Understanding the Certificate of Authenticity (CoA)

[OBXmetalDet]

I recently read a reply that involved talking about the CoA on a thread posted by the famous Black Bart. As I thought more about the CoA, this really seemed to put a lot of things together. If I understand how the CoA works, I can see how it prevents the average person from profiting from treasure hunting.

Therefore, I thought it might be beneficial to start a thread about the CoA in an attempt to bring everything together so that the big picture will become clearer.
There are some things about the CoA that I believe I understand (and I want to make sure) and some things regarding the CoA that I have questions about.
For clarity I’m going to list my concerns point by point that way it will be easier for anybody to reference to any given point(s).

1. Who issues a CoA? Is it the state?

2. In order to be granted a CoA for your find, is it true to say that you have to licensed by the state or you need to have a permit issued to you by the state?

3. In Florida, detecting on the beach is legal. Let’s say I found a Spanish coin at Vero Beach from the 1715 fleet. Now I want to get a CoA for my find. How can I do that?

4. Suppose somebody (a corrupt person) who is licensed to dive on a leased site comes to the state of Florida with a replica coin seeking to get a CoA for that. In this case a CoA should not be granted because it’s a replica, but given all the corruption I am learning about, surely there are cases where a CoA has been granted when it should not have been, maybe because the person granting the CoA was paid to look the other way (corruption at its finest). Are there any know cases like this? If so, wouldn’t this make the CoA unreliable?

5a. Is this how the process works:

License or permit granted by the state > State issues CoA > Sell artifact at full market value

5b. As I understand it, people are not supposed to remove any artifacts that are older than 50 years old from underwater (the beach is apparently ok since you’re allowed to detect the beach). If somebody did remove an artifact from underwater that was older than 50 years old (and there were not licensed by the state), when they go to sell that artifact, is it true to say they will need a CoA to get the full market value of that artifact?

5c. In this case since the person wasn’t licensed (or didn’t have a permit) they would not have been granted a CoA. And because they would not be granted a CoA they would not get the full market value of their find. Do I have this right?

6. In essence, the requirement of a CoA (if you want to sell your artifact for full market value) ultimately has the effect (and probably the intention) of preventing ordinary people from profiting off of sunken treasure finds, because to get a CoA you need to be licensed (or have a permit?) which is at the full discretion of the state and the state will probably not grant you a license since they don’t want you in the game. Is this how it works?

 

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[Blackfoot58]

I recently read a reply that involved talking about the CoA on a thread posted by the famous Black Bart. As I thought more about the CoA, this really seemed to put a lot of things together. If I understand how the CoA works, I can see how it prevents the average person from profiting from treasure hunting.

Therefore, I thought it might be beneficial to start a thread about the CoA in an attempt to bring everything together so that the big picture will become clearer.
There are some things about the CoA that I believe I understand (and I want to make sure) and some things regarding the CoA that I have questions about.
For clarity I’m going to list my concerns point by point that way it will be easier for anybody to reference to any given point(s).

1. Who issues a CoA? Is it the state?

2. In order to be granted a CoA for your find, is it true to say that you have to licensed by the state or you need to have a permit issued to you by the state?

3. In Florida, detecting on the beach is legal. Let’s say I found a Spanish coin at Vero Beach from the 1715 fleet. Now I want to get a CoA for my find. How can I do that?

4. Suppose somebody (a corrupt person) who is licensed to dive on a leased site comes to the state of Florida with a replica coin seeking to get a CoA for that. In this case a CoA should not be granted because it’s a replica, but given all the corruption I am learning about, surely there are cases where a CoA has been granted when it should not have been, maybe because the person granting the CoA was paid to look the other way (corruption at its finest). Are there any know cases like this? If so, wouldn’t this make the CoA unreliable?

5a. Is this how the process works:

License or permit granted by the state > State issues CoA > Sell artifact at full market value

5b. As I understand it, people are not supposed to remove any artifacts that are older than 50 years old from underwater (the beach is apparently ok since you’re allowed to detect the beach). If somebody did remove an artifact from underwater that was older than 50 years old (and there were not licensed by the state), when they go to sell that artifact, is it true to say they will need a CoA to get the full market value of that artifact?

5c. In this case since the person wasn’t licensed (or didn’t have a permit) they would not have been granted a CoA. And because they would not be granted a CoA they would not get the full market value of their find. Do I have this right?

