The Two Soldiers

[azdave35]

Hermano,

No reason is needed, if he lied, and did write it, he could only get the story from his father. If he is telling the truth, that he did not write it, his father did. If one follows the directions, and clues, and finds the LDM, does it matter if he lied? Dick Holmes did find the body with the chain at Hidden Water.

Homar

did you find proof that dick actually found the body at hidden water?

 

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[Hal Croves]

Hermano,

No reason is needed, if he lied, and did write it, he could only get the story from his father. If he is telling the truth, that he did not write it, his father did. If one follows the directions, and clues, and finds the LDM, does it matter if he lied? Dick Holmes did find the body with the chain at Hidden Water.

Homar

As far as I know, after all these years of following directions and clues, no one has yet located the LDM and, Dick finding a body at Hidden Water is Brownies story, correct?


Three newspaper articles and Brownie himself corroborate parts of Barks letter. Is there anything, other than his own words, that would support Brownies story?

Dick appears to have been well liked, even respected by the retailers in Phoenix, Tempe and, Mesa. Socially, he and Ida mixed with other country club members, republicans, and I think that both were involved in benevolent societies (Dick, I think was a Freemason... Ida's father certainly was).

Is there anything to support the idea of Dick being a liar?

Hal

 

[Hal Croves]

The news paper article was titled 40 Years ago Today and information came from the collection at the Superstition Mountain Historical Society Archives. There was no mention of destination other than California via Hewitt Station and that the Dutchman was known to the station employees there. It also stated that the best samples were taken off at Casa Grande. The last shipment made the Dutchman hopped on the stage leaving his animals and gear never to be seen again by the employees at Hewitt Station. No name except a Dutchman was given in the article.
Was it JW? who knows unless those shipment records can be tracked down in California. Who was the payee? unknown at this time.
Did JW have debts to pay in California where he started his gold search? Did he have a partner out there who handled the transactions?
Records may be in California that can lead to a trail back to this article. What was the route between Casa Grande and California?
Was it the stage route that leads through Anza Borrego Canyon?
How much money did Waltz spend defending himself from eviction from the land he had claimed? For those that do not know the land he claimed was actually land set aside for the school district prior to his filing homestead.
Hal your mind is made up that Brownie could not help himself and everything he said was a lie. that is up to you to make that decision. Read the interviews and who conducted them. Maybe why people on here that you all know and hold in high regard, who were involved in the interviews do not talk of the book because of controversy.
attached photo evidence is enough for me to believe the deathbed story in the interviews.

My mind is still open which is why I keep asking for anything that would support Brownies tale.
Other than Brownies own words.
Unfortunately, a caption-less, blurry photograph doesn't add much.

Brownies tale is an amalgamation of stories and legends.
Which, may explain why he turned his back on it.

 

[azdave35]

My mind is still open which is why I keep asking for anything that would support Brownies tale.
Other than Brownies own words.
Unfortunately, a caption-less, blurry photograph doesn't add much.

Brownies tale is an amalgamation of stories and legends.
Which, may be why he turned his back on it.

the only reason i put any stock in brownie is because clay worst vouches for him....clay has always been straight with everyone around here and is very well liked..the dealings i have had with clay were all very good experiences.....as far as brownie...i never met him so i cant call him a liar..i just don't think brownie knew anything of value

 

[EarnieP]

"attached photo evidence is enough for me to believe the deathbed story in the interviews."

Could you elaborate on the photo, thanks.

 

[Hal Croves]

azdave,

I have never read a negative word about Clay.
But, even Clay will have to reconcile the fact that Dick could not possibly have been with Waltz that morning.
Dick either lied to his son Brownie or, Brownie lied to everyone... including Clay.
It is that simple.

Clay said that he believed Dick to be an honest man.. other accounts, some published in Dick's lifetime, confirm this.

 

[azdave35]

azdave,

I have never read a negative word about Clay.
But, even Clay will have to reconcile the fact that Dick could not possibly have been with Waltz that morning.
Dick either lied to his son Brownie or, Brownie lied to everyone... including Clay.
It is that simple.

