Tumlinson Profile

[Hal Croves]

There has been quite a bit written about Travis Tumlinson, but the information is scattered and I would now like to ask for your help in creating a profile of the man. My goal is to have everything that is known about Travis available in one concentrated location. No fact or comment is too small and I hope that readers will share what they have. I am trying to establish a "chain of custody" for the stones and a detailed profile of Travis would go a long way in understanding their origins.

Travis Tumlinson:

 

Amazon Forum Fav 👍

Family Maps of Hinds County, Mississippi, Deluxe Edition - Grab it through Amazon!

[Cubfan64]

Hal - I imagine you've seen and read all this already, but much of what you're looking for exists in the attached link, but you just have to weasel it out of all the documentation.

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.ancestry.com/~gcundiff/LostDutchman/peralta/Peralta.htm

For what it's worth, to me the "chain of custody" from Tumlinson onward isn't nearly as important as the origin of the stones themselves all the way up to when Travis has them, and unfortunately the answer to those questions is incredibly muddled.

 

[EE THr]

I agree with Cub, that the origin of the Stone Maps are more important than what happened to them after their alleged discovery.

There is the story that Travis copied them from a cloth map. But the usefullness of doing that isn't clear.

Then there is the story that Travis' dad stole them from a church in Mexico, and they set up the "discovery" to legitimize their possession of them. That would make some sense, but contradicts the "cloth map original" story.

Unless his dad (or someone) stole the cloth map from the church. Then, to legitimize their knowledge of the trail, they decided to carve the Stones. Their story of legitimacy of possession could then be, "Just because we know the trail, doesn't mean we stole the cloth map. Somebody made these stone versions, too, and that's what was found in the desert." Maybe they figured the church wouldn't want the publicity of accusing them of swiping the map, because the church wasn't supposed to know about the mines. And there would be no use in trying legal action, because there is now physical evidence that the Tumlinsons found their own maps. And maybe the church would believe that they found the Stones, and not go after them for that. And at least public opinion would be on the Tumlinson's side.

And that would be a reason for copying the trail onto stone, because a cloth map wouldn't last, buried in the desert.

To me, that makes more sense than people carrying around stone maps, way back then, and losing or hiding them at the location where they were "found."

Either that, or Travis simply invented them, for other reasons, and there was no cloth map.

 

[cactusjumper]

EE,

I may be wrong but I believe "Azmula" claimed, at one time, that he had documentation to prove that the Stone Maps were stolen from the church in Arizpe. When I asked for sources on some of his "historical facts", I became persona non grata with Azmula and many of his friends on the LDM Forum.

That precipitated years of abuse and being called every name in the book, and a few new ones. Azmula never forgave me for the imagined slight. It was a real eyeopener for me. On the other hand, I still go blindly forward asking for sources on quoted points of history.

I make many quotes from historical documents and books and will usually give the source credit at the time of the quote. If I don't, I never have a problem with making it public when asked.

After all those years of research and walking the Stone Map Trail, I have come to the sad conclusion that the maps were made using existing landmark's, caves and old mines/prospects. I no longer believe they lead to a treasure. It was quite an education......especially concerning the Jesuit connection to such things.

Good luck,

Joe

 

[EE THr]

CJ---

Strange things do happen like that from time-to-time. I imagine there could be many possible reasons why, but the reality of it might never be known. Similar things have happened to me over the years, but not quite that dramatic and absolute. The best way that I've found to deal with it, so far, is to just chalk it off as (as Spock would say) "interesting," and not worry about it.

Sometimes I've realized later, after looking at the "big picture," why it happened---and sometimes not. I found that either way, it didn't interfere with my goals in life, so I just considered it to be their business, and none of mine. And just kept on going along, and appreciating the good stuff.

Since I don't have any way of knowing the origin of the Stone Maps for certain, I tend to evaluate them by what I do know. So far, although they do correspond to the real estate, they don't seem to be treasure maps.

If I thought they were real, at this point in time, considering what all has turned up by (others) following them, if I were to try for the treasure, I would follow them in reverse. But that's a big if.

"Treasure maps never lead to treasure,
and 'X' never, ever, marks the spot!"
(Prior to finding the hidden tunnel in the floor, underneath a giant "X.")

---Professor Indiana Jones, Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade, 1989.


8)​

 

[Oroblanco]

EE THer wrote

There is the story that Travis copied them from a cloth map.

Just want to clarify here, the source that mentions a cloth map does not specify whether the cloth map was copied from the stones or vice versa, I had asked if it were not possible that the cloth map was the original; the source that mentions the cloth only says that a cloth duplicate exists (or did then) and that it was about the size of a pillowcase. The theory of Travis copying the cloth map onto the stones was my own speculation only, not a direct source statement.
Oroblanco

 

[EE THr]

Oro---

Thanks for correcting me on that.

By the way, considering the existence of a cloth map of that size, I would wonder a couple of things about it. Why would anyone make a copy so large? And why on cloth?

Maybe it's large because it's a direct tracing. And maybe they wanted a direct tracing so they would have exact measurements when using it. And cloth would be easier to carry, than stones, in the field.

