Trying to find out what it is

[Badger 5]

Hi All
I found this in North Nevada by old R & R tracks late 1800s to early 1900s Its metal. Looks like a big kids jacks The weight is 2.1 OZ. There does not appear to have any wear like a gear,It is weathered.
I don't know, any thoughts

Thanks Mark

 

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[ivan salis]

its a caltrop --a sort of anti calvary - horse crippler * these were commonly used in the civil war * not quite sure why or how or when it got where it was but that is what it is --

 

[Badger 5]

Ivan Salis
Wow thanks, Never would have thought of that. The tracks come from the Sierra-Nevada Mountains past Pyramid lake and South by old Fort Churchill.That's how they got the lumber to build the fort. Maybe it some how fell of the train. I found it North of Pyramid lake. The Fort was built because of the uprising of the Paiute Indians. There was some big battles with the Indians maybe it had something to do with that.

Well thank You I appreciate it.

Badger5
Mark

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Wow!!!

Really cool find - caltrops are not found very often, I don't think - but that is definitely what it is. And, they hardly ever just put one down - they usually used several - so there may be some more in the area.

Cool! Congrats!!!


Beth

 

[dtpost]

Hi All
I found this in North Nevada by old R & R tracks late 1800s to early 1900s Its metal. Looks like a big kids jacks The weight is 2.1 OZ. There does not appear to have any wear like a gear,It is weathered.
I don't know, any thoughts

Thanks Mark

Looks like a cross angle bolt, that might have rusted off.. They used them to hold the door locking mechanism on

 

[Dano Sverige]

Certainly doesn't look sharp enough to be a caltrop IMO.

 

[Digger54]

Caltrop....gang warily

I agree caltrop. Badly oxidized. Once the oxidation is removed it will likely be about 80% the size pictured now.

My ancestors employed them during the scottish wars, ergo my family motto Gang Warily (step carefully)

 

[creskol]

its a caltrop --a sort of anti calvary - horse crippler * these were commonly used in the civil war * not quite sure why or how or when it got where it was but that is what it is --

I have yet to see any documentation in support of their use during the Civil War. Can you please tell me what references you used to verify this? I sure would appreciate it.

 

[creskol]

Certainly doesn't look sharp enough to be a caltrop IMO.

Looks like a cross angle bolt, that might have rusted off.. They used them to hold the door locking mechanism on

I agree with both assessments. Not a caltrop.

 

[fmerg]

i dont believe it is a caltrop being the point does not stand stright up and all the caltrop i have seen are made with 4 points not six
also is the item magnetic i remember seeing some thing like these used in tumbles to knock of large pieces of slag
when i worked in a machine shop the were magnetic and used in a tumbler

 

[ivan salis]

creskol please see a post made by poptopagain --the 26th of march 2011 * -- he was at a civil war site * when he recovered a differant shaped caltrop* but a caltrop none the less-- along with other civil war items -- many caltrops are sharp and nail like (the 4 point type), but others not (the six point type) six point types are designed to roll a persons ankle or give a horse "stone bruise" type injury if the horse steps on it with the "soft" spot of their hoof - thus crippling the horse -so they can not charge (* run) because its limping / folks with a twisted ankle do not run well either .--- now there are two basic types one is more like twisted nails with a sharp point up ( normally used against massed person charges)--the other larger and more blunt (mostly used as anti calvary )--firm ground was need to use these items for best effect.

U N forces still used the 4 point type caltrops as late as the korean war , against sneaker clad chinese troops -- while a old fashioned and simple weapon * in its role to beak up human wave attacks and horse mounted troop charges and as a "basic" area denial weapon on roads again tire vehiciles -- troops can not go enmass there because of them --when properly used they can be very effective.

note indains were highly horse dependant in warfare * cripple their horse using these "horse cripplers" so it becomes indain on foot vs "mounted" calvary --guess what the outcome is going to be?

 

[NGE]

Is it possible that these things were loaded into a cannon muzzle and fired like shrapnel to repel or kill large attack forces? Hell, it would've put a damper on everything for the attackers.............NGE

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Creskol and Fmerg are correct ...the item is definitely not a Caltrop (also known as a horse-cripplers or crows-feet).

