Todays River Finds!(Update on contact period Native American Copper Pendant)

[timekiller]

Well it was along weekend for me.My Grandfather past away this past Friday morning at the age of 89.And seems how he had a big hand in raising me from about 5 up well in to my teen years I'll miss him.He was a WWII Navy Veteran and ecaped death from that as he was on a ship in pearl harbor that was asked to pull out to sea to make room for another just before the bombing of peal harbor.Once out the Navy he worked as a Bridge Tender until he was able to retire.He got me started early in farming and water work.As those were some of the things he loved to do.Two things I've done since for most of my life.
Today I needed some alone time and Mding down the river was a good way to do it out on the water miles away from anyone.The finds were Ok but being able to gather myself back up was the real treasure.
Take Care,
Pete,

Pendant Info At Bottom

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Todays River Finds!

I am glad you got to get out and gather your thoughts ! Sorry for your loss ! Yet someone always gains when someone else loses something ! Like the finds you gained today ! MaineRelic

Thanks MaineRelic!


I did want to ask if anyone had a clue on this piece with the hole in it.I found it in the same area as these buttons.But all were mixed in with indian artifacts as they were in a indian shell bed with scores of indian pottery and pipe peices.It was about another 3" deeper then the buttons and came out looking just as shiny as it does in the pick I've done nothing to it.It reads 3 ferous & 27-28 conductivty.
Thanks.

If it came out looking that way, considering the hole, it's probably gold. Looks like it was worn as a pendant does it seem relatively heavy?

 

[CMDiamonddawg]

Re: Todays River Finds!

Nice hunt and fines Pete , SORRY to read about your Grand Pop . Prayers go out to You and your Family CMD Mike

 

[timekiller]

Re: Todays River Finds!

I am glad you got to get out and gather your thoughts ! Sorry for your loss ! Yet someone always gains when someone else loses something ! Like the finds you gained today ! MaineRelic

Thanks MaineRelic!


I did want to ask if anyone had a clue on this piece with the hole in it.I found it in the same area as these buttons.But all were mixed in with indian artifacts as they were in a indian shell bed with scores of indian pottery and pipe peices.It was about another 3" deeper then the buttons and came out looking just as shiny as it does in the pick I've done nothing to it.It reads 3 ferous & 27-28 conductivty.
Thanks.

If it came out looking that way, considering the hole, it's probably gold. Looks like it was worn as a pendant does it seem relatively heavy?

Hey Buddy,
It does have some weight.But I took the wifes wedding band & ring and waved it under the coil just to see their 14k.And gives a much different reading.This reads more like silver would in my opinion. I do think it's quite old and may be something the indians wore. I've found beads & amulets & sorts here on the coast but this would be the first metal object that would have been found if so.
Hope all's well with ya, I know your ready to get back digging yourself.
Take Care over there,
Pete,

 

[umrgolf]

Re: Todays River Finds!

I am glad you got to get out and gather your thoughts ! Sorry for your loss ! Yet someone always gains when someone else loses something ! Like the finds you gained today ! MaineRelic

Thanks MaineRelic!


I did want to ask if anyone had a clue on this piece with the hole in it.I found it in the same area as these buttons.But all were mixed in with indian artifacts as they were in a indian shell bed with scores of indian pottery and pipe peices.It was about another 3" deeper then the buttons and came out looking just as shiny as it does in the pick I've done nothing to it.It reads 3 ferous & 27-28 conductivty.
Thanks.

If it came out looking that way, considering the hole, it's probably gold. Looks like it was worn as a pendant does it seem relatively heavy?