Clay said that he believed Dick to be an honest man.. other accounts, some published in Dick's lifetime, confirm this.

hal...i doubt if we will ever really know for sure who was with waltz in his last hours..even if we did we will never know for sure what he told them....obviously if he told holmes anything it was bogus info because neither holmes ever found anything....the holmes clan searched the entire range and came up empty handed....if you are able..show up at the rendezvous this year and talk to clay yourself

 

[audigger53]

Ok does anyone have the time line of when Waltz and Wiesner went out and Wiesner died. Also a time line on Waggoner and Waltzr? Those 2 throw a monkey wrench about the gold shipped out. When did Waltz start talking about his "mine". Dates so we can put together a real time line of when and what happened where.

 

[azdave35]

Ok does anyone have the time line of when Waltz and Wiesner went out and Wiesner died. Also a time line on Waggoner and Waltzr? Those 2 throw a monkey wrench about the gold shipped out. When did Waltz start talking about his "mine". Dates so we can put together a real time line of when and what happened where.

everything i heard puts waggoner in 1894....my neighbors mining partner said he was a decendant of waggoner...he looked for waggoners gold for years and never found it

 

[cactusjumper]

the only reason i put any stock in brownie is because clay worst vouches for him....clay has always been straight with everyone around here and is very well liked..the dealings i have had with clay were all very good experiences.....as far as brownie...i never met him so i cant call him a liar..i just don't think brownie knew anything of value

Dave,

I have to agree with what you have written about Clay. On the other hand, It's possible he was wrong about Brownie. Many of us have trusted the wrong "friends". Some, despite solid evidence to the contrary, still do.

Take care,

Joe

 

[azdave35]

Dave,

I have to agree with what you have written about Clay. On the other hand, It's possible he was wrong about Brownie. Many of us have trusted the wrong "friends". Some, despite solid evidence to the contrary, still do.

Take care,

Joe

joe...i have also been hornswagled by people i trusted ..more than once...but clay hung with brownie for 20 years..that is plenty of time to find out if a man is a crap weasel or not....like i said though..i'm not defending brownie...i never met him so i cant judge him......i just dont think brownie knew anything...i've said this before..he only had one solid clue to the ldm...a certain rock formation..he looked for it all his life and never found it..i'm pretty sure brownie or his dad got that clue from rhiney when rhiney was drinking....

 

[sailaway]

Reason for the photo is that is my find and I feel it is directly related to description of area by Jacob Waltz. Reason it is blurry is it is cropped from a much larger photo. Seems no one looks close at pics so did some crops of the big one. In the deathbed confession told by Brownie, J.W. said he had to go past what looked like a mans head where he got off the trail at the mine so he picked the eye out. look to the right side of picture, is that a mine entrance? look in the beard is that gold? Look at the heart in center of crack to right of face and what do you see? look across the canyon and you will see the formations that are described as circles within circles. In order to get where the photo was taken the only visible landmark besides the mountain is four rocks that rise above the brush. The photo was taken while standing on the four rocks. (red circle)



Full size below and crop, Zoom in on face across the canyon and you will see in black where the tears come out of eye Norte and South survey markers. That means it was Spanish not Indian marks. Does the IHS prove it was Jesuits?

 

[Hal Croves]

Reason for the photo is that is my find and I feel it is directly related to description of area by Jacob Waltz. Reason it is blurry is it is cropped from a much larger photo. Seems no one looks close at pics so did some crops of the big one. In the deathbed confession told by Brownie, J.W. said he had to go past what looked like a mans head where he got off the trail at the mine so he picked the eye out. look to the right side of picture, is that a mine entrance? look in the beard is that gold? Look at the heart in center of crack to right of face and what do you see? look across the canyon and you will see the formations that are described as circles within circles. to det to where the photo was taken the only visable landmark besides the mountain is four rocks the rise above the brush. the photo was taken while standing on the four rocks,
full size photo and crop of head

I am not seeing the things that you describe but, the photograph is still impressive.