Caution-note: This is a very long post, containing extensive documentation. Readers who get bored easily may wish to skip it, or read only a few paragraphs.

First and foremost... a Caltrop always had only 4 arms/spines - which were arranged in a Tetrahedral pattern, so that no matter how the Caltrop lands one on the ground, one of its sharp-tipped arms/spines would be pointing straight upward, to impale a horse's hoof or a soldier's booted foot. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrop

The 6-armed "not-a-Caltrop" shape is known as a jackstone ...due to its resemblance to the jacks in the children's game "Balls & Jacks."

I've done very extensive research to discover the actual identity of these 6-armed iron "relics," because they are frequently sold on Ebay as being Caltrops. They are actually "tumbler media" from the Metalcasting Industry. (Some others are antique Jackstones, from the children's game.) In the Metalcasting industry, they are known by several names... a tumbler-star/jack-star/mill-star. They are used to clean casting-sand, flashing, and burrs from "raw" cast metal objects. To clean the raw castings, a batch of these "stars" and raw castings were put into a tumbler barrel (sometimes called a tumbler-mill). The barrel was then slowly rotated on its axis, causing its contents to tumble, and the stars would batter the castings, knocking the casting-sand and burrs off the castings. The purpose of the iron star's pointed arms was to reach into the holes, crevices, and inverse-angles of the castings. (Ball-shaped tumbler-media is used for castings which don't have holes, crevices, or inverse-angles.)

Last year, my research turned up an Encyclopedia of Metal-Casting on the internet, with a diagram which showed these 6-armed items as Tumbler Media ...but my computer's hard-drive died, beyond repair or restoration, so I lost the link to that online document.

Unfortunately, it's deep in human nature to very much prefer to believe you've come into possession of a rare & valuable Military Antique ...instead of a low-value modern-era item. So, some people are going to keep on resolutely insisting the item is a Caltrop.

But, readers, please ask yourself, if these items are actually a Caltrop (which needed to be used in large numbers to be effective), why aren't these 6-armed items ever dug in large numbers? Instead, the very few that have been dug are always found only one (or perhaps two) at a time.

Also, if Caltrops were used in the US civil war, why doesn't the term caltrop/caltrops/horse-cripplers/crows-feet get mentioned in any report (or correspondence) in the entire 126-volume set of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies"? If they were used, they'd get mentioned in at least one of the reports (or correspondence) ...right?

Lastly, if these 6-armed items are really a Caltrop, why do we see so many of them in nice clean non-excavated (non-dug) condition for sale on Ebay? (See the attached photos ...one showing tumbler-media with worn-out tips, and one showing fresh, sharper tips.) Which case do you think is more likely -- that they are rare valuable military-antique Caltrops, or surplus 20th-century Tumbler-Media?

Here are many links (and observations) from my research in 2009. (Of course, links to the Ebay auctions are now expired.) Please remember to view the photos at the end of this post.)
---------------------------------
A caltrop can only have its intended effect it is sharp-pointed. Please note
that the tips of these six-armed items are not sharp enough to stab through
shoe-leather, much less a horse's foot.

To be significantly effective, caltrops need to be distributed on the ground "in
quantity" ...so why do relic-diggers find only one caltrop at a spot?

In olden times, caltrops were also called crows-feet.

http://moa.cit.cornell.edu/moa/browse.monographs/waro.html
(SEARCHABLE online complete 125-volume set of "The War of the Rebellion: a
Compilation of the Official Records of the Union and Confederate Armies")

URL for an Ebay seller's statement that he bought "caltrops" among some old
kid's-game Jacks:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...sid=m37&satitle=260188024561&category0=&fvi=1

Item number: 260188024561
Seller: save2barns
End time: Dec 03 2007, 19:13:10 PST
Description:
2 very old antique caltrop caltrops. These 2 were in a lot of jacks I
purchased, the jacks were dated to 80+ yrs old. Each is approximately 1"
from one point to the other. they are a heavy metal cast iron. Look like
they were made from a mold as each has remnants of where they may have been
attached. very minor surface rust on these.. great old items!!