But proportional accuracy can be maintained with size reduction, even by hand methods. And if accuracy were the reason for it being so large, then cloth would be a poor choice because it can stretch and distort, both while tracing it, and when unfolding and reading it. Whereas paper is easier to manage, and a large version would fold flatter than cloth, to put it into a manila envelop, or a folder, or even a drawer or safe.

And a smaller one that could be folded to shirt pocket size would be the handiest.

So, it would seem logical that a cloth map would probably be the original. Which would blend into the "stolen cloth map original" idea. This would allow for Travis' handiwork to account for the Stones, and still let them be "real." Or at least mostly based on a real map, even if they were altered.

But if the cloth was a copy, and Travis made the Stones, it's pretty much a dead end, I would imagine.

Just thinking out loud....

 

[Oroblanco]

Oro---

Thanks for correcting me on that.

By the way, considering the existence of a cloth map of that size, I would wonder a couple of things about it. Why would anyone make a copy so large? And why on cloth?

Maybe it's large because it's a direct tracing. And maybe they wanted a direct tracing so they would have exact measurements when using it. And cloth would be easier to carry, than stones, in the field.

But proportional accuracy can be maintained with size reduction, even by hand methods. And if accuracy were the reason for it being so large, then cloth would be a poor choice because it can stretch and distort, both while tracing it, and when unfolding and reading it. Whereas paper is easier to manage, and a large version would fold flatter than cloth, to put it into a manila envelop, or a folder, or even a drawer or safe.

And a smaller one that could be folded to shirt pocket size would be the handiest.

So, it would seem logical that a cloth map would probably be the original. Which would blend into the "stolen cloth map original" idea. This would allow for Travis' handiwork to account for the Stones, and still let them be "real." Or at least mostly based on a real map, even if they were altered.

But if the cloth was a copy, and Travis made the Stones, it's pretty much a dead end, I would imagine.

Just thinking out loud....

Didn't mean it as a "correction" per se, just thought that some of our readers might take our speculation as fact and then it has become a story when really all that source does say is that a cloth duplicate existed, and its size. No info as to whether it was copied from the stones or vice-versa. As to the reasons for a cloth duplicate, or stone duplicates of a cloth original, we are stuck in the world of speculation.

So far I have not seen anything to document the existence of the stone tablets prior to Travis Tumlinson, but perhaps someone can show us something? Thank you in advance,
Oroblanco

 

[wrmickel1]

Makes good since to me why carry around those big old stones kidda heavy. Mr Tumlinson was a law man on vacation with his wife
don't really think she lied too, Do Ya He told the truth, he found them where he said. That makes alot of since, follow the massacure
trail out of thier and you'll be pretty close to the place they were found. Someone made it out with indians on thier tail, lighten the load and
hit the trail for home. Keep the maps or keep what gold you got.

 

[gollum]

While I have to admit the possibility that the stone maps are fakes, I am not convinced yet.

Every time I think about the possibility of Travis carving them himself, I keep going back to the letter from Peck's Investigator. The letter in which the investigator tells about his discussions with one of Travis' close friends, in which the friend states that he remembers several times sitting with Travis alone looking at the two trail maps. Travis sticking his finger in that big hole on the lower trail stone and saying "If I could only find this spot, I would be a millionaire!"

I am not buying it yet.

Mike

 

[EE THr]

gollum---

Any ideas on why that particular hole is so much bigger than the others?

Or what it would mean to have any hole so much bigger than the rest?

 

[Hal Croves]

The "chain of custody" that I was writing about was before Travis took hold of the stone charts. I think that everyone knows their story once Travis passed away. If we can establish a profile of Travis, listing everything that is known about him, then we might find an overlooked clue or make a connection which would point towards the stones creator... if indeed it was not Travis.

The stone charts are NOT a hoax. They were made by tracing an aerial photograph that must date from circa 1930 to 194?... or just before Travis found the stones. Who had access to aerial photographs at this time? Any ideas?

 

[Springfield]

The "chain of custody" that I was writing about was before Travis took hold of the stone charts. I think that everyone knows their story once Travis passed away. If we can establish a profile of Travis, listing everything that is known about him, then we might find an overlooked clue or make a connection which would point towards the stones creator... if indeed it was not Travis.

The stone charts are NOT a hoax. They were made by tracing an aerial photograph that must date from circa 1930 to 194?... or just before Travis found the stones. Who had access to aerial photographs at this time? Any ideas?

Soil conservation government agencies and their ilk began using high resolution aerial photos extensively about the 1930's, and the photos were available to the general public for purchase. These photos were 'stereo pairs', sychronized photos taken by two cameras mounted on opposite airplane wings, and became the basis for producing topographic quad sheets. I've got a 24x36 SCS pair showing New Mexico rangeland from 1937. To answer your question - the photos could be purchased from various government agencies and of course the contour maps could be purchased from retailers anywhere.