6. In essence, the requirement of a CoA (if you want to sell your artifact for full market value) ultimately has the effect (and probably the intention) of preventing ordinary people from profiting off of sunken treasure finds, because to get a CoA you need to be licensed (or have a permit?) which is at the full discretion of the state and the state will probably not grant you a license since they don’t want you in the game. Is this how it works?

So, say you found it on the beach. Anything can wash up…

 

[OBXmetalDet]

So, say you found it on the beach. Anything can wash up…

How would you get a CoA for your find?

 

[ToddsPoint]

For Indian artifacts, people that provide coa certificates are giving you their opinion. Some claim to be experts when they are not. A portion of them are just scammers trying to make a quick buck. I have little faith in certificates for Indian artifacts.
I know nothing about certificates for other items.

 

[ARC]

Ok... its like this...
ANYONE... repeat anyone... can issue /make / etc a COA.

COA's are basically just a piece of paper stating WHAT the item is.
It carries no weight UNLESS... repeat UNLESS.... said piece of paper is signed by person OR persons whose opinion DOES carry weight.

Simple as that.

 

[fishstick]

They're a joke in the rock world!!! (arrowheads that is)

 

[ARC]

PS... i forgot to address you "found on a beach Spanish coin" type scenario....

Ok... So if you want it to be looked at AS LEGIT 100% by others... for sale purposes or otherwise... you must have someone WHO HAS the "weight" behind their name to "authenticate" said coin as being what it appears to be etc
So... you would have to either send it off to said person or company like NGC or PCGS or ICG.

They would assess said coins attributes and assets.... if any... and issue a COA in the form of paperwork OR slabbed and labeled coin.
For a fee of course.

 

[Blak bart]

You can make your own COA, and I know a beach hunter who does for his finds. The salvor who recovers the treasure usally makes a COA, to verify the find. The COA by nature is a descriptive document that states the facts about the find. When it was found and how, and usally a brief description of the shipwreck and history of the piece in question. It will list the salvage company and its signed by owner or officials that are part of the operation. In the case of a beach hunter it's the same, only there is no official company....just the salvage is listed. Template forms can be found, and some really fancy certificates can be made. Now also remember this......a COA , is also a great document for the IRS to find a paper trail when it come to enforcing tax collection.....no receipts but you sold the coin with a COA stating all the details, and documenting a transaction, so could probably be used in a tax case against the salvor as a record of transaction.

It is all very shady if you ask me, and I know salvors at this very moment that use blank COAs that have been pre signed by salvors. I was just recently offered a blank COA that was signed by Jack haskins. I was told we would fill out all the details and leave the date of recovery blank !! I won't name names, but I was shocked......it would be totally false, and would give credit for my coins recovery to jack haskins !! I love jack, may he rest in piece, and to see a stack of blank COAs with his signature on them was very disheartening. He absolutely had to know what he was doing at the time....and its just disappointing. Then I realized the COA can be really important, or just B.S. on a fancy piece of paper. Why in the hell would I want to give credit to someone else for finding my treasure.....I will make my own COAs, and state that I was the salvor, and my finds were made in a legal fashion under no contract with the state, and found between the low tide mark, and the heal of the dune.....in my case there was no dune....just the road bed of US-1. I will have mine notarized also

So what I've found out in this very confusing topic is that COAs vary widely, and can be super official looking, but are often false in origin, and sometimes not factual concerning the veracity of the find. Some are very well respected, and others can be a complete lie. When I asked about why I would do that....the answer was simple.....if you want to sell 1733 treasure, then a jack haskins COA virtually assures you will get the best price, and everyone knows his name.....no one knows you yet !!🤥🤥🤥

 

[ARC]

ANY item of potential value and rarity MUST be assessed AND documented by a person OR persons / company that has a reputation of expert opinion(s) of said item.

Everything from baseball cards to comics to coins.
In order to achieve full market value it must be assessed.
Otherwise... its just YOUR word... which in this world does not carry ANY weight to a stranger.

Without it... myself or anyone with any common sense will pay only bottom dollar value IF thought to be true what one has stated.

 

[Blak bart]

i specifically filmed a youtube video that gives away the location of my finds. There will be no doubt about the legality, and authenticity of my finds.....part of that documenting is right here on t-net for all to see.

 

[ARC]

i specifically filmed a youtube video that gives away the location of my finds. There will be no doubt about the legality, and authenticity of my finds.....part of that documenting is right here on t-net for all to see.