Hey Buddy,
It does have some weight.But I took the wifes wedding band & ring and waved it under the coil just to see their 14k.And gives a much different reading.This reads more like silver would in my opinion. I do think it's quite old and may be something the indians wore. I've found beads & amulets & sorts here on the coast but this would be the first metal object that would have been found if so.
Hope all's well with ya, I know your ready to get back digging yourself.
Take Care over there,
Pete,

ok, so just water-polished copper then maybe? if you were finding indian stuff around it, who knows maybe post it in the indian forum.. bet they'll know! yep, i've only been gone a week and im ready to dig

 

[Pudsbrat]

Re: Todays River Finds!

Sorry to hear about your grandpa....lost my grandpa back in 1981 and just lost my grandma(his wife) on December 11th......spent lots of time with the both of them....summers out of school and every weekend I could.....learned alot from them both.....hard to believe they are gone......time will lessen the pain some but remember and keep them in your heart......he will always be with you helping you when you need him......praying for you and your family

 

[NOLA_Ken]

Re: Todays River Finds!

Sorry to hear about your loss. I lost my grandfather 6 years ago, he taught me a lot, everything from hunting and fishing to being able to fix just about anything, and most important......treasure hunting. I'm just proud to have known him, and it sounds like you feel the same about yours.

 

[timekiller]

Re: Todays River Finds!

Sorry to hear about your loss. I lost my grandfather 6 years ago, he taught me a lot, everything from hunting and fishing to being able to fix just about anything, and most important......treasure hunting. I'm just proud to have known him, and it sounds like you feel the same about yours.

Sorry to hear about your grandpa....lost my grandpa back in 1981 and just lost my grandma(his wife) on December 11th......spent lots of time with the both of them....summers out of school and every weekend I could.....learned alot from them both.....hard to believe they are gone......time will lessen the pain some but remember and keep them in your heart......he will always be with you helping you when you need him......praying for you and your family

Nice hunt and fines Pete , SORRY to read about your Grand Pop . Prayers go out to You and your Family CMD Mike

Thanks,
It's always amazing the flood of memories & times spent when a loved one passes.
Take Care All
&
your families as well.
Pete,

 

[timekiller]

Re: Todays River Finds!(Update on contact pieriod Native American Copper Pendant)

Folks I found this piece back in Febuary & when I did I had a feeling that it might be indian related.Since then I looked & search on & off from time to time trying to find info on such items.Well just recently I've found the silver bullet pursay on it. I had a gut feeling about it all along & now am convinced about the piece.From reliable sources & seems to be quite a rare find.As only three others of this type have been found from my research. And my piece is in great shape compared to the others which came from Va. dug from graves.To me it's has turned out to be another great find along the way of MD'ing & following up with research.The type of soil/mud & the make up of the metal content in it has came together to preserve it quite well as if you read the links below you'll see they were made of a mix of metals but called copper sheet.Anyway I've wrote to Buck Woodard to get more insight.When & if he get's back with me I'll add his words.
Take Care,
Pete,
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/jame1/moretti-langholtz/appendixa1.htm
http://www.virtualjamestown.org/paspahegh/copper.html
http://www.vacadsci.org/vjsArchives/v47/47-1/p9.pdf
http://www.preservationvirginia.org/rediscovery/page.php?page_id=230
http://www.wm.edu/as/anthropology/graduate/studentdirectory/woodard_b.php


Copper Pendants
Virginia Department of Historic Resources, Richmond, Virginia
Late Woodland / Contact Period, 44VB7 (Great Neck Site)

Native copper was a prized commodity of the Tidewater region during the Late Woodland period. These examples of copper pendants come from a coastal village where controlled trade was important to the exchange of resources denoting cultural status.

 

[birdman]

Re: Todays River Finds!(Update on contact pieriod Native American Copper Pendant)

Hey brother ,sorry for your loss . The WW2 generation are disappearing fast. They are a different breed then people of today and are the greatest generation for sure.
I used to have a neighbor that was at Pearl Harbor and saw the Jap planes coming in. We stopped getting Christmas cards from him a few years ago..