 

[azdave35]

Reason for the photo is that is my find and I feel it is directly related to description of area by Jacob Waltz. Reason it is blurry is it is cropped from a much larger photo. Seems no one looks close at pics so did some crops of the big one. In the deathbed confession told by Brownie, J.W. said he had to go past what looked like a mans head where he got off the trail at the mine so he picked the eye out. look to the right side of picture, is that a mine entrance? look in the beard is that gold? Look at the heart in center of crack to right of face and what do you see? look across the canyon and you will see the formations that are described as circles within circles. In order to get where the photo was taken the only visible landmark besides the mountain is four rocks that rise above the brush. The photo was taken while standing on the four rocks. (red circle)

View attachment 1356044

Full size below and crop, Zoom in on face across the canyon and you will see in black where the tears come out of eye Norte and South survey markers. That means it was Spanish not Indian marks. Does the IHS prove it was Jesuits?
View attachment 1356056

there seems to be a misunderstanding about the clue brownie had....over the years words get twisted around....brownie was not looking for a rock in the shape of a mans head....he was looking for a rock formation that looked like a man

 

[nobodie]

Standing in the bushes.

 

[sailaway]

Was the man standing in the bushes a twist that Brownie believed or was that exactly what his dad said? We have no way of knowing how much of the story was embellished by Brownie as we already know according to Hal that he stretched the truth. Yet here we have a photo of the face of a man with an eye picked out. However directly under the face is a thick with bushes, they are out of view from the angle shown but from other direction they are seen as it is steep. if you look you can see the tops of the trees

 

[Matthew Roberts]

Coazon de oro,

Somewhere in this thread someone wrote the following (paraphrasing) ;

"While Brownie Holmes denied writing the Holmes manuscript, TE Glover has demonstrated that this is not true."


I was under the impression Brownie was taped as saying Charles Kenison wrote the manuscript.
I don't know what other evidence there is to either confirm or deny that statement. Was TE Glover's demonstration posted here or somewhere else ?
I must have missed it.

Thanks,

Matthew

 

[azdave35]

Was the man standing in the bushes a twist that Brownie believed or was that exactly what his dad said? We have no way of knowing how much of the story was embellished by Brownie as we already know according to Hal that he stretched the truth. Yet here we have a photo of the face of a man with an eye picked out.

brownie didnt get the clue from his dad or the dutchman.....it came from herman petrash....herman got it from rhiney...rhiney got it from waltz

 

[coazon de oro]

Coazon de oro,

Somewhere in this thread someone wrote the following (paraphrasing) ;

"While Brownie Holmes denied writing the Holmes manuscript, TE Glover has demonstrated that this is not true."


I was under the impression Brownie was taped as saying Charles Kenison wrote the manuscript.
I don't know what other evidence there is to either confirm or deny that statement. Was TE Glover's demonstration posted here or somewhere else ?
I must have missed it.

Thanks,

Matthew

Howdy Matthew,

Had a fun day yesterday grilling, and celebrating with family, and freinds that I haven't addressed any inquires that have come my way. I don't believe I have to answer any posts in the order they come so I will start with yours, and hope I don't offend anyone.

I too have only heard that Charles Kenison wrote it, but that they were Brownie's words. I have not read TE Glover's new book,( or his others for that matter) so I am not aware if he has any evidence to the contrary. I will tell you that from what I have found, which I can not make public, It would be impossible for anyone to write the Holmes Manuscript without having being by Waltz's deathbed. So if this new evidence finds the Holmes Manuscript as being false, I can guarantee it is based on assumtion.

This is why I have always said that Helen Corbin's, and TE Glover's books are the best books out there, and I know you deserve some of the credit. I know that some of that knowledge you shared was not first hand, but came in good faith. Problem is, there is always someone trying to kill the messenger.

As you, and our good freind Marius point out, many of these stories could have been dismantled when participants were still living. It is in this day and age when everyone has a computer, that we have people butchering time tested stories with assumtions, and lack of informaiton, expecting to find records of everything. Other stories are butchered simply because they can't understand what was recorded. The PSM's for example, being fully aware that Tom K., and B. Corbin (just to name a few) believed they were fake, I offered to prove them otherwise, but never got a response.

Hope to meet you some day Matthew, and do hope you get to uncover the mine. I may quit posting again after today.

Homar

 

[coazon de oro]

Was the man standing in the bushes a twist that Brownie believed or was that exactly what his dad said? We have no way of knowing how much of the story was embellished by Brownie as we already know according to Hal that he stretched the truth. Yet here we have a photo of the face of a man with an eye picked out. However directly under the face is a thick with bushes, they are out of view from the angle shown but from other direction they are seen as it is steep. if you look you can see the tops of the trees

Howdy sailaway,

An infra-red image of the rock that looks like a man should reveal if it is the correct one. The pick work should show up in the areas he claimed to enhance.

Homar