 

[cactusjumper]

The "chain of custody" that I was writing about was before Travis took hold of the stone charts. I think that everyone knows their story once Travis passed away. If we can establish a profile of Travis, listing everything that is known about him, then we might find an overlooked clue or make a connection which would point towards the stones creator... if indeed it was not Travis.

The stone charts are NOT a hoax. They were made by tracing an aerial photograph that must date from circa 1930 to 194?... or just before Travis found the stones. Who had access to aerial photographs at this time? Any ideas?

Soil conservation government agencies and their ilk began using high resolution aerial photos extensively about the 1930's, and the photos were available to the general public for purchase. These photos were 'stereo pairs', sychronized photos taken by two cameras mounted on opposite airplane wings, and became the basis for producing topographic quad sheets. I've got a 24x36 SCS pair showing New Mexico rangeland from 1937. To answer your question - the photos could be purchased from various government agencies and of course the contour maps could be purchased from retailers anywhere.

I have had a set of those pictures for many years. They cover the Superstition Range. My Uncle, Chuck Ribaudo, had them originally.

What is great about them, is that you can make out old trails that are no longer common knowledge.

They were not needed, themselves, to make the Stone Maps. An ordinary topographic map would have been just fine.......along with an intimate knowledge of the western part of the range.

IMHO, unless someone confesses personal knowledge, along with some kind of documentation, there is no way to trace a "chain of custody" prior to Tumlinson.

Good luck with that line of research,

Joe

 

[gollum]

I have to go with Joe on this one.

My best guess on the pillowcase would be one of two possibilities:

1. Travis wanted something to carry back and forth from Oregon to Arizona that had all the information but not be so bulky.

2. Travis altered all the maps in such a way that no one would find anything based on the stone maps, and he made the pillowcase copy of the original stones that could be easily hidden. That way, if the stones were stolen, they would be useless.

Either scenario suggests that the stone maps are authentic. I can't think of a logical reason to make the copy if he had already made the hoax stones.

EE,

I can imagine a dozen things the big hole could mean, but there is nothing on the stone that gives any definite indication as to its meaning.

Mike

 

[Real de Tayopa Tropical Tramp]

Just being onery, but has anyone 'ever' established that the stones 'were specific' for the Superstitions? While I tend to believe so, stilllll??

I realize that they used everything from fish skins, animal hides, etc. but heavy stones were frankly impractical for that period and location.

Reeves again. the only one that could in any conceivable way. profit from their being foun, especailly where they were actually, supposedly, found..

Don Jose de La Mancha

 

[EE THr]

gollum---

Right. The Stone Maps don't label all the landmarks, or have a nice little "legend" down in one corner explaining all the types of markings. 8)

They don't even indicate what it is, that's supposed to be at the "end" of the trail.

But as for the extra large hole, although there are other holes, it is several times larger than any of the others. To me, this would indicate something outstandingly different from the rest. Something of particular prominence.

It could be something which is obviously (visually) far different from the rest of whatever the holes indicate, or it could be something which only a person with "inside" knowledge of the maps and their target, would know. If it's the latter, then it would be useless as a key point, to relate to the visible landscape or a cave, or a spring, or anything like that, to which the Map could be oriented.

But if it's not a secret marking, then it seems to attract attention as a major alignment feature of some kind. But what?

 

[EE THr]

Just being onery, but has anyone 'ever' established that the stones 'were specific' for the Superstitions? While I tend to believe so, stilllll??

I realize that they used everything from fish skins, animal hides, etc. but heavy stones were frankly impractical for that period and location.

Reeves again. the only one that could in any conceivable way. profit from their being foun, especailly where they were actually, supposedly, found..

Don Jose de La Mancha

It appears that the only way to establish what area the Stones represent, is to compare what they seem to depict, with one's best guess, and see if they match-up or not.

But the only way to then know for sure if you've got it right, is to find whatever it is that they lead to. Since they don't say what they lead to, even that would be a little iffy. However, if a person stumbled accross an amazing treasure, at or near where he figured the intended target to be, the rest would be relatively moot at that point!

 

[cactusjumper]

EE,

You might want to try searching the north side of the main mountain ridge. Considering the many things that are pointed out by the Stone Maps, my guess is that you will find a cave in that area.

Tom Kollenborn has ridden up that side of the mountain a number of times. I know that Greg Davis accompanied him at least once. Greg took a lot of pictures on that trip, wrote down the GPS location and put them all in a three ring binder.

They were right on the Stone Map trail as it's shown on my map. That map was created over 40-years ago, long before I knew either man. Just another coincidence, I'm sure.

For anyone who may decide to take a look.....be careful!

The obvious thing they lead to, is the center of the heart. As I have posted many times, with pictures, that is where the Stone Map Trail ends. It may be that some secret code points to another spot, but I have my doubts about that.

Joe

Thinking back on it, I believe Tom told me he made those rides onto the main mountain, in search of Senner's Gold.

 

[cactusjumper]

One way to look at the large and small hole on the map, is to read it as meaning a small entrance leading to a larger cave. That would be exactly what Harry LaFrance described. If that's the case, there may have been a fortune in gold bars in the cave.

Good luck,

Joe