 

[timekiller]

Re: Todays River Finds!(Update on contact pieriod Native American Copper Pendant)

Hey brother ,sorry for your loss . The WW2 generation are disappearing fast. They are a different breed then people of today and are the greatest generation for sure.
I used to have a neighbor that was at Pearl Harbor and saw the Jap planes coming in. We stopped getting Christmas cards from him a few years ago..

Thanks Man,
RIP Granddad.

 

[High Plains Digger]

Re: Todays River Finds!(Update on contact pieriod Native American Copper Pendant)

A memorial treasure hunt. Definitely the way to do it. I would have it no other way.

Odds are the copper came from Michigan's Upper Peninsula where it could be found as nuggets. Of various sizes. 99.9% pure, and it's natural state was the yardstick for any other copper. It was traded heavily, so it is not too surprising to find it there.

Woodland buffalo (or bison for those so inclined) were very numerous at one time, even into New York City (eaten frequently with the local salsa). They were somewhat smaller than their Great Plains cousins.

 

[SC Keith]

Re: Todays River Finds!(Update on contact pieriod Native American Copper Pendant)

Awesome pewter buttons, look like water finds, well preserved! Sorry about the loss of your grandfather Pete. Love those water finds--keep 'em coming!
Keith

 

[timekiller]

Well folks I've not heard back from "Buck". But did find another person that has found & deals with copperculture artifacts.He was a good person to speak (type) with & learn from about such items & has found many items around Wisconsin & Michigan as you can see from his web site below.I'm still not sure how rare such a find here on the coast of N.C. is as there is no mention of none found any closer then Va..But know myself that a combined total of 80yrs. looking for indian artifacts between me & my dad have never came up with none.So I'm happy to have found this piece.It seems that some of my other pieces may be also after sending pics. to Dave.It would make sense as they came from same types of sites.Not many just, a copper rolled bead could be.Some of the lead items I've been finding he feels could be around contact period.Anyway heres his E-mail after asking if it was Ok to post it here.
His web site & finds he's made
http://copperculture.homestead.com/

Yes, I have found 6 different shaped Copper Culture period "pendants" in Wisconsin and Michigan, along with bracelets (3), beads (32) and rings (20 decorative, not to be worn on a finger). Decorative copper items from this period are rare in comparison to the other items such as copper awls and perforators of which I have found more than 500. As you can tell from my website there is a wide variety of copper artifacts to be found, I am now over 3000
artifacts and still looking.

It is not outside the realm of possibilities that your copper piece originated in Michigan or Wisconsin. However, there is no way of knowing that without an analysis of the copper. Your piece was obviously in an acidic environment judging by the degree of corrosion. Did you clean it other than washing it off? It appears to have been chemically cleaned.

Dave

Thanks Much to ya Dave.

LOOK AT YOUR FINDS CLOSE GUY'S YOU NEVER KNOW.

Take Care,
Pete,

 

[Woodland Detectors]

Sorry for your loss Pete. Hang in there buddy

 

[scaupus]

Awesome finds, all of them, but particularly the pendant of course. Coincidence you found it at this particular time? Maybe, maybe not. I'd just suggest you document when and where exactly it was found and keep that paper with it. If you have a local museum, you might think of donating it, with attribution to you, and maybe a mention of your grandfather as a tribute. That's assuming it was legal for you to remove it from the river. Here in Florida, it's not, I understand, except in an authorized archaeological dig.

 

[timekiller]

Awesome finds, all of them, but particularly the pendant of course. Coincidence you found it at this particular time? Maybe, maybe not. I'd just suggest you document when and where exactly it was found and keep that paper with it. If you have a local museum, you might think of donating it, with attribution to you, and maybe a mention of your grandfather as a tribute. That's assuming it was legal for you to remove it from the river. Here in Florida, it's not, I understand, except in an authorized archaeological dig.