This still carries little to no weight in the grand scheme of things.
No offense Bart.

 

[ARC]

To some it may... including me... but to anyone who is buying on the upper echelon levels... nope... nada... zip... zilch... nothing.

 

[Blak bart]

It's a new digital world, and im not abiding by any traditional sense of treasurehunting tradition....if you need proof there are many ways to document things today that the old timers didn't have.....social media, internet, etc.etc.etc if people want to know the circumstances behind the find its here on t-net, it's on instagram, and it's on YouTube!! Besides the fancy COA with MY NAME ON IT NOT JACK HASKINS !! Its a new world, andthings are different from the old timers days, and to be truthful many of the old-timers that are still here carry large black clouds over them, and still have friction with the state. Modern technology allows the average beach guy to do the end around move on the state and big salvage companies that cry and whine about the beach guys and there finds and sales !!

 

[ARC]

It's a new digital world, and im not abiding by any traditional sense of treasurehunting tradition....if you need proof there are many ways to document things today that the old timers didn't have.....social media, internet, etc.etc.etc if people want to know the circumstances behind the find its here on t-net, it's on instagram, and it's on YouTube!! Besides the fancy COA with MY NAME ON IT NOT JACK HASKINS !! Its a new world, andthings are different from the old timers days, and to be truthful many of the old-timers that are still here carry large black clouds over them, and still have friction with the state. Modern technology allows the average beach guy to do the end around move on the state and big salvage companies that cry and whine about the beach guys and there finds and sales !!

Well if you think that the scams are not rampant with staged finds etc ... think again.
This is the norm / new way.

 

[Blak bart]

This still carries little to no weight in the grand scheme of things.
No offense Bart.

That is your opinion, and when you dig up treasure you will certainly have to think about all of it and make the best decision for yourself....like I said....I could have a real nice COA from Jack haskins and it would be a lie, and rob me of the find. I would have to lie and say I bought the coin from jack haskins and im reselling it....no thanks. I can also make a really nice COA of my own too. After all....I am a treasure hunter just like Jack was !!

 

[ARC]

To some it may... including me... but to anyone who is buying on the upper echelon levels... nope... nada... zip... zilch... nothing.

BUT... with that said... if you offered a coin to me to buy from that video.
Still only worth "cull" double spot price if random strike with little detail.

A quick hundo or so for silver ones ... again with unknown mint etc.

Sorry

***ARC RUNS BEHIND RUM BARREL AND HIDES***

NOW... Full beautiful strike with detail is a whole other situation.

 

[ARC]

I know that down there in the Keys people get star struck Cob Crazy brained... also east coast.

But in the rest of the world your gonna have to go somewhere far or online for any real prices.

And without COA... you hoping for a "chancer".

 

[ARC]

I have a cob that was authenticated by MANY experts...... that under XRF tests bunk.
Its as good as they get... and no known other examples in existence.

 

[Blak bart]

Are you saying that if I make my own COA, that's notarized and truthful with more than three other digital sources backing and verifying the find, and multiple people that witnessed the recoveries that my COA is less acceptable than any others ? It's the name ARC....thats what make the COA. are you reputable and known as honest in the treasure world. Just because you don't know the name on the COA, dosent mean the guy signing it isn't a treasurehunter......im the treasure hunter, and im stating in MY COA the facts details and circumstances of the find.....I don't need any coin grading to verify it.....I salvaged it !! Me....the not so well known treasure hunter !! Black Bart at the bottom of the COA !! this is how you make a name in the game !! I don't need fishers name, or Marty meylach, or Carl fismar, or even my deceased old friend Jack haskins !! Im BlackBart. You can check me out, and make a decision from there about my treasure and if you'd like to purchase it....my story is out there....alot of it on your thread RCT !! so in the end it's like you say.....if you think I'm a scam and my COA is not up to snuff, we'll then your free to pass on my beautiful coins.....others will believe, and others will buy !! In the mean time we continue the hunt, document the finds, build your name as a hunter, and when it comes time to sell.....you can except my COA or not.....thats the business!!

 

[ARC]

Just remember.... fake cobs ARE found in the ground too.

Heck Bart... for all anyone REALLY knows... other than you that is... Someone threw em out their window on the way down the road because they were fakes from the Fisher scandal.

Which ARE real silver... real strikes etc... just not real cobs from any wrecks.