very sad.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[cactusjumper]

No I never believed the story Alma Alkire told me / showed me but I did believe certain parts of it. I'm fairly sure Alma didn't believed it completely either as it was told as a story, not a historical documentary.
Other than that I don't know what you are talking about.

You never asked me for any confirmation of anything.

I did not give the "story" to TE Glover or Helen Corbin to be published. And I never told either of them that I believed the story 100%. What they did they did on their own without my knowledge, permission and against my wishes.

Matthew,

I asked if you had ever seen the story, written in Frank Alkire's own handwriting. You answered/confirmed that you had seen such evidence and where you thought you had seen it. Are you now denying that exchange ever took place?

As I said, it's very sad.

Good luck,

Joe Ribaudo

 

[coazon de oro]

Howdy Matthew,

Thanks for the kind words from your other post, and thanks for your explanation of pallets. I was well aware what a sleeping pallet was, and know that a cot is also called a pallet, but since Old just stated "pallet", I was showing her what an old pallet looked like. I also agree that a sleeping pallet can be placed anywhere, even on top of a table for that matter. It all depends on what crawls on the floor at night.

Amiga Lynda,

It would help if you pick just one story at a time. One story says Waltz was on a cot in the parlor or front room of Julia's house. On Robert Allen's it states Waltz was lying sick-unto-death on a makeshift pallet in the living room of Julia's house. I know they basicly say the same thing. However this is right after he was rescued form the flood, and after he had already been taken to the doctor. He was placed there because all the bedrooms were full. Many people had been left without a home. He rallied and hung in for many months, so surely by October he didn't have to sleep on a pallet anymore. Many who are not well read confuse his first sleeping accomodations as being his death bed.

Julia Thomas herself accused Holmes of taking the candle box from under Waltz's bed, not from anywhere else.

Homar

 

[Old]

Amigo Homar,

I thought I made it abundantly evident I was referring to the supposed account given by Rhiney to Bertie Roberts. Go back and read my post, I drew you specifically to that account. Isn't that focusing on one particular story as you request?

There are other pesky problems with this account, but narrowly focused on the sleeping arrangements, this passage says (paraphrasing) Waltz had been moved from a bed in Julia's house to the bakery store room where he had a pallet for a bed, a chair and some shelving. This would have been (by this account) his final stop. There is no confusion there as to first location vs. last location.

Using THIS account you now have to reconcile the traditional location of the candle box.

I ask you again. If you accept this account, in its totality, are you willing to let go of the candle box being located under the bed?