It was not found on state land. It was private owned land/beach. But the funny thing about your statement or not so funny is one must never doubt what state or federal law/people can do if it was to come down to many finds that get found & posted on this site.Just the way it is & something that must be considered everytime one post something.Believe me if they want something one has found they could get it.And why not they get everything else anyway.Right
Take Care,
Pete,

 

[scaupus]

Awesome finds, all of them, but particularly the pendant of course. Coincidence you found it at this particular time? Maybe, maybe not. I'd just suggest you document when and where exactly it was found and keep that paper with it. If you have a local museum, you might think of donating it, with attribution to you, and maybe a mention of your grandfather as a tribute. That's assuming it was legal for you to remove it from the river. Here in Florida, it's not, I understand, except in an authorized archaeological dig.

It was not found on state land. It was private owned land/beach. But the funny thing about your statement or not so funny is one must never doubt what state or federal law/people can do if it was to come down to many finds that get found & posted on this site.Just the way it is & something that must be considered everytime one post something.Believe me if they want something one has found they could get it.And why not they get everything else anyway.Right
Take Care,
Pete,

hey Pete,
Sadly, in Florida, I believe that relics even from private riverine property belong to the state if the item is found in the river - I'm not sure exactly how they define the boundaries of the river in the case where there is a shallow floodplain that is underwater part of the time. My understanding is that any navigable water belongs to the state, and anything in the river is protected. Florida river collectors, primarily of fossils and Indian tools and relics, assuming there are still active collectors in Florida, are necessarily "underground," I would guess. I recollect an old bulletin board type website for Florida fossil and paleo-Indian relic collectors that you can still access, but it's last post was several years old when I last checked.

 

[steelheadwill]

Great eye on you Pete
A historic save. Congrats

 

[MICHIGANJAY]

I must say, that is definitely one cool artifact. It looks great! My thoughts are with you. J.

 

[timekiller]

Folks I found this piece back in Febuary & when I did I had a feeling that it might be indian related.Since then I looked & search on & off from time to time trying to find info on such items.Well just recently I've found the silver bullet pursay on it. I had a gut feeling about it all along & now am convinced about the piece.From reliable sources & seems to be quite a rare find.As only three others of this type have been found from my research. And my piece is in great shape compared to the others which came from Va. dug from graves.To me it's has turned out to be another great find along the way of MD'ing & following up with research.The type of soil/mud & the make up of the metal content in it has came together to preserve it quite well as if you read the links below you'll see they were made of a mix of metals but called copper sheet.Anyway I've wrote to Buck Woodard to get more insight.When & if he get's back with me I'll add his words.
Take Care,
Pete,
http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/jame1/moretti-langholtz/appendixa1.htm
http://www.virtualjamestown.org/paspahegh/copper.html
http://www.vacadsci.org/vjsArchives/v47/47-1/p9.pdf
http://www.preservationvirginia.org/rediscovery/page.php?page_id=230
http://www.wm.edu/as/anthropology/graduate/studentdirectory/woodard_b.php


Copper Pendants
Virginia Department of Historic Resources, Richmond, Virginia
Late Woodland / Contact Period, 44VB7 (Great Neck Site)

Native copper was a prized commodity of the Tidewater region during the Late Woodland period. These examples of copper pendants come from a coastal village where controlled trade was important to the exchange of resources denoting cultural status.

Buck's background,

Buck Woodard
Email:: bwwood@wm.edu
Year entered:: 2005
Degree sought:: PhD
Research interests:: Cosmology, ethnohistory, historical linguistics, kinship and marriage, political economy



Background

Buck Woodard holds a MA in Anthropology (2008) from the College of William & Mary and a BFA in Ceramics and Metals (1997) from Virginia Commonwealth University. Since 2008, he has directed the Colonial Williamsburg Foundation's American Indian Initiative. Previously, he served as advisor to the Governor of Virginia on the Virginia Council on Indians (2003-2006) and as a commissioner on the Governor's Commission on Community and National Service (2004). Past projects include contributions to the Muscarelle Museum of Fine Art, the National Park Service, New Line Cinema, NOVA / PBS, the Smithsonian's National Museum of the American Indian and the Virginia Museum of Fine Arts. Mr. Woodard is a Lecturer for the College of William & Mary's Learning Odysseys and an Adjunct Instructor of Anthropology for Virginia Commonwealth University's School of World Studies.