I have found a modern-day statement that the VERY-STUBBY-TIPPED form of these
six-armed items were used at early 20th-century Iron Foundries "to clean/polish
sand from iron castings":
http://www.thetreasuredepot.com/cgi-bin/detecting/detecting_config.pl?noframes;read=84110
(discussion of a dug six-armed iron item - note particularly the reply at:
http://www.thetreasuredepot.com/cgi-bin/detecting/detecting_config.pl?noframes;read=84110
and the digger's photo of two of them at:
http://www.thetreasuredepot.com/cgi-bin/detecting/detecting_config.pl?noframes;read=84111


Caltrop URLs

A caltrop's shape/form is a called a Tetrahedron, so here's the word Tetrahedron
defined, and pictured - and in addition to that picture, the article also
includes a photo of a modern-day Caltrop (to demonstrate their Tetrahedral
shape/form):
http://gwydir.demon.co.uk/jo/solid/tetra.htm

Wikipedia entry on Caltrop, with several photos of actual Caltrops:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caltrop

Because a disbelieving seller says Wikipedia info is unreliable, here's the
modern-day American Heritage Dictionary's definition of a caltrop, describing it
as having FOUR spikes, and how it works:
http://www.bartleby.com/61/34/C0043400.html

An 18th-century Military Dictionary, describing Caltrops as being FOUR iron
spikes in a tetrahedron pattern, 3 to 4 inches tall:
http://footguards.tripod.com/01ABOUT/01_dictionary.htm

Caltrop defined as having 4 spikes at the US Central Intelligence Agency
website:
https://www.cia.gov/about-cia/cia-museum/cia-museum-tour/flash-movie-text.html

Photo of the single caltrop specimen excavated by archeologists at an early
Colonial-period Jamestown VA site:
http://www.thepirateking.com/historical/caltrop.htm

SpanAmWar US Army Corps Badges - see 4th Corps, used because a caltrop always
has just FOUR points:
http://www.spanamwar.com/medalscorpsbadges.htm

Article titled "The Caltrop As Anti-Tank Obstacle" which includes a photo of a
very large World War 2 anti-tank CONCRETE Caltrop obstacle:
http://www.britarch.ac.uk/projects/dob/crom1b.html

Discussion at RomanArmyTalk forum, with photo of ancient caltrop, and also
including the ancient Roman historian Vegetius' description of a caltrop:
http://www.romanarmy.nl/rat/viewtop...=caltrop&sid=4d56a45f3d52521f9fe0532d30d278c4

The (British) National Army Museum website's Definition of caltrops, with a
photo of 16th-century Caltrop in the British National Army Museum collection:
http://www.national-army-museum.ac.uk/exhibitions/shortVisits/animals/page2.shtml

Scanned page in an 1880s dictionary, see its definition of CROWS-FEET/caltrops,
saying four points:
http://books.google.com/books?id=WA...sig=SJ7eOJDxzxn6BL9QvNydTISCJs8#PRA1-PA181,M1

Current Ebay auction for a European Medieval caltrop by a seller in England -
note that he says "The design is such that whichever way a caltrop is thrown
onto the ground and lands, there is always a spike pointing upwards."
http://cgi.ebay.com/SUPERB-MEDIEVAL...ageNameZWD2VQQcmdZViewItem?_trksid=p1638.m122

Current Ebay auction for a Medieval caltrop by a seller in Germany - note that
he says "No matter how you throw it, one of the spikes is always up."
http://cgi.ebay.com/CALTROP-MEDIEVA...ryZ73464QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Current Ebay auction for a Medieval/Roman caltrop - note that the seller says
"No matter how you dropped them, one sharp spike always remained upward."
http://cgi.ebay.com/MEDIEVAL-CALTRO...ryZ37907QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

URLs proving THE EXISTENCE OF IRON JACKSTONE-TOYS IN THE 1800s ERA

An 1875 newspaper report of a child's death from swallowing an IRON JACKSTONE
TOY.
http://njsuttonfamily.org/Newspaper/jan1875.htm

A May 1886 article in "The Medical and Scientific Reporter" about the death of a
young girl who swallowed "an iron Jackstone.":
http://books.google.com/books?id=1B...ts=MGqe35IvVF&sig=WzFFS3l7c9OmWxWQqT0OWN_ep3Q

A 1901 article in The Therapeutic Gazette, about surgically removing "an iron
jackstone" that was swallowed by "a small colored child."
http://books.google.com/books?id=zb...ts=pDo1MLDPKM&sig=SEK491eJN3HvOTXPPHsxtHuRnCU

URLs SHOWING THE "JACKSTONE SHAPE/FORM":

Article showing huge CONCRETE jackstones used for rip-rap at a Lake Dam, with
photos and info:
http://www.nebraskastudies.org/0800...braskastudies.org/0800/stories/0801_0504.html

clipart.com's illustration of a 20th-century jackstone TOY
http://www.clipart.com/en/search/split?q=jackstone&a=i

Photo of an Origami (Japanese paper-folding art) jackstone (4th image on
webpage)
http://ccnuma.anu.edu.au/~wpc/origami/19990526/

Video of making a jackstone by Origami (Japanese paper-folding art)
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.Channel&ChannelID=47691104

 

[creskol]

creskol please see a post made by poptopagain --the 26th of march 2011 * -- he was at a civil war site * when he recovered a differant shaped caltrop* but a caltrop none the less-- along with other civil war items -- many caltrops are sharp and nail like (the 4 point type), but others not (the six point type) six point types are designed to roll a persons ankle or give a horse "stone bruise" type injury if the horse steps on it with the "soft" spot of their hoof - thus crippling the horse -so they can not charge (* run) because its limping / folks with a twisted ankle do not run well either .--- now there are two basic types one is more like twisted nails with a sharp point up ( normally used against massed person charges)--the other larger and more blunt (mostly used as anti calvary )--firm ground was need to use these items for best effect.

U N forces still used the 4 point type caltrops as late as the korean war , against sneaker clad chinese troops -- while a old fashioned and simple weapon * in its role to beak up human wave attacks and horse mounted troop charges and as a "basic" area denial weapon on roads again tire vehiciles -- troops can not go enmass there because of them --when properly used they can be very effective.

note indains were highly horse dependant in warfare * cripple their horse using these "horse cripplers" so it becomes indain on foot vs "mounted" calvary --guess what the outcome is going to be?

I looked at it, and it is definitely not a caltrop.

 

[Badger 5]

Hi Guys
Its is Magnetic and its 7 arms/spines on it. I don't know if that makes any difference.

Thanks for all the info, You guys are great .

Thanks
Badger5

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

It is a caltrop. And, they were also used in the civil war - and it doesn't matter if they are real sharp or not. Many caltrops were made by the
soldiers - so they weren't always "textbook". Anyone who has ever ridden a horse who has stepped on a ROCK, knows the effects of anything
that can go into the frog of the foot. (it also doesn't matter if its 4 point, 6 point, or whatever). Heck, they used anything they could for caltrops,
including, but not limited to - barbed wire. They are not one-of-a-kind molds.

Here is a civil war relic site. #4424 and others.

http://www.thecivilwarlimberchest.com/Military Items page.htm


Beth

 

[creskol]

It is a caltrop. And, they were also used in the civil war - and it doesn't matter if they are real sharp or not. Many caltrops were made by the
soldiers - so they weren't always "textbook". Anyone who has ever ridden a horse who has stepped on a ROCK, knows the effects of anything
that can go into the frog of the foot. (it also doesn't matter if its 4 point, 6 point, or whatever). Heck, they used anything they could for caltrops,
including, but not limited to - barbed wire. They are not one-of-a-kind molds.

Here is a civil war relic site. #4424 and others.

http://www.thecivilwarlimberchest.com/Military Items page.htm

Beth

When you say, "so they weren't always textbook," which textbook are you referring to? I have yet to find any mention of them in any textbook as they relate to the Civil War. Can you site a reference, other than a relic site, that substantiates your theory?

 

[mrs.oroblanco]

Caltrops have been used since the Roman times. They weren't "invented" for the civil war.

Maybe you have heard about them by a different name - they were also called "crows-feet", "horse cripplers", "star nails" and "jack rocks".

http://faganarms.com/civilwarironcaltrop.aspx

The thing is - who said it is Civil War? Just because you find something near - or on - a civil war battle site, doesn't make it civil war.

But, it doesn't mean that it isn't a caltrop.

Beth

http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/civil-war-weapon-anti-cavalry-caltrops

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Badger 5 wrote:
> Its is Magnetic and its 7 arms/spines on it.

The item in your photo appears to have only six arms. Four in a "flat" X (or cross) pattern, plus one emerging from the X's center, and presumably another on the opposite side of the X's center. Please re-count ...or if you still see seven, please post some more photos.

 

[TheCannonballGuy]

Mrs.oroblanco wrote:
> It is a caltrop. And, they were also used in the civil war

Please answer Creskol's request and provide Historical documentation of your claim that Caltrops/horse-cripplers/crows-feet/star-nails/jack-rocks were used in the US civil war. By the way, pointing to a website where a modernday person says the item is a pre-20th-century Caltrop (or other name) is not Historical documentation.

Because Badger 5 found his tumbler-star/mill-star/jack-star in the US, I'm expanding Creskol's request: Please post Historical documentation that Caltrops (or whatever name you prefer) were used within the borders of the US anytime between the American Revolution and the 20th-century Labor Union Workers' use of home-made "jack-nails." (They welded big nails together into a caltrop's Tetrahedral shape - in the 20th-century.)

For the past several years I've done exhaustive research, seeking Historical documentation of the use of Caltrops in America, and have found none at all from 1783 to the 1930s. I'll tip my hat and give you a bow, publicly, for being a better Historical researcher than I am, if you can find Historical documentation proving your claim that I've somehow missed. Until then, I'll stand by the results of my research.

Mrs.oroblanco continued:
> and it doesn't matter if they are real sharp or not. Many caltrops were made by the soldiers - so they weren't always "textbook".

Again, please provide your Historical documentation (a military report, a soldier's diary, a period newspaper-report) that "caltrops were made by soldiers."

As I said in my prior post, if Caltrops/alternative-names were used, there would be a Historical report of it in some document ...such as, "My regiment's advance was delayed when we encountered caltrops which the rebels had strewn on the Knoxville Road." Or... "Captain Smith's horse (or Captain Smith himself) was injured when he stepped on a caltrop/alternative-name laid by the enemy." But despite literally years of research, I've been unable to find any such report. I look forward to seeing the Historical report(s) you are relying on for your claims.

Mrs.oroblanco continued:
> Anyone who has ever ridden a horse who has stepped on a ROCK, knows the effects of anything
> that can go into the frog of the foot. (it also doesn't matter if its 4 point, 6 point, or whatever).

In the course of my years of research, I asked two horse-veterinarians about the result of a horse stepping on on one of these small (1.5-inch or less) 6-or-8-armed "caltrops" ...meaning the kind found by Badger 5. Both vets said the small item would need to be on stone or pavement or very hard ground ...otherwise the horse's great weight would simply push the item into the dirt, with no harm done to the horse.

Mrs.oroblanco continued:
> Heck, they used anything they could for caltrops, including, but not limited to - barbed wire.

There we again come back to the issue of the use of caltrops/alternative-name in the US between the American Revolution and the Labor Union Wars of the 20th-century (when the Union goons used home-made ones made of large nails -- which are not the kind of item dug by Badger 5, though you are insisting his item is a caltrop.

Apparently, you believe that the hundreds of 8-armed and 6-armed items (like Badger found) which have turned up in nice non-dug condition on Ebay are not Tumbler-Media -- but instead are actually valuable collectible antique caltrops which have sat un-used in storage somewhere ever since the end of the American Revolution.

Readers here will have noticed that I keep mentioning the use of Caltrops in the American Revolution (1776-1783). My diligent Historical research turned up only one report of caltrops use in that war. Here's the report: As the British retreated from New York, one of their soldiers was tasked with sowing caltrops in a grassy field. He managed to "paint himself into a corner" and had trouble getting out of that field.

And that report demonstrates why the combatants in every US war or skirmish from 1783 into the 20th-century chose not to use caltrops/crows-feet etc. They are like the land-mines of today. You don't plant them on land you hope to occupy for decades after the combat ...because iron/metal caltrops do not "go away." In later decades they will keep on harming your own people.

That being said... here's more from my years of research. Actual caltrops were used on roads in Europe during World War Two. Here's a diagram from an Army Manual of that era. Note the 4-arms/spines Tetrahedral shape of the caltrop, and also, its size relative to the truck's tire.