Recent Presentations
2010 Backstory with the American History Guys, Virginia Foundation for the Humanities, Williamsburg, Invited Panelist, Indian Country Virginia: Real & Imagined

2010 Annual Meeting of the American Society for Ethnohistory, Ottawa, Canada, Invited Session Participant, Native Colonialism: the Powhatan Expansion

2010 Public History Conference on Narratives of Native American and African American Histories, North Carolina State University, Raleigh, North Carolina, Invited Key Note Speaker, "African-American and American Indian Voices" Colonial Williamsburg and the Production of Public History

2009 1613 Symposium, Ulster Hall, Belfast, Northern Ireland, Invited Participant, Commemorative Cycles of Heritage and History at Jamestown


2009 Middle Atlantic Archaeology Conference, Ocean City, Maryland, Invited Session Participant, The Chickahominy in Context: A Reassessment of Political Configurations

2009 Annual Conference, Native American and Indigenous Studies, University of Minnesota, Minneapolis, Minnesota, Session Participant, Our Bond of Peace - Colonial Williamsburg's American Indian Initiative, Contemporary Diplomacy, and the Production of Public History

2009 Annual Conference, Southeastern Indian Conference, University of North Carolina, Pembroke, North Carolina, Session Participant, The Special Census of 1808: The Nottoway Indians of Virginia

Recent Publications
(In Press) Civic Engagement and Strategic Essentialism at Werowococomo (with Martin D. Gallivan and Danielle Moretti-Langholtz), in Civic Engagement in Public History and Archaeology, refereed journal / edited volume of the Society for Historical Archaeology, Paul A. Schackel, ed.

(Forthcoming) The Change, Struggle, and Dormancy of the Nottoway Language, in Researching Times Past in the Chesapeake, University of Nebraska Press, Martin D. Gallivan and Margaret Holmes-Williamson, eds.

2010 An Ethnographic View of the Nottoway, 1700-1750, in Dotratung - New Moon, Lynette Allston, ed. Circle and Square Tract Foundation: Capron.

2009 "They will not admitt of any Werowance from him to governe over them" The Chickahominy in Context: A Reassessment of Political Configurations, (with Danielle Moretti-Langholtz), Journal of Mid Atlantic Archaeology, vol. 25

2008 Journal of American History, Vol. 95, No. 4, Book Review (with Danielle Moretti-Langholtz), Lakota Winter Count, Smithsonian Institution, Museum of Natural History and Museum of the American Indian.

2008 The New West Indian Guide, Vol. 81, Book Review, The American Discovery of Europe, Jack D. Forbes. Urbanna: University of Illinois Press, 2007.


Buck reply,
Hi Pete - sorry it has taken me a little while to respond; I don't check this email as often in the summer. Your pendants look very similar to ones recovered from other coastal sites, with the exception they are usually green. Recent research has tried to link the copper sources of excavated finds (American vs. European), for us context is everything. Can you give me a hint as to the location of your items? I would suggest that the colonial materials overlaying the Indian content may be European trade items, depending on the site of course (village, etc.). Some of the copper pendants from Virginia Beach's Chesapeake villages look very much like yours. Buck

Only thing further to add myself would be what causes the items to look the way they do.And what I can say & know from digging is that it has to be the alkaline from the shells decomposing.Not that strange to me to see copper or brass look this way in these areas.I've seen many things from this type of enviroment look this way of copper/brass items.And can even be seen in this post alone with the buttons starting to take on this effect.That's about it & a wrap of this for me just wanted to finish what I started.
Take Care All,
